Really? No threads about the Gillette ad yet?

[Redac]

Do you also complain when non-whites are depicted in a negative light?

In what way would that be relevant?

 

[Sparagmos]

In what way would that be relevant?

Because if you dismissed the same type of concern from people of color, or it never bothered you when non-whites were depicted negatively it would make your concern for how whites are depicted questionable.

 

[Redac]

Because if you dismissed the same type of concern from people of color, or it never bothered you when non-whites were depicted negatively it would make your concern for how whites are depicted questionable.

"Questionable" how exactly?

 

[Sparagmos]

"Questionable" how exactly?

It would indicate a preference for whites. So what is the answer to my question?

 

[Redac]

It would indicate a preference for whites.

I reject that that would be inherently questionable or negative.

So what is the answer to my question?

Do I complain? Depends, but not as much, no. There are plenty of people who will do that. Do I like negative depictions of other groups, particularly if they're untrue? Not particularly, no, but I don't react the same way because they aren't depictions of the group I find myself a part of, and thus aren't as personal in quite the same way.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm not trying to make myself seem virtuous. I think men who believe it is okay to grab a girls' butt need to change that behaviour CERTAINLY doesn't make me think that I am virtuous.
Trust me. You toss that label at me every time we discuss this; it's tiring. The thing I'm trying to avoid is labels so the focus would be on the issue instead of it (apparently) being about me being self righteous.

The funny thing is that I didn't realize you had a good example of virtue signaling in another thread before I brought it up in this one. You may have noticed a poster in another thread of yours posting little memes on racism. It's a bit of an odd response given the context...almost as if they wanted to establish that they aren't racist just in case someone might have taken their posts that way.

I don't think there's some universal reason why people do it....but I suspect that in some cases, it's nothing more than to promote a sort of "in-group vs out-group" mentality. For example, the national anthem protests seemed to be nothing more than that. If we're all being honest, kneeling during the anthem won't do anything to reduce police brutality/racial profiling/unjustified shootings....or whatever it was supposedly about. What it did do though...was virtue signal to a national audience Colin's almost universally agreed upon opinion that "police brutality is wrong". Is that a brave or unique opinion to have? No....I'd bet across the board, white or black, Republican or Democrat, any simple survey will reveal an overwhelming disapproval of police brutality.

What was the reaction though? If you're an NFL player....you better start kneeling or people might think you're for police brutality or racist or something. If you're a fan? You better support his protest or people might think you're racist....and so on and so on...

There's so many examples of this in recent memory that it's hard to even list them all.

But all that aside...what if I did. What if I DID think I was a better person? How would that affect the quality of the message?

Great question....

For starters, it has nothing to do with the message....can we agree on that? You can think you're morally better than someone....it doesn't change the validity of the discussion of "toxic masculinity" one tiny bit.

What it does though, is impede any genuine dialogue. Instead of discussing the merits of "toxic masculinity"....you end up questioning the morality of anyone who disagrees with your "morally superior" position. If you don't see the problem with that, it's probably because this has become such a common tactic for the left that I doubt most liberals even understand why it's invalid. Think way back to when Black Lives Matter was getting big....anyone who disagreed with the group's message was labeled a racist. It didn't matter if they ever said anything racist at all....the argument was that someone would only disagree with BLM if they somehow thought black lives didn't matter (which is something I've never heard anyone say).

The left has been retreating from logical and reasonable arguments to moral and emotional ones. It's a dishonest, and hypocritical tactic. We can talk about the merits of toxic masculinity as an idea....or we can discuss our personal moral opinions...but don't pretend they are the same thing.

Which behaviours in the ad did you specifically think should be continuing unabated? Are there any that could occur with less frequency?

Let's just start with the idea that "toxic masculinity" is a real thing and not an umbrella term invented by man-hating feminists to describe anything they don't like about men.

Is there any validity to the idea that "masculinity" in our society is associated with being a violent, bullying, mysoginistic sexual predator? Do we at least have a study or two showing this to be true? Or should I just take Gillette's and your word for it?

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

I'm surprised at how difficult it has been for some men to take a moment and reflect on how they treat women. More than a few just seem to be all up in arms about an advert that suggests grabbing womens' butts or speaking condescendingly towards them is not some inaliienable right.

I'm sorry, but the broadness of the brush bothers me - can you imagine the uproar if the same need for contrition for your sins (even when they're not your sins) were applied to any other demographic?

If I wanted to be preached at then I know a number of priests who would do as good a job, and probably throw in tea and cake.
If I want to remove my facial hair (I haven't in the last decade) then there are a wide variety of manufacturers whose product I can chose from.
If I wanted to buy cheap-to-manufacture razors for several thousand percent of the manufacturing cost that don't last very long and leave my face looking like chopped liver then Gillette aren't difficult to find.

 

[A_Thinker]

The funny thing is that I didn't realize you had a good example of virtue signaling in another thread before I brought it up in this one. You may have noticed a poster in another thread of yours posting little memes on racism. It's a bit of an odd response given the context...almost as if they wanted to establish that they aren't racist just in case someone might have taken their posts that way.

Accusing others of "virtue-signaling" is nothing more than a way of evading any hint that there might be room for your own personal growth.

Wouldn't you agree that men should be "good examples" for one another ? Wasn't anybody is your life a good example for you ... who articulated and modeled attitudes and behaviors that they felt were important ? Or did you grow up with no role models, at every point, clawing out your own sense of virtue ?

 

[A_Thinker]

If we're all being honest, kneeling during the anthem won't do anything to reduce police brutality/racial profiling/unjustified shootings....or whatever it was supposedly about.

I think that you're mistaken.

Colin knelt because we kept seeing video of black men being killed by police. Whether this is do to an escalating problem ... or the fact that civilians were capturing the events on cell-phone cameras is up for debate. But there is no question that we were SEEING more of it.

We also saw police officers, largely, not being penalized for these killing events. Over and over again.

So ... black people protested ... and it seemed to do no good.

So ... Colin decided to take the knee ... hoping that dong so would help to decrease the incidence of us SEEING black men being killed by police (on video).

Out of the protests (kneeling and otherwise), I would say, came the call for increased video-graphy of police encounters (i.e. dash-cams, body-cams, etc). That is a good thing.

And, for what ever reasons, we are SEEING LESS black men being killed by police (on video).

(According to FBI records, there was a spike of 50 more police killings of black men in 2015, ... which has since abated, and continues to decrease annually.)

For that, I am grateful to the protestors, Colin included ...

 

[A_Thinker]

The left has been retreating from logical and reasonable arguments to moral and emotional ones.

And the right hasn't been doing the same thing ?

Trump's election was not on any basis of logic, ... but on emotional cues fanned by the leaders of the Right for years ...

 

[A_Thinker]

If I wanted to be preached at then I know a number of priests who would do as good a job, and probably throw in tea and cake.

One of the first things I said in this thread ... is that men don't like to be told what and what not to do. Men also don't like to be preached at. That is why there are decidedly fewer of them sitting in church pews on any given Sunday.

Of course, Jesus said that He only did what the Father told Him to do.

I suppose that might be referred to as virtue-signalling ...

 

[iluvatar5150]

What's really toxic is the sense of entitlement that underlies the catcalling and hitting on women, and really, many of these behaviors.

Perhaps you forgot what you wrote.

I didn't forget. The object of that sentence is "the sense of entitlement", not "hitting on women". I'll cop to screw up the wording earlier in the post where I said "It's not merely the desire to approach a woman that's toxic" but meant "It's not the mere desire to approach women that's toxic", which does change the meaning of that specific phrase, but the rest of what I wrote should've made it quite clear that I don't think hitting on women was automatically toxic if it's done in an appropriate manner and context.

What I'm addressing here is this bizarre notion that the advertisement addresses....where women seem to think that that they can step out their front door, into public, and they have some sort of right to never face any unwanted interactions with the public.

What the rest of us are noting is the bizarre notion that men seem to think that they have a right to say whatever they want to a woman and have her be receptive to it.

And I'll note that you described those interactions as being unwanted by the woman. That's part of the point - communicating to guys that there's a strong chance that what they perceive as an innocent approach is, in reality, not wanted. If your actions are not wanted in a particular situation and you continue to do them, yes, you're exhibiting a sense of entitlement.

If anything, I think the sense of entitlement is coming from those who think they should get to control the terms of all human interactions they have.

I don't see how approaching someone without concern as to whether or not they want to be approached in that manner is anything but controlling the terms.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

So what's causing it? Demonic possession?

What, a guy wanting to approach a woman and ask her out? I would chalk it up to nature and attraction for a substantial portion of it. "I'm a man so she owes me some of her time to talk to me" is an unlikely driver in most scenarios.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I have personally never heard of a successful courtship and relationship that started with a dude catcalling a girl on the street.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

...what was being shown in the ad wouldn't even be what I'd refer to as "catcalling" TBH.

But I imagine there have been a fair amount that have been the result of just meeting someone out in public and striking up a conversation.

 

[dgiharris]

Cat calls are inappropriate. How could you not know that?

Because throughout my life, the VAST majority of times (95%+) I have performed a Cat Call it was met with an overwhelmingly positive response by the female. The responses consisted of: smiles, laughter, positive retorts like "you couldn't handle this" said with a smile

the negative responses tended to be just completely ignoring the cat call with no response or rolling eyes

Do you honestly want strange men making objectifying comments to your wife or daughter when they walk down the street?

Depends. I saw an attractive couple walking down the street but they weren't hand in hand or arm in arm. As I passed them I said, "Man, if I had a woman that fine you'd bet I'd be holding her hand so that everyone else knew she was my lady..."

The woman immediately beamed a megawatt smile and the man smiled and grabbed her hand...

I remember once I saw this Hispanic woman in a red dress that was just... Wow ... As I walked passed her I said, "That dress should be against the law you're probably going to cause a traffic accident..." She immediately started laughing and smiled and after passing me a few steps she did an over the shoulder look at me with a smile then turned back on her way...

So in my opinion it is all about the situation. Cat Calls are a way of expressing your sexuality and with all types of expression there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. There is also etiquette. I mean, if you are a 40 yr old man cat calling a 16 yr old girl that is appropriate. Then there is the intent of the cat call, if you are just trying to give a compliment without any objective that is one thing, if you are doing a cat call in the context of hopefully picking someone up that is another. Then there is the matter of your attractiveness relative to the person you are cat calling...

There are a lot of unspoken rules in regards to sexual expression and acceptable sexual behavior between men and women. For instance, men and women will often refer to the younger sex by pet names if there is a significant age difference and it is considered non-sexual. For instance, I went to a hotel to check in, the desk clerk was easily 30 years older than me. After I get signed-in she hands me my key card and says, "Here you go sweetie, have a nice stay..."

There are unspoken rules regarding your level of attractiveness, for instance, if you are significantly more attractive than the other sex, it is interesting how you can reward them with a physical expression. For instance, I was walking to my car when a female officer was in the process of writing me a ticket. She was 30 years older than me and overweight. As I approach I say playfully, "Oh man, I guess I wasn't fast enough, late by 2 minutes, well, that's okay that's what I get for being a cheap bastard trying to save a quarter..." and I was laughing while I said this. She looks at me and laughs and voids the ticket and says, "Don't worry about it." I smile and almost scream, "Are you serious?" She says "Yeah". Then I say, "Wow thanks hey, is it legal for me to give you a hug?" She kinda smiles and pauses and then I Just rush over to her and give her a big hug and she laughs and says, "You're such a sweet man..."

My point is there are unspoken rules regarding sexual expression and behavior and I object to a black and white treatment and zero tolerance policy regarding things that are normal parts of life.

Yes, if an attractive woman walks down the street and I start yelling out what I'd like to do to her various body parts then yeah, that is inappropriate and crosses the line. But that is not the same as a typical cat call whistle (FWIW I can't do that whistle) or just a witty remark about her attractiveness.

 

[jardiniere]

I didn't.



The part that feels "iffy" to me is a company that sells shaving products is attempting to sermonize about proper behavior for half the population.

Can we agree that no one should really care what Gillette has to say about men's behavior? We're talking about a company that makes advertisements like this...

View attachment 249398

So forgive me if I find their lame attempts to pander to some feminist narrative....lame.

Beyond the simple fact that Gillette doesn't really have any relevance to the topic of male behavior....I find it rather condescending that they just depict men as violent sex crazed animals in need of restraint. It's the equivalent of depicting women as overly emotional/fragile. It's nothing more than one-dimensional stereotyping.

So I'd call this a cheap and desperate attempt to commoditize a rather shaky political narrative.

The whole "shaving" thing is a sermon about proper behavior for a target population. So you complain when it's just a little bit more sermonizing?

 

[Moral Orel]

Cat calls are inappropriate. How could you not know that? Do you honestly want strange men making objectifying comments to your wife or daughter when they walk down the street?

Well, no. But that's because it's my wife and my daughter. They're mine. I own them.

 

[Ironhold]

Where did they diss positive use of force in the video? I didn’t see it.

The only times we saw any sort of force or aggression in the ad, it was depicted as being negative, no questions asked.

 

[SummerMadness]

Because throughout my life, the VAST majority of times (95%+) I have performed a Cat Call it was met with an overwhelmingly positive response by the female. The responses consisted of: smiles, laughter, positive retorts like "you couldn't handle this" said with a smile

the negative responses tended to be just completely ignoring the cat call with no response or rolling eyes

Some women smile hoping that the encouter will quickly end, you can't simply use that response as an indicator whether they consider catcalling acceptable. "Well, if they don't like it, they should speak up," but that pretends as if women haven't been killed for refusing the advances of a man. "That's not me!" Yeah, it's not you, but how are we supposed to separate the good from the bad. The simple fact is that if you were to speak with most of these women in private afterward, they would say they don't like such behavior, even if they smile it off. I've been in scenarios where someone made me nervous, so I laughed it off so as not to cause a scene (depending on if that person will be set off by you reacting negatively to their behavior).

You may get some genuine responses, but a smile does not necessarily mean the comment is welcome.

So in my opinion it is all about the situation. Cat Calls are a way of expressing your sexuality and with all types of expression there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. There is also etiquette. I mean, if you are a 40 yr old man cat calling a 16 yr old girl that is appropriate. Then there is the intent of the cat call, if you are just trying to give a compliment without any objective that is one thing, if you are doing a cat call in the context of hopefully picking someone up that is another. Then there is the matter of your attractiveness relative to the person you are cat calling...

But for many women, they could hear a guy say the same exact thing and then she is followed. Or it could be a girl who is 14 and finds herself being catcalled by an older man. As I said, I think the issue is you do this on occasion and ignore the fact that many woman experience this constantly and they are more than comments.

 

[Sparagmos]

The only times we saw any sort of force or aggression in the ad, it was depicted as being negative, no questions asked.

And which of those instances were a positive use of force? Can’t we all agree that in a civil society not at war, most use of violence or force by civilians is wrong? Why would you have a problem with an ad discouraging aggression?