Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[Varangian Christian]

I guess you are Roman Catholic.

Nope, definitely not. Im Orthodox (or will be once i can actually reach one of their churches).

The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East, though disagreeing on Christology, Mariology, ecclesiology, and what Church history is and looks like, all agree that our salvation is a journey of faith and works in Christ. That must mean something. Even 400 years in, they all agreed on this, and still do. Just saying.

Orthodox and Catholics have some major differences on this issue though (created grace, works as merits, etc). But yea, it is what the Church always believed until the protestant schisming.

Do you really think we can just toss out what Christ clearly said there about being good...just like that? If so. why?

Huh? Im against the side that say works are useless. Christ does indeed want us to be good and we must participate in our salvation.

 

[redleghunter]

The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East, though disagreeing on Christology, Mariology, ecclesiology, and what Church history is and looks like, all agree that our salvation is a journey of faith and works in Christ. That must mean something. Even 400 years in, they all agreed on this, and still do. Just saying.

There’s a beauty to that journey. As long as on our journey we realize the following:

Romans 5: NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Orthodox and Catholics have some major differences on this issue though (created grace, works as merits, etc). But yea, it is what the Church always believed until the great schisming.

But on the basic understanding of our salvation being a journey of faith and works in Christ, we can agree. It seems like if five different Apostolic Churches, while disagreeing on the nature of Christ, Church history, and Mariology, still agree that Sola Fidé is an inherently incorrect reading of Scripture, that's pretty big.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Do you mean the fruits of being in Christ?

I mean things that are mandatory other than proclaiming we have Faith... faith in action, not just saying it....that is true faith, that IS faith. Doing as Christ said to do is true faith/believing.

I have faith in Christ so I believe him when he says he will have my hide if I don't do as he says right there. How can I claim I have faith in Christ if I ignore/don't believe what he clearly tells me to do, and do it?

It's so clear to me, I can't believe we are even having this conversation.

 

[Varangian Christian]

There’s a beauty to that journey. As long as on our journey we realize the following:

Romans 5: NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

None of those contradict what the Church has taught since the beginning. Please read the link i gave you and provide a counter argument to the Orthodox view.
Salvation Is Indeed By Grace

Also i bet you guys would give great insight. Cant let this turn into a RC/Prot fight: @ArmyMatt @~Anastasia~

But on the basic understanding of our salvation being a journey of faith and works in Christ, we can agree. It seems like if five different Apostolic Churches, while disagreeing on the nature of Christ, Church history, and Mariology, still agree that Sola Fidé is an inherently incorrect reading of Scripture, that's pretty big.

Oh yea, definitely agreed.

 

[redleghunter]

But on the basic understanding of our salvation being a journey of faith and works in Christ, we can agree. It seems like if five different Apostolic Churches, while disagreeing on the nature of Christ, Church history, and Mariology, still agree that Sola Fidé is an inherently incorrect reading of Scripture, that's pretty big.

Romans chapters 3-5 is clear we are Justified by faith apart from works.

I quoted this is the OP showing works in relation to our redemption:

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[redleghunter]

I mean things that are mandatory other than proclaiming we have Faith... faith in action, not just saying it....that is true faith, that IS faith. Doing as Christ said to do is true faith/believing.

I have faith in Christ so I believe him when he says he will have my hide if I don't do as he says right there. How can I claim I have faith in Christ if I ignore/don't believe what he clearly tells me to do, and do it?

It's so clear to me, I can't believe we are even having this conversation.

Your straw man is that there is an argument in the OP where there is faithlessness in service to Christ.

Here’s what I quoted:

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Romans chapters 3-5 is clear we are Justified by faith apart from works.

I quoted this is the OP showing works in relation to our redemption:

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

My friend, we can not merit having faith, which is a gift from God. But faith can not be the end of our journey. Our journey, to end well, must involve our cooperation with God's Will, and our living a life in union with Christ on all matters hidden and visible.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Huh? Im against the side that say works are useless. Christ does indeed want us to be good and we must participate in our salvation.

That was the idea I first got, so I must have misunderstood one of your posts....apologies.

 

[Varangian Christian]

That was the idea I first got, so I must have misunderstood one of your posts....apologies.

NP man. I do that all to often myself, lol.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Your straw man is that there is an argument in the OP where there is faithlessness in service to Christ.

Here’s what I quoted:

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

OK, lets clear all that up. do you believe we need to do good works, and be good like Christ stated in order to make it to heaven/avoid hell?

 

[redleghunter]

My friend, we can not merit having faith, which is a gift from God. But faith can not be the end of our journey. Our journey, to end well, must involve our cooperation with God's Will, and our living a life in union with Christ on all matters hidden and visible.

Is the OP in conflict with living holy lives? It’s not.

I am making the point the NT does not support works meriting our Justification.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Is the OP in conflict with living holy lives? It’s not.

I am making the point the NT does not support works meriting our Justification.

Ok, Red, but a Catholic and an Orthodox Christian would say that our living of holy lives is itself a part of our salvation, not simply something springing from our salvation as a fruit of faith.

 

[redleghunter]

My friend, we can not merit having faith, which is a gift from God. But faith can not be the end of our journey. Our journey, to end well, must involve our cooperation with God's Will, and our living a life in union with Christ on all matters hidden and visible.

You speak of sanctification if I am correct.

 

[Cis.jd]

Really it’s not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We have to become His workmanship.

Marty and Frank discuss it.

I think the problem with most Protestant teachings such as this is that they don't look at the bigger picture. it is always that "one sentence" in a verse that automatically sets their views. You can't just ignore the other verses that speak about works, and how God judged according to works. With certain teachings, it takes a set of verses to spell out the entirety.

We can argue verses all day, so instead let us look at it in a much logical/realistic way. As history has shown, we've had christians who weren't good people.. they were so drunk in their vanity's and ego that they couldn't see how horrible they were as people in comparison to someone who isn't a christian. It wouldn't fair for God to just give an auto-save to the believer yet not take in any regards to a non-believer who is a better person but just is ignorant of God.

Faith alone shows the whole redundancy of good and evil, because why be good to others anyway if faith in God is all we need? It's pointless to feed the hungry, have compassion to others, and whatever is that is considered "the right thing" because apparently, God doesn't care about your works -- it doesn't get you anywhere.

 

[redleghunter]

Ok, Red, but a Catholic and an Orthodox Christian would say that our living of holy lives is itself a part of our salvation, not simply something springing from our salvation as a fruit of faith.

All of it comes from Christ. I don’t know how much more Ephesians 2:10 can be emphasized. God equips us.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I am making the point the NT does not support works meriting our Justification.

Jesus said you were wrong in the verse I quoted. Then the verse including the lists of sins also says you are wrong, just as the following does:

James 2:24

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

How does an intelligent man just skip right by those as if they aren't there? It's beyond me.

 

[redleghunter]

I think the problem with most Protestant teachings such as this is that they don't look at the bigger picture. it is always that "one sentence" in a verse that automatically sets their views. You can't just ignore the other verses that speak about works, and how God judged according to works. With certain teachings, it takes a set of verses to spell out the entirety.

We can argue verses all day, so instead let us look at it in a much logical/realistic way. As history has shown, we've had christians who weren't good people.. they were so drunk in their vanity's and ego that they couldn't see how horrible they were as people in comparison to someone who isn't a christian. It wouldn't fair for God to just give an auto-save to the believer yet not take in any regards to a non-believer who is a better person but just is ignorant of God.

Faith alone shows the whole redundancy of good and evil, because why be good to others anyway if faith in God is all we need? It's pointless to feed the hungry, have compassion to others, and whatever is that is considered "the right thing" because apparently, God doesn't care about your works -- it doesn't get you anywhere.

Present your case then to support your assertions.

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus said you were wrong in the verse I quoted. Then the verse including the lists of sins also says you are wrong, just as the following does:

James 2:24

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

How does an intelligent man just skip right by those as if they aren't there? It's beyond me.

You just established your own contradiction. When in fact James is saying what I am saying in the OP. We do according to what we believe in.

 

[anna ~ grace]

You speak of sanctification if I am correct.

Ok, so, I am describing what a Catholic/Orthodox Christian would describe as an essential part of our salvation walk, and what many Protestants describe / think of as Sactification following salvation.

But we would say that this journey of works and faith is a part of our salvation, not something that springs naturally from saving faith alone. Because frankly, in many cases, it doesn't. Some definitely have faith. No doubt. Strong faith. But horrible works. Look at Martin Luther.