A Challenge to Christian Zionists

[Brian Mcnamee]

yes I was looking up some of the links on another post and then hit your video.

Did you cite the wrong post?[/QUOT

 

[BABerean2]

Pastor Chuck Baldwin once taught modern Dispensational Theology.
However, he later abandoned the doctrine when he could not get it to agree with his Bible.

He speaks below about Christian Zionism.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

A Challenge to Christian Zionists

Seems to be a hot topic on CF...........

https://www.google.com/search?q=chr...I6wKHTIGBysQrQIoBDAAegQIBBAM&biw=1366&bih=626

Christian Zionism - a modern-day heresy?

The 'let's make something happen' theology of many Christians in perhaps understandable - they are sick of waiting.

There are two possible alternatives - we have missed out on the 'end times' or that God's plan is yet to meet fruition.

Of course there is that 'other' explanation - the Kingdom of God is present but we just don't see it.

Christian Zionism = A modern heresy?

1. 
   Yes
   92 vote(s)
   70.8%
2. No
   38 vote(s)
   29.2%

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[Nige55]

It is essential to continually be reminded of who "Israel" and the "Jews" are.

Their DNA is in the possession of every person on earth. They themselves inform us of, and applaud, that reality, as seen from the sources of the information below.

Both genetics and mathematics confirm that reality.

So those who espouse a return of the Jews to Israel actually refer to a return of the entire human race.

Without, or in spite of, recognizing it.

Always such contorted reasoning this, - I have a small degree of Swedish DNA. I'm not Swedish. Trying to make out that everyone on earth is Jewish due to some tiny amount of shared DNA is such an odd perspective.

Always such contorted reasoning this, - I have a small degree of Swedish DNA. I'm not Swedish. Trying to make out that everyone on earth is Jewish due to some tiny amount of shared DNA is such an odd perspective

 

[Nige55]

I oppose the fact that the term Christian Zionist has been connected to (and only to) a small number of people that believe they can influence end times timeline of events.
I am a Christian Zionist, because;
a) I'm a Christian
b) I follow the actual defenition of the word zionism "the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel", or often refers to the return to the Jewish homeland.

 

[Nige55]

The Church is Israel and God broke off the unbelieving Jews from us. They will be reunited only through faith in Christ, according to Romans 11. Besides, all of God's promises are yes in Christ. Meaning they are not for the broken off unbelievers.

Many of us here were once cut off from the promises of God as unbelievers, but we didn't stay unbelievers. The church cannot be Israel, how can (the already saved church), be saved and reunited with him (who they already belong to) ?

 

[Dave L]

Many of us here were once cut off from the promises of God as unbelievers, but we didn't stay unbelievers. The church cannot be Israel, how can (the already saved church), be saved and reunited with him (who they already belong to) ?

How can the broken off Jews be Israel? If any believe, will they be grafted back into the broken off unbelievers, or into Christ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Always such contorted reasoning this, - I have a small degree of Swedish DNA. I'm not Swedish. Trying to make out that everyone on earth is Jewish due to some tiny amount of shared DNA is such an odd perspective

I believe we can all say we have some of Adam's DNA.........
The book of Ezekiel uses the phrase "son of man" more times than all of the OT books combined. The Hebrew word is #H120
Jesus is also referred to as "Son of the Man" in the NT.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

H120 (NKJV)
H120 matches the Hebrew אָדָם ('adam), which occurs 552 times in 527 verses

"son of man" (NKJV)
"son of man" occurs 194 times in 190 verses in the NKJV.

Ezekiel 2:1
1 And He said to me, “Son of man/adam<120>! stand on thy feet! and I will speak to thee.”
3 And He said to me: “Son of man/adam<120>!
I am sending thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious Nation that has rebelled against Me;
they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.

1Co 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[fn]
The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1Co 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law,[fn] that I might win those who are under the law;

History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews

The Etymology of the Word "Jew"

In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedman writes:

Jesus is referred as a so-called "Jew" for the first time in the New Testament in the 18th century..........The history of the origin of the word "Jew" in the English language leaves no doubt that the 18th century "Jew" is the 18th century contracted and corrupted English word for the 4th century Latin "Iudaeus" found in St. Jerome's Vulgate Edition. Of that there is no longer doubt.................

According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, the English word "Jewry" in this verse was translated from the Greek word #2449 Ioudaia {ee-oo-dah'-yah} feminine for the land of Judea. Modern translations no longer use the word "Jewry" but the correct translation, "Judea," as in the New American Standard Bible: "And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him." The New International Version uses the same word.
However, these translations continue to improperly use the word "Jews" in the same verse. A consistent translation would read: ". . . He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Judeans were seeking to kill Him."

Today most people think of Jews as the people of Israel, but that is not correct. An Israelite was one who had descended from Jacob. In Jesus' time individual Jews may or may not have descended from Jacob, but they all recognized Pharisaism and not the Law of Moses. A Jew is properly a Judean.

The point is that one who is called a "Jew" in the Bible is not necessarily a chosen man of God, a follower of Moses and the prophets, a member of the tribe of Judah, an Israelite, or even a Semite, but one who is a resident of Judea. A Judean. But a well-organized and well-financed international "pressure group" created a so-called "secondary meaning" for the new word "Jew" which is not the understanding intended by the Scripture of truth.
Those who call themselves Jews today falsely imply they are somehow descendants of the tribes of Israel and chosen of God. Yet few of them are Jews as they are not "Judeans," or residents of Judea.

Speaking to His elect Church Jesus said, "I know your affliction and your poverty, but you have heavenly riches, and I know the blasphemy of them who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan . . . Take note, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, but are impostors who lie, to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you" (Revelation 2:9; 3:9).

The German language still retains the Latin original pronunciation. The German "Jude" is the German equivalent of the English "Jew." The "J" in the German "Jude" is pronounced exactly like the English "Y"............


.............................

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[Brian Mcnamee]

How can the broken off Jews be Israel? If any believe, will they be grafted back into the broken off unbelievers, or into Christ?

Dave they can be Jews because there are two Israels. When you talk about spiritual Israel being the saved and under the new covenant and a new jerusalem those things we can agree on. The promise to Abraham's descendants was with the land and unconditional. It is reaffirmed in psalm 105. The promise that in Abraham's seed all the nations will be blessed is a promise that is added to the 1st prophecy back in Genesis that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent and that there would be enmity between those two seeds. The church is the seed of the woman and the seed of Abraham. The church is not the descendants of the 12 patriarchs. The prophecy regarding those people regarding that land are many. Many not fulfilled.
Ezekiel 36 talks to the mountains of Israel and declares their habitation at time when Israel is gathered back from all the nations where they were scattered. God says He gathers them back for His names sake and declares Israel has profaned His name in all the nations where they have been prior to being gathered. Once gathered God says that He will take away their reproach from all the nations and that they will no longer bereave other nations and they too will no be bereaved. He makes this declaration that they will know then that I am the LORD. Then they will be filled with God's Spirit.
In this text the nation is defined as those who were scattered and gathered back. A promise is given that this same group God will fill them with His Spirit and be hallowed in them. This promised is one that has no end, meaning that when this is achieved it is not reversed. And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.
3 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because they say to you, ‘You devour men and bereave your nation of children,’ 14 therefore you shall devour men no more, nor bereave your nation anymore,” says the Lord GOD. 15 “Nor will I let you hear the taunts of the nations anymore, nor bear the reproach of the peoples anymore, nor shall you cause your nation to stumble anymore,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”
You see when this comes in Israel will not be the taunt of nations anymore and this is a permanent new reality. This is when they are brought back and said to have profaned the LORD's name where they have been. The only name they have profaned the last 1800 years is Jesus. This is outside of Ezekiel's day when they were defeated by Babylon. The new spirit in them is associated to the time they take possession of the promised land. This is not the church.

 

[Dave L]

Dave they can be Jews because there are two Israels. When you talk about spiritual Israel being the saved and under the new covenant and a new jerusalem those things we can agree on. The promise to Abraham's descendants was with the land and unconditional. It is reaffirmed in psalm 105. The promise that in Abraham's seed all the nations will be blessed is a promise that is added to the 1st prophecy back in Genesis that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent and that there would be enmity between those two seeds. The church is the seed of the woman and the seed of Abraham. The church is not the descendants of the 12 patriarchs. The prophecy regarding those people regarding that land are many. Many not fulfilled.
Ezekiel 36 talks to the mountains of Israel and declares their habitation at time when Israel is gathered back from all the nations where they were scattered. God says He gathers them back for His names sake and declares Israel has profaned His name in all the nations where they have been prior to being gathered. Once gathered God says that He will take away their reproach from all the nations and that they will no longer bereave other nations and they too will no be bereaved. He makes this declaration that they will know then that I am the LORD. Then they will be filled with God's Spirit.
In this text the nation is defined as those who were scattered and gathered back. A promise is given that this same group God will fill them with His Spirit by hallowed in them. This promised is one that has no end meaning that when this is achieved it is not reversed. And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.
3 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because they say to you, ‘You devour men and bereave your nation of children,’ 14 therefore you shall devour men no more, nor bereave your nation anymore,” says the Lord GOD. 15 “Nor will I let you hear the taunts of the nations anymore, nor bear the reproach of the peoples anymore, nor shall you cause your nation to stumble anymore,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”
You see when this comes in Israel will not be the taunt of nations anymore and this is a permanent new reality. This is when they are brought back and said to have profaned the LORD's name where they have been. The only name they have profaned the last 1800 years is Jesus. This is outside of Ezekiel's day when they were defeated by Babylon. The new spirit in them is associated to the time they take possession of the promised land. This is not the church.

There is only one Israel;

“But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” (Ephesians 2:13–22) (KJV 1900)

Moreover, when Jesus abolished circumcision, he made it forever impossible for one to become a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Today's "Jews" are gentiles who practice Jewish customs.

 

[Nige55]

How can the broken off Jews be Israel? If any believe, will they be grafted back into the broken off unbelievers, or into Christ?

Ever read Kings ?

 

[Nige55]

Moreover, when Jesus abolished circumcision, he made it forever impossible for one to become a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Today's "Jews" are gentiles who practice Jewish customs.

I've had this discussion with you before, - the terms 'jew' and therefore 'gentile' are ONLY eradicated through Jesus. Your scenario only exists when the entire earth believes in him, until that point, there are physical Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Dave L]

I've had this discussion with you before, - the terms 'jew' and therefore 'gentile' are ONLY eradicated through Jesus. Your scenario only exists when the entire earth believes in him, until that point, there are physical Jews and Gentiles.

Circumcision made one a physical Jew and physical member if Israel. Even blood relatives were broken off (remained gentiles) if not circumcised. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. Today's "Jews" are gentiles with Jewish customs, only to become members of biblical Israel through faith in Christ (Romans 11).

 

[Dave L]

Ever read Kings ?

Many times.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

There is only one Israel;

“But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” (Ephesians 2:13–22) (KJV 1900)

Moreover, when Jesus abolished circumcision, he made it forever impossible for one to become a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Today's "Jews" are gentiles who practice Jewish customs.

Hi that has nothing to do with the price of artichokes in Sweden. In a debate arguments that are not addressed are assumed agreed with. I admit where I agree with your answer does not address the arguments raised in Ezekiel 36. I could support that view as the same portrayal of restoration is seen in Isaiah 61, Zech 14 and many other places. But lets ad one more level of evidence for the futurist view and that is the destruction of anitchrist at the 2nd coming is completely different than the destruction described at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is bound. Was there blood up to the horses bridal in 70AD. Did Nero get to rule frr 42 months over the whole world and have a image and mark required to buy or sell? Were people beheaded in those days for refusing the mark? At the end of the 1000 years Satan is released and the nations who were deceived have not been for a thousand years. Now they are and come up and surround the city Jerusalem and then fore comes down and that is it. Then the great white throne and new Jerusalem. Zech 14 shows when the LORD comes Jerusalem is being overrun. And it says the LORD is king over all the earth. It shows a new river being formed when the MT of Olives Splits and if flows years round. It also forms a new river, this is not symbolic but literal. Those who are left need to keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This is again proof that life continues on earth after the coming of the LORD.
jer 3
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.
Notice when Jerusalem is throne of the LORD and Israel will no longer think of the ark of the covenant the promise of the land is again affirmed. The ark is still mentioned, Jerusalem is not called the throne of the LORD. If you take the literal view you I can hold the truth of the new covenant and expect this exact end to come just as it says that is without a private interpretation.

 

[Dave L]

Hi that has nothing to do with the price of artichokes in Sweden. In a debate arguments that are not addressed are assumed agreed with. I admit where I agree with your answer does not address the arguments raised in Ezekiel 36. I could support that view as the same portrayal of restoration is seen in Isaiah 61, Zech 14 and many other places. But lets ad one more level of evidence for the futurist view and that is the destruction of anitchrist at the 2nd coming is completely different than the destruction described at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is bound. Was there blood up to the horses bridal in 70AD. Did Nero get to rule frr 42 months over the whole world and have a image and mark required to buy or sell? Were people beheaded in those days for refusing the mark? At the end of the 1000 years Satan is released and the nations who were deceived have not been for a thousand years. Now they are and come up and surround the city Jerusalem and then fore comes down and that is it. Then the great white throne and new Jerusalem. Zech 14 shows when the LORD comes Jerusalem is being overrun. And it says the LORD is king over all the earth. It shows a new river being formed when the MT of Olives Splits and if flows years round. It also forms a new river, this is not symbolic but literal. Those who are left need to keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This is again proof that life continues on earth after the coming of the LORD.
jer 3
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.
Notice when Jerusalem is throne of the LORD and Israel will no longer think of the ark of the covenant the promise of the land is again affirmed. The ark is still mentioned, Jerusalem is not called the throne of the LORD. If you take the literal view you I can hold the truth of the new covenant and expect this exact end to come just as it says that is without a private interpretation.

You do not understand the role of circumcision in the OT and how without it, one remained a gentile and was cut off from Israel. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross forever canceling any claims for being a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. From a biblical standpoint.

 

[Nige55]

Circumcision made one a physical Jew and physical member if Israel. Even blood relatives were broken off (remained gentiles) if not circumcised. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. Today's "Jews" are gentiles with Jewish customs, only to become members of biblical Israel through faith in Christ (Romans 11).

No, Romans 11 mentions nothing of 'biblical Israel', they become members of his bride, - the church. All you describe of the Jews is down to their hardening in part, if the terms Jew and Gentile are still applicable in scripture until the point of Christs return, I for one am certainly not going to start re-defining that for myself.

 

[Dave L]

No, Romans 11 mentions nothing of 'biblical Israel', they become members of his bride, - the church. All you describe of the Jews is down to their hardening in part, if the terms Jew and Gentile are still applicable in scripture until the point of Christs return, I for one am certainly not going to start re-defining that for myself.

To whom does God reattach the believers? To the rest of the unbelievers or to Christ?

 

[Nige55]

You do not understand the role of circumcision in the OT and how without it, one remained a gentile and was cut off from Israel. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross forever canceling any claims for being a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. From a biblical standpoint.

Once again, - ONLY within the acceptance of Jesus as Lord will the division of Jew and Gentile crumble, we've been through this before. Jews that haven't (yet ?) accepted Jesus will not adhere to that, and therefore remain Jews. That term only dissolves WHEN they believe.
Just as - the lifting of the dietary laws for those who believe in him doesn't mean that Jews the world over are currently eating pork.

 

[Dave L]

Once again, - ONLY within the acceptance of Jesus as Lord will the division of Jew and Gentile crumble, we've been through this before. Jews that haven't (yet ?) accepted Jesus will not adhere to that, and therefore remain Jews. That term only dissolves WHEN they believe.
Just as - the lifting of the dietary laws for those who believe in him doesn't mean that Jews the world over are currently eating pork.

They are not biblical Jews since Christ abolished circumcision.