Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[redleghunter]

Jesus said you were wrong in the verse I quoted.

I showed you the standard for our works to save is perfection.

I also stated only Christ meets that standard. Then showed you the Righteousness of God is a gift through Jesus Christ.

You never responded to those points. So the good you speak of is not good enough and never will be without having the righteousness of God through the Incarnate Divine Logos.

 

[ripple the car]

All of it comes from Christ. I don’t know how much more Ephesians 2:10 can be emphasized. God equips us.

Actually, we would agree that this, too, comes from Christ. Just that what we do as a Christian along with faith in Christ is also a means by which we are saved by Him.

 

[Cis.jd]

Present your case then to support your assertions.

i see many have presented verses already and obviously these are not acceptable to you so why repeat them? Since the scriptural case is ineffective to you then lets see how rational your views are through philosophical perspectives? just read my second paragraph and lets see what possible reason/rational you have to support "faith alone".

Edit: take it this way. If your scriptural views are correct then why is the opposing side (who is also showing scriptural views) more rational?

 

[Jonaitis]

So much resentment toward Protestantism from people who only hear one side of things. :/

 

[redleghunter]

OK, lets clear all that up. do you believe we need to do good works, and be good like Christ stated in order to make it to heaven/avoid hell?

Children of wrath will be judged.

Children of God are saved by the Grace of God.

What we do demonstrates one or the other.

The very fact you use the word “need” shows you believe our actions keep us Justified therefore no longer apart from works.

Ephesians 2:10 is clear those who are in Christ are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Would you address this please. What does workmanship mean, what does prepared beforehand mean and most importantly what does that we would walk in them mean?

 

[Not David]

Faith is the thing that bring you to God, but it is not the only thing that remains. Also, Paul always talks about "works" as the works of the Jewish law, that's why he mentioned circumcision

 

[redleghunter]

Actually, we would agree that this, too, comes from Christ. Just that what we do as a Christian along with faith in Christ is also a means by which we are saved by Him.

Christ is the Vine and we are the branches. I think that might apply to what you say above. John 15:5 says we cannot do anything without Him.

Faith truly implies faithfulness. Meaning we truly do what/Who we believe in.

 

[redleghunter]

Faith is the thing that bring you to God, but it is not the only thing that remains. Also, Paul always talks about "works" as the works of the Jewish law, that's why he mentioned circumcision

Not in Ephesians which was a Gentile audience.

And equating works of the Law with only circumcision does not work given when he mentions the Law he means all of it. Including the moral principles of the Law.

 

[ripple the car]

Christ is the Vine and we are the branches. I think that might apply to what you say above. John 15:5 says we cannot do anything without Him.

Faith truly implies faithfulness. Meaning we truly do what/Who we believe in.

Not necessarily. They sound alike, but one can have faith in Christ to save them, and yet disobey Him, too.

 

[redleghunter]

i see many have presented verses already and obviously these are not acceptable to you so why repeat them? Since the scriptural case is ineffective to you then lets see how rational your views are through philosophical perspectives? just read my second paragraph and lets see what possible reason/rational you have to support "faith alone".

Edit: take it this way. If your scriptural views are correct then why is the opposing side (who is also showing scriptural views) more rational?

It lacks an expository examination.

Here’s the rationale for Justification by faith alone....it’s Apolstolic teaching.

Paul says we are saved by Grace. He says if we add works to that it is no longer Grace. For him that was axiomatic.

It is faith alone because there is nothing else and nothing else mentioned.

 

[Not David]

Christ is the Vine and we are the branches. I think that might apply to what you say above. John 15:5 says we cannot do anything without Him.

Faith truly implies faithfulness. Meaning we truly do what/Who we believe in.

Well, there is a verse in Romans about the vines being cut off so it helps my point

 

[Not David]

It lacks an expository examination.

Here’s the rationale for Justification by faith alone....it’s Apolstolic teaching.

Paul says we are saved by Grace. He says if we add works to that it is no longer Grace. For him that was axiomatic.

It is faith alone because there is nothing else and nothing else mentioned.

That's a big assumption

 

[redleghunter]

Not necessarily. They sound alike, but one can have faith in Christ to save them, and yet disobey Him, too.

I don’t think your church supports sinless perfection. Yes that is the goal to strive each day but only Christ was sinless and perfect in the flesh.

Or is your point as long as we are obedient more than disobedient this is good enough?

 

[redleghunter]

Well, there is a verse in Romans about the vines being cut off so it helps my point

I thought you made that argument that was all about Israel and Gentiles when we discussed election.

Can’t have it both ways. I think John 15:1-10 would be more appropriate. We can discuss that if you want because Jesus did say you must abide in Him to produce fruit.

 

[Cis.jd]

It lacks an expository examination.

Here’s the rationale for Justification by faith alone....it’s Apolstolic teaching.

Paul says we are saved by Grace. He says if we add works to that it is no longer Grace. For him that was axiomatic.

It is faith alone because there is nothing else and nothing else mentioned.

ah no, he never said that. Not the way you probably understood it. This wasn't a rational either just your interpretation of what Paul meant.

Here is an example. Back in the WW2 with the Nazi's holding/murdering Jews in a concentration camp. There where a few nazi's who were christian, Hitler claimed he was a christian... so are they saved by their faith alone regardless of stuffing jews in ovens?

 

[redleghunter]

That's a big assumption

That is actually a précis for Romans.

I can expand if you want.

 

[redleghunter]

ah no, he never said that. Not the way you probably understood it. This wasn't a rational either just your interpretation of what Paul meant

Well you are offering absolutely nothing in rebuttal other than “nah.”

 

[Cis.jd]

Well you are offering absolutely nothing in rebuttal other than “nah.”

Maybe you should respond then to what is in the bottom instead of pretending there is no rebuttal.

 

[Not David]

I thought you made that argument that was all about Israel and Gentiles when we discussed election.

Can’t have it both ways. I think John 15:1-10 would be more appropriate. We can discuss that if you want because Jesus did say you must abide in Him to produce fruit.

Romans mentioned the letter was addressed to the ones who were already justified so how can it talk about Jews and Gentiles? Also the verse you talk about John mentioned being cut off but it would be against your Calvinist view that once one enters into the Covenant, he/she would never leave

 

[Not David]

That is actually a précis for Romans.

I can expand if you want.

I don't mind, I practically had a thread on Romans debunking faith alone