Really? No threads about the Gillette ad yet?

[RDKirk]

How can you say it's a sense of entitlement that's causing it? Unless you can read minds, that's not something you can ever know and it's likely going to vary from person to person.

So what's causing it? Demonic possession?

 

[RDKirk]

Okay, let me give a real life example.

I can recall a bus trip I took in my teens. I was young and not confident in speaking up for myself. A guy sat opposite me on the bus, and for the entire 40-minute trip, kept asking me personal questions, putting his hands on my knees, generally invading my physical and emotional space, to the point where even the bus driver told him to knock it off.

If it wasn't a "sense of entitlement" which told that bloke he had a right to do what he was doing, what should I put it down to, precisely?

Demonic possession!

 

[RDKirk]

Since you were "distantly polite" as you put it...is it at all possible that this guy didn't realize that he was "harassing" you? Any chance that he was just trying to express interest in you and perhaps awkward about it?




It's probably a fair guess that he wasn't capable of reading minds....

At what point do people become responsible for their own agency? I'll accept that if a woman tells a man to leave her alone or stop whatever interaction they're having....and he continues anyway....he's definitely behaving wrongly.

If you're trying to claim that men are somehow supposed to read minds and correctly interpret every woman's level of interest before interacting....you're basically claiming that women are never ever responsible for their interactions with men.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to see women as such helpless creatures incapable of any agency of their own.

You mean like my daughter a few years ago who was followed by a group of men at night across campus, with them taunting her about what they'd like to do to her?

Well, she carries a gun now.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It depends on the context. There are times when it's ok for a man to hit on a woman, and times when it absolutely is not. Any time there's a power imbalance, or hitting on the woman would be disrespecting her role in the situation (eg. it's a work context and instead of interacting with her as a professional you insist on hitting on her), would be good examples of times when it's not ok.

Right....look....I'm not arguing that men have a license to be vulgar, or rude, threatening, or hit on women in situations where it's obviously inappropriate.

What I'm addressing here is this bizarre notion that the advertisement addresses....where women seem to think that that they can step out their front door, into public, and they have some sort of right to never face any unwanted interactions with the public.

I get that some women walk by a guy, and he says "hey there" and they're uncomfortable. That's life though. If anything, I think the sense of entitlement is coming from those who think they should get to control the terms of all human interactions they have.

I'm not exaggerating the "hey there" either. One of the first (if not the first) catcalling videos that counted all the "unwanted interactions" from men included a number of guys who said nothing more than "hello".

 

[Ana the Ist]

You mean like *snip*

No. Although I think you just provided a great example of what another poster mentioned earlier. I guess some people can't resist turning every issue into an extreme example.

 

[RDKirk]

No. Although I think you just provided a great example of what another poster mentioned earlier. I guess some people can't resist turning every issue into an extreme example.

I'm sure the guys in question thought it was clear that they didn't mean any harm.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm sure the guys in question thought it was clear that they didn't mean any harm.

I've got no idea what "guys" you're talking about.

 

[Sparagmos]

This:



A big part of teaching young men right from wrong is teaching them when they need to take a stand for something, and in some instances - like, say, someone coming for your wallet - that stand means the use of violence to defend self and others. I mean, the one guy stopping the other guy from getting too pushy with the ladies is an example of the judicious use of force in a proper fashion.

Likewise, as cliche as it may be, there are times where some guys just need to knock each other around for a bit to establish where the boundaries are and what's going on.

Where did they diss positive use of force in the video? I didn’t see it.

 

[Sparagmos]

I dunno... I guess I might be coming off as a creep or something, but I feel we are taking things way too far if we are going to view a cat call as inappropriate???

I guess we should/could have a discussion about when cat calls are appropriate or ok vs when they are not appropriate or ok? Surely there is some sort of etiquette about cat calls? I mean, a 40 yr old man cat calling a 16 yr old girl is clearly inappropriate... Then there is the amount of distance involved. Almost feels like the further away you are the more okay it is vs cat calling someone that is 5 feet from you....

I dunno.. thoughts?

Cat calls are inappropriate. How could you not know that? Do you honestly want strange men making objectifying comments to your wife or daughter when they walk down the street?

 

[Redac]

If we're going to turn this into race....maybe what it was doing was calling on minority men to start stepping into those situations.
So white guys don't have to. If there are underlying messages about race here...

That's right, why is this commercial demanding minorities fight against toxic masculinity? Are they implying that white men are already doing it and people of color are not stepping up enough?

Cute, but I think you both know that's not how that works.

 

[rambot]

The fact that you agree with "the message" doesn't make you virtuous nor does it make the message important.

I'm not trying to make myself seem virtuous. I think men who believe it is okay to grab a girls' butt need to change that behaviour CERTAINLY doesn't make me think that I am virtuous.
Trust me. You toss that label at me every time we discuss this; it's tiring. The thing I'm trying to avoid is labels so the focus would be on the issue instead of it (apparently) being about me being self righteous.

But all that aside...what if I did. What if I DID think I was a better person? How would that affect the quality of the message?

Which behaviours in the ad did you specifically think should be continuing unabated? Are there any that could occur with less frequency?

 

[rambot]

Cute, but I think you both know that's not how that works.

Well, that's not how you want it to work. If messages are up for interpretation, you have yours and I have mine. I see nothing that contradicts my interpretation.

 

[Paidiske]

Right....look....I'm not arguing that men have a license to be vulgar, or rude, threatening, or hit on women in situations where it's obviously inappropriate.

What I'm addressing here is this bizarre notion that the advertisement addresses....where women seem to think that that they can step out their front door, into public, and they have some sort of right to never face any unwanted interactions with the public.

I get that some women walk by a guy, and he says "hey there" and they're uncomfortable. That's life though. If anything, I think the sense of entitlement is coming from those who think they should get to control the terms of all human interactions they have.

I'm not exaggerating the "hey there" either. One of the first (if not the first) catcalling videos that counted all the "unwanted interactions" from men included a number of guys who said nothing more than "hello".

Part of the disconnect, I expect, is that "unwanted" and "threatening" are often so close as to be overlapping, when we're talking about random interactions with men. Part of the problem I have with catcalling - as noted in my first post in this thread - is that it very seldom stops short of catcalling. The catcall is often an exercise of power as much as an articulation of attraction. Part of the problem with the guy who hits on you is that many of them don't graciously accept being politely turned down.

And that brings us back full circle to the idea that there's a time and place, and at random in public might not be it...

 

[SummerMadness]

There seems to be this idea that catcalling is the only thing that is done. As if, "I'm just telling you to smile," is the only thing the person wants and nothing more. But that's not what happens, the reason why such behavior is wrong is because too many men have crossed the line. I have yet to meet a woman who has found catcalling an endearing behavior, they all hate it. If most women hate the behavior, how do you not consider yourself a jerk for conducting yourself in that manner. Yeah, you may have not meant harm, but if most of them hate it, do you think it's okay to continue that behavior?

It's similar to how I think grown men shouldn't go to parks and have casual conversations with children. "But I just want to talk to them!" Right... and we've seen enough abused and/or dead children to, as a society, say such behavior is inappropriate. It's legal to talk to children, but as said repeatedly in this thread, there is a time and place.

The notion that women should endure you hitting on them because you think it's your perogative is the height of entitlement. It doesn't matter what's happening in that woman's life, it's all about how you believe it is your place to invade her personal space, and yes, demanding someone interact with you is invading someone's space.

 

[Sparagmos]

I

That may be the case for some people. However, for other people, the objection solely lies with the double-standard for which that adjective is used...or, indeed, the very low standard with which it gets invoked.

Let's take a look at this little bit from the ad.

An attractive woman walks by, and a guy says "wow" and starts to walk after her and the other guys says "c'mon man, not cool".

So vocalizing that you think someone's attractive, and making an attempt to approach them is "toxic"?


For the people who use that term, would they be using the term "toxic femininity" to describe the woman ogling and responding to "the hot guy", but completely ignoring the "the not guy"?

Now, there are times when it certainly applies, however, there is a certain pattern of behavior, that's more prevalent of among the left.

And that is, when they see a societal injustice that they see as being propogated or endorsed by the right, rather than just calling it out at face value, they water down the meaning of certain words as to use it for debate fodder to try to prove a point and thus, shoot themselves in the foot so that people don't take the word seriously anymore.

Similar thing happened with the topic of bigotry against Muslims. Now, obviously bigotry against Muslims, as people, and making wild assertions like "Muslims are terrorists" isn't something any intelligent person should be saying. However, many in the "PC" crowd went that extra step, and watered down the term "terrorism" to include things like hate letters and graffiti just for debate fodder so that when an ignorant anti-Muslim conservative said something online along those lines, they could respond with "Oh yeah, well the right wing actually has more terrorists! So there!"


I see the same thing happening here...and it's a real problem I have with many on the left (even though I'm much further left than right on the spectrum for many social issues). Expanding the meaning of the term to include more types of behavior, simply to "pad the stats" so that the "other side is worse" when you sum them up (like I said, for debate fodder) is a short-sighted strategy as that's not going to "win" any debates. A) if they didn't listen to all of the other stats on the topic, throwing one more stat (that they're going to ignore/reject) isn't going to change that, and B) it lessens the impact of the term so that people who are legitimate victims aren't taken seriously

I understand where you’re coming from. I agree regarding the use of the word “terrorism.” But catcalling is toxic because it’s so pervasive and it’s harassment by a thousand cuts. In some places, women are harassed and followed on the streets pretty much every day. So altogether, it is absolutely toxic. If I go into a club ir a party, I expect to be approached. But calling embarrassing things out to a woman in front of 20 other people, and following her while she’s just minding her own business trying to go somewhere IS a form of harassment. Keep in mind that society puts the fear of rape-by-stranger in women’s minds from a very young age, so being followed on the street is NOT a good feeling, no matter how much the man is complementing you while he stalks you. I think that these “lesser” forms of harassment are the ones we experience the most, daily for some women, so it important to let men know how we feel about it.

 

[Sparagmos]

I'd disagree here -- I think it was intentional -- but it's rather telling that the default bad guy in an ad against "toxic masculinity" must be white. It's mostly white guys displaying their "toxic masculinity" who are being stopped, for the most part, by virtuous black men, who appear no less "masculine" in any real way. It's almost like toxic masculinity and whiteness are being associated with one another.

Do you also complain when non-whites are depicted in a negative light?

 

[Sparagmos]

I think for woman in her 40s, she might smile at a catcall because it is not common, but when you're 20 it's not flattering. I think the frequency with which something occurs has a big effect on how you view the behavior. If you got catcalled once or twice a year, you might shrug your shoulder, but what if that's everyday? For the catcaller, they may not do this all the time, but for the woman, you are one of many men that harass her, it's a problem. I think back to a time when I would be stopped by women while running (I don't know, might be a Philly thing), it irritating when it happened more than once; I'm trying to run here, I don't want to talk to you.

I think of catcalling as similar to microagressions, the action itself is quite mild, some people are worse than others, but te real issue is the cumulative effect of that behavior. One catcaller, meh. Two catcallers, ugh. Three, four, five... At some point the number of interactions becomes a problem.

Having lived in places where catcalling was pervasive I can wholeheartedly agree. It’s the frequency and pervasiveness that makes it harassment. What a lot of “good” guys don’t realize is how the power dynamic affects the experience of being cat-called. The stranger following you for a block while “complementing you” could also easily overpower you. And he KNOWS that and is using that to push the boundaries. He wouldn’t get in another guy’s space that way.

 

[Sparagmos]

I think we can go ahead and just toss out the whole "making someone late for something" angle. Would we be calling it toxic if someone stopped someone else on the street to ask them "what did you think of that game last night?" or other forms of small talk?




...so, if the roles in that sample commercial I provided were reversed, and it was a guy sitting at the desk, and when the "hot" female walked by and he smiled and was polite, but when a heavier set (or some other trait that society typically deems as being not attractive) walked by and said hi, and he ignored her and then she said "I'm the second most attractive woman in the office, but it's a small office", and the commercial was being presented in such away to convey "see, everyone, this is funny!", you know darn well the PC/feminist crowd would be all over it for "fat shaming" and "how dare they try to give the idea that it's okay to treat women certain ways based on looks alone", etc... etc...

Really...watch this ad again:

...imagine it being verbatim, just with the genders reversed one guy sitting at the desk, then two women walking by... same lines, same interactions, same comedic tone. Do you think the PC crowd would react the same to it?

Nope, it’s not illegal and I wouldn’t want it to be. Pleae consider that much of catcalling behavior feels mildly threatening to women. Imagine you wear a nice watch and every day on your way to work 5 or more guys called out to you, “I like that watch, I’d like to wear it on my wrist.” And imagine all of those guys were way bigger and stronger than you. You might wonder if he was going to do more than talk.

 

[Sparagmos]

Understood.

But to expand on what I said before, how something makes a person feel is going to vary from person to person, so the fact that something makes one person out of fifty uncomfortable can't be the standard we set, as a society, for what constitutes "toxic".

One person out of fifty? Try the majority of women (that I know)

 

[Sparagmos]

It's both. He felt entitled to do harass... why?



I was a terrified teenager. I tried to be distantly polite and kept wishing he'd stop.

Today I'd probably slap him, but I was too scared then.

That must have been horrible. I can relate. And even the strongest woman can remember a time like that when she was terrified and didn’t know how to speak up for herself.