Scapegoat

[mkgal1]

Evidentially you did not go read the link ... or if you did ... go read it again slowly. The scapegoat is not associated with christ.

I did read it.

Again....you're adding ideas to what's said in Scripture.

I don't know how to gently say this - but there were quite a few first century jews that totally missed their Messiah. This is overlooking MOST of what Christianity is about and what first century followers of the Way believed:

From the link you shared (in reference to the meaning of "azazal"):
The name of a supernatural being mentioned in connection with the ritual of the Day of Atonement (Lev. xvi.). After Satan, for whom he was in some degree a preparation, Azazel enjoys the distinction of being the most mysterious extrahuman character in sacred literature. Unlike other Hebrew proper names, the name itself is obscure.

Scapegoat - this was covered already on this page of this thread, post #45 is one example.​

 

[mkgal1]

there is not a "essence" ... and no satan does not remove sin

That's the whole concept of the scapegoat (it carried their sin off into the wilderness - never to be seen again).

That's what Jesus did.

If you're going to assign meaning of the scapegoat to Satan - then you're distorting the shadow meaning completely.

 

[mkgal1]

Evidentially you did not go read the link ... or if you did ... go read it again slowly. The scapegoat is not associated with christ.

Strongs Hebrew 5799

Strong's Hebrew: 5799. עֲזָאזֵל (azazel) -- entire removal

Pay close attention to what you're emphasizing here.

Do you not see that you're divorcing Christ from the process of the removal of sin?

 

[eleos1954]

I did read it.

Again....you're adding ideas to what's said.

well ... we disagree ... others can go read what's in the the links and discern for themselves.

AZAZEL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Leviticus 16

But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

scapegoat - translated from Hebrew

azazel
Strongs 5799
azazel: entire removal
Original Word: עֲזָאזֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: azazel
Phonetic Spelling: (az-aw-zale')
Definition: entire removal

another resource:

The Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16: A Goat for Azazel - Dr. Michael Heiser

 

[mkgal1]

A list of the Jewish feasts and how they coincide with Jesus (quoting Ray Vander Laan):


Jewish Feasts

In the Old Testament, God instituted a religious calendar for the Israelites to follow. Within each year, there were seven specified feasts (Lev. 23), four in the spring and three each fall. Through these feasts, the Jewish people celebrated their history, their faith, and the blessings of God. Through Jesus' life, the hope of each feast was fulfilled in a dramatic way.

Passover

Why

To remember God's deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt, when God passed over Israelite children and killed the firstborn of every Egyptian family.

When

In the spring, on the 14th day of the 1st month

What Happened

Most Jews traveled to Jerusalem for celebration of Passover. Each family brought a spotless lamb to the Temple for sacrifice. These lambs reminded the Israelites of the lamb that was eaten on the night they were delivered from Egypt. The lamb also reminded Israelites of the blood price that must be paid for their sin.

Connection to Jesus

Luke 2 records the story of Jesus and his family traveling to Jerusalem for the Passover feast. Jesus slaughtered the family's lamb, an action that meant he was recognized as a responsible member of the spiritual community. Later, Jesus died on the cross at the exact moment of the Passover sacrifice. Like the Passover lamb, none of his bones were broken, and his blood made the final atonement for the sins of the world.

Unleavened Bread

Why

To remember the escape from Egypt and God's provision of bread from the earth

When

In the spring, on the 15th day of the 1st month >
What Happened

The feast began by offering the first sheaf of grain to God through a special ceremony in the Temple sanctuary (Lev. 23:10-11). Another aspect of this feast involved the baking of unleavened bread, called matzo. God commanded that the Israelites eat only unleavened bread for seven days after Passover as a reminder of their sudden deliverance from Egypt, when their bread literally had no time to rise.

Connection to Jesus

Jesus burial coincided with the offering of the first grain. During his ministry Jesus described himself as "the bread of life. In God's faithfulness, he provided the true "Bread of Life" from the earth by raising Jesus' body from the grave.

First Fruits

Why

To celebrate God's gift of harvest

When

In the spring, 15th day of 1st month

What Happened

Israelites sacrificed the first part of their harvest, flocks, and earned money in recognition that God was the giver of every good thing. The people also acknowledged God's ownership of the land by bringing seven fruits to the Temple. One of these fruits included the pomegranate, a crop easily destroyed by foul weather. By giving these first fruits to God, the Israelites expressed their dependence on him and their trust that he would provide the rest of the harvest.

Connection to Jesus

The Feast of First Fruits coincided with Jesus' resurrection. When Jesus' followers returned to the tomb on the morning of the celebration, it was open and empty. Jesus became the first fruits of those raised from the dead

Shavuot

Other Names

The Feast of Weeks

Why

Thanksgiving for the end of harvest and the anniversary of receiving the Law

When

50 days after Passover

What Happened

Joyful crowds gathered on the Southern Stairs, brought their offerings of wheat to the Temple, and celebrated the good harvest God had given. In Jewish tradition, true thankfulness to God was best shown by giving to others. So when the grain was harvested, the corners of the field were left standing to be gleaned by the poor. The people also celebrated the giving of the Law. This ritual paralleled Israel's history, which began with deliverance from Egypt on Passover and concluded when they received the Law.

Connection to Jesus

Shavuot coincides with Pentecost. Some scholars believe that the arrival of the Holy Spirit may have taken place on the Temple's Southern Stairs where the pilgrims gathered. Luke 24:53 states that the disciples remained in the Temple every day after Jesus' ascension to praise God. Peter was enabled to speak many languages, which would have made the gospel understandable to the people of varying backgrounds who traveled to Jerusalem for Shavuot

Rosh Hashana

Why

To prepare for God's judgment

When

In the fall, on the 1st day of the 7th month

What Happened

Rosh Hashana celebrated the beginning of a new religious year. The people celebrated by attending religious services and considering God's sovereignty and his future day of judgment. The shofar was blown-a sound that reminded Jewish people of their ancient past, God's great power, and their call for faithfulness in his coming judgment.

Connection to Jesus

Jesus, in keeping with this tradition, described a coming judgment that will be announced by the blowing of the shofar (Matt. 24:31).

Yom Kippur

Why

A day for the nation to seek forgiveness. God passed judgment of the people onto a scapegoat

When

In the fall, 10th day of the 7th month

What Happened

In preparation for Yom Kippur, the people fasted as a form of self-denial, repentance, and confession of sin before God. On the feast day, a priest entered the Most Holy Place and God appeared in a cloud over the ark of the covenant. Blood from sacrificed animals was sprinkled on the Most Holy Place and the altar to atone for the sins of priests. The high priest then placed his hands on the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of the people onto the goat. Subsequently, the scapegoat was taken out into the wilderness to die, symbolizing that God had forgiven the people's sins.

Connection to Jesus

The New Testament describes how the Day of Atonement applies to the death of Jesus: Jesus' blood, instead of the blood of the goat, now symbolizes atonement (Heb. 9:11-14). The death of Jesus fulfilled the ancient role of the scapegoat; through Jesus' death, sins are truly forgiven.

Sukkoth

Other Names

Feast of Tabernacles

Why

To remember when the Jewish people lived in the wilderness before entering Canaan.

When

In the fall, on the 15th day of the 7th month.

What Happened

God commanded that booths be constructed to remind the Israelites of their history of wilderness living. The Israelites ate their meals and prayed in these booths for seven days as a reminder of God's protective care. Succoth took place at the end of the dry season and was coupled with a water ceremony and fervent prayer for next year's rains. Solomon dedicated the Temple during Sukkoth as a fitting picture of God coming to live among his people.

Connection to Jesus

In the context of Succoth, Jesus dramatically presented his message. On the "last and greatest day of the Feast," in the midst of the water ceremony and prayers for God to send water, Jesus proclaimed, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink" (John 7:37-38). Some scholars also believe Jesus was born around Sukkoth, which would be a fitting picture of Jesus "tabernacling" among his people.
~ Jewish Feasts

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[bling]

They did not participate in Yom Kipper, no work was to be done.

Isiah and the other prophets really emphasize the motivation behind the individual's worship. If these looking for atonement are just going about ignoring sins the know they committed there would be no atonement for those sins.

The rest of your post is simply you misunderstanding my posts because I never said anything about Jesus replacing Yom Kipper.

I addressed a great deal more than just that.

 

[mkgal1]

Good breakdown. The problem is that neither of the goats were for all of humanity. They were for God’s chosen people.

But God's chosen people were a small part representing the whole of humanity (the way I understand it). ISTM that any other way of looking at it is writing us (who are not biologically in the genealogy line of the ancient Israelites) right out of Scripture.

 

[Pneuma3]

That's the whole concept of the scapegoat (it carried their sin off into the wilderness - never to be seen again).

Amen and it is what he/she keeps missing, thus making satan our atonement.

 

[Pneuma3]

Isiah and the other prophets really emphasize the motivation behind the individual's worship. If these looking for atonement are just going about ignoring sins the know they committed there would be no atonement for those sins.

I addressed a great deal more than just that.

You are still missing the point of yom kipper, it was for ALL sin.

Unless you are Calvinistic in thought would you not agree that Jesus shed his blood for the sins of all of humanity?

If you believe He did I don't see how you cannot understand my posts.

 

[mkgal1]

From Jews for Jesus website:


Yom Kippur in the New Testament
For believers in Yeshua, the scapegoat is a picture of the Messiah, who was sent “as an atoning sacrifice for our sins” (1 John 4:10). Like the scapegoat, Yeshua receives our iniquities and transgressions and takes them from us; unlike the scapegoat, his sacrifice is good for all time, rather than needing to be repeated from year to year. ~ Yom Kippur: Day of Atonement • Jews for Jesus

 

[mkgal1]

Until this thread, I'd NEVER heard anyone suggest the scapegoat represented Satan.

I was wondering (still am) where everyone is getting this from. So far I've only seen that the SDA believe this as well as The Church of the Great God. Where is everyone getting this from? What's your source?

About the CGG: The Church of the Great God (CGG) is one of the Armstrongist Churches of God. It formed in the wake of the major shifts in doctrine by the Worldwide Church of God during the 1980s and 1990s. The CGG, headquartered in Fort Mill, South Carolina, continues to follow the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc....0..35i39j0i131j0i67j0i3j0i20i263.zMK8-5eXhes

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Until this thread, I'd NEVER heard anyone suggest the scapegoat represented Satan.

I was wondering (still am) where everyone is getting this from. So far I've only seen that the SDA believe this as well as The Church of the Great God. Where is everyone getting this from? What's your source?

About the CGG: The Church of the Great God (CGG) is one of the Armstrongist Churches of God. It formed in the wake of the major shifts in doctrine by the Worldwide Church of God during the 1980s and 1990s. The CGG, headquartered in Fort Mill, South Carolina, continues to follow the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc....0..35i39j0i131j0i67j0i3j0i20i263.zMK8-5eXhes

nvm, just don't try to claim SDA is a cult, nor that all of Armstrong's teachings are wrong, if you don't admit your own group's errors (what group?) .

 

[bling]

You are still missing the point of yom kipper, it was for ALL sin..

Not according to the Hebrew writer: Heb. 9: 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed…This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

You are forcing only one interpretation of ignorance which is somewhat unique, by saying: “it only means sins the sinner ignores did” that would be much worse than sins you did not know you did, what support besides a possible dictionary interpretation do you have?

Are sins you just ignored (that is like putting it in God’s face), less significant than sins you hoped God and others might not realize you did?

How is ignoring sins you know you have committed not misleading (a lie in God’s eyes)?

How can the Yom Kipper atone for sins which require swift and merciless banishment or death?

How can you make sins requiring severe punishment of banishment or death into sins done in ignorance, not all rebellious disobedience are sins done in ignorance?

Does that mean rebellious disobedient sins done directly against God just before the atoning sacrifice on Yom Kipper were atoned for and forgiven, without the required punishment?

Unless you are Calvinistic in thought would you not agree that Jesus shed his blood for the sins of all of humanity?
.

All humanity after the cross, YES!! Prior to the cross God passed over sins committed by those forgiven repentant sinners (Ro. 3:25).

 

[Pneuma3]

From Jews for Jesus website:


Yom Kippur in the New Testament
For believers in Yeshua, the scapegoat is a picture of the Messiah, who was sent “as an atoning sacrifice for our sins” (1 John 4:10). Like the scapegoat, Yeshua receives our iniquities and transgressions and takes them from us; unlike the scapegoat, his sacrifice is good for all time, rather than needing to be repeated from year to year. ~ Yom Kippur: Day of Atonement • Jews for Jesus

 

[Pneuma3]

Not according to the Hebrew writer: Heb. 9: 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed…This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

You are forcing only one interpretation of ignorance which is somewhat unique, by saying: “it only means sins the sinner ignores did” that would be much worse than sins you did not know you did, what support besides a possible dictionary interpretation do you have?

Are sins you just ignored (that is like putting it in God’s face), less significant than sins you hoped God and others might not realize you did?

How is ignoring sins you know you have committed not misleading (a lie in God’s eyes)?

I am NOT forcing ONE interpretation, YOU ARE. I have repeated said it was for ALL SIN, you are the one saying it is only for sins done in ignorance.

How can the Yom Kipper atone for sins which require swift and merciless banishment or death?

The same way the blood of Christ does.

How can you make sins requiring severe punishment of banishment or death into sins done in ignorance, not all rebellious disobedience are sins done in ignorance?

Does that mean rebellious disobedient sins done directly against God just before the atoning sacrifice on Yom Kipper were atoned for and forgiven, without the required punishment?

You are arguing with yourself, I believe it is for ALL SINS, so what part of ALL sin are you having a hard time understanding?

All humanity after the cross, YES!! Prior to the cross God passed over sins committed by those forgiven repentant sinners (Ro. 3:25).

The Passover still required the blood, which is a shadow of the blood of Christ who is also our Passover.

 

[Pneuma3]

I believe some need to be reminded of this as bing says Yom Kipper did not do much.

The atonement procured by Yom Kippur is loftier even than that obtained through repentance, for on this day Jew and G‑d are absolutely one. The quintessence of the Jew blazes forth, uniting with his G‑d to reveal a bond untouchable by sin.

Jew and G-d Alone - Yom Kippur

Yom Kippur, then, is a day when no external factors exist, when only the quintessence of the Jew shines forth. Teshuvah can eradicate sin and the blemishes in the soul; Yom Kippur transcends the entire concept of sin and repentance — and therefore brings an atonement loftier than at any other time.

Jew and G-d Alone - Yom Kippur

Thus according to the Jewish mind Yom Kipper is LOFTIER then any other sacrifice, it transcends the entire concept of sin and repentance.

 

[eleos1954]

Just because a or some website(s) agrees with what one believes ... does not make it so. I can find just as many "jewish" websites that disagree. However, I am going to revisit this and do some intense research about it ... so far ... I have found that this has been a controversial topic for some time. I did go back and "scan read" in Exodus where God set down the temple process (He was very detailed about it) and there is nothing in it about a scapegoat .... so it appears the scapegoat "process" was added later.

In Exodus, there were 2 goats (rams) sacrificed, neither was "let go".

also, found this verse:

Leviticus 17

7They must no longer offer their sacrifices to the goat demons to which they have prostituted themselves. This will be a permanent statute for them for the generations to come.

Although an interesting topic, we all know Jesus is the only way and He alone atoned for sin through the shedding of His blood.

God Bless.

 

[mkgal1]

I can find just as many "jewish" websites that disagree.

And I wouldn't be surprised.

Does it make sense to you that that should be your main source when speaking of Messianic prophecies that we - Christians - believe have been fulfilled (and Orthodox Jews do not)? IOW - do you really think that's a credible Christian source of insight? Give some thought to that.

Maybe this will help (from MyJewish learning):

But what do Jews believe about Jesus?

• For some Jews, the name alone is nearly synonymous with pogroms and Crusades, charges of deicide and centuries of Christian anti-Semitism.
• Other Jews, recently, have come to regard him as a Jewish teacher. This does not mean, however, that they believe, as Christians do, that he was raised from the dead or was the messiah.
• Was Jesus the Messiah?
  The question “was Jesus the messiah?” requires a prior question: “What is the definition of messiah?” The Prophets (Nevi’im), who wrote hundreds of years before Jesus’ birth, envisioned a messianic age as as a period of universal peace, in which war and hunger are eradicated, and humanity accepts God’s sovereignty. By the first century, the view developed that the messianic age would witness a general resurrection of the dead, the in-gathering of all the Jews, including the 10 lost tribes, to the land of Israel, a final judgment and universal peace.
• More than 1,000 years after Jesus’ crucifixion, the medieval sage Maimonides (also known as Rambam) laid out in his Mishneh Torah specific things Jews believe the messiah must accomplish in order to confirm his identity — among them restoring the kingdom of David to its former glory, achieving victory in battle against Israel’s enemies, rebuilding the temple (which the Romans destroyed in 70 CE) and ingathering the exiles to the land of Israel. “And if he’s not successful with this, or if he is killed, it’s known that he is not the one that was promised by the Torah,” Maimonides wrote.- What Do Jews Believe About Jesus? | My Jewish Learning

 

[mkgal1]

Surprisingly, Got Questions has a great explanation (IMO):

Question: "What is the meaning of Azazel / the scapegoat?"

Answer: “Azazel” or “the scapegoat” is mentioned in Leviticus 16 as part of God’s instructions to the Israelites regarding the Day of Atonement. On this day, the high priest would first offer a sacrifice for his sins and those of his household; then he would perform sacrifices for the nation. “From the Israelite community [the high priest was instructed] to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering” (v. 5). The priest brought the animals before the Lord and cast lots between the two goats – one to be a sacrifice and the other to be the scapegoat. The first goat was slaughtered for the sins of the people and its blood used to cleanse the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar (v. 20). After the cleansing, the live goat was brought to the high priest. Laying his hands on the scapegoat, the high priest was to “confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites – all their sins – and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness” (vv. 21-22). Symbolically, the scapegoat took on the sins of the Israelites and removed them (v. 10). For Christians, this is a foreshadowing of Christ.

Christ is the complete atonement for our sins. In many ways, He embodies each aspect of the Day of Atonement. We are told that He is our great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14). He is also the “Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world” (Revelation 13:8) as a sacrifice for our sins. And He is our scapegoat. Second Corinthians 5:21 says, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” Our sins were laid on Christ – He bore our sins just as the scapegoat bore the sins of the Israelites. Isaiah 53:6 prophesies Christ’s acceptance of the sin burden: “We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” After the sins were laid on the scapegoat, it was considered unclean and driven into the wilderness. In essence, the goat was cast out. The same happened to Jesus. He was crucified outside of the city. “He was despised and rejected by men … He poured out His life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:3a, 12). Jesus embodied what the scapegoat represented – the removal of sins from the perpetrators.

Truly, the Old Testament rituals carry a depth and richness that only God could create. The Day of Atonement foreshadowed the ultimate atonement Christ provides. No longer do we need to sacrifice animals to cover our sins, nor do we need to impute our sins to a scapegoat to have them carried away. Jesus has been sacrificed and “scapegoated” for us. Our sins have been atoned for and removed. “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming – not the realities themselves,” we are told in Hebrews 10:1. “For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. … Those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. … We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:3-4, 10). -
What is the meaning of Azazel / the scapegoat?

 

[eleos1954]

And I wouldn't be surprised.

Does it make sense to you that that should be your main source when speaking of Messianic prophecies that we - Christians - believe have been fulfilled (and Orthodox Jews do not)? IOW - do you really think that's a credible Christian source of insight? Give some thought to that.

Maybe this will help (from MyJewish learning):

But what do Jews believe about Jesus?

• For some Jews, the name alone is nearly synonymous with pogroms and Crusades, charges of deicide and centuries of Christian anti-Semitism.
• Other Jews, recently, have come to regard him as a Jewish teacher. This does not mean, however, that they believe, as Christians do, that he was raised from the dead or was the messiah.
• Was Jesus the Messiah?
  The question “was Jesus the messiah?” requires a prior question: “What is the definition of messiah?” The Prophets (Nevi’im), who wrote hundreds of years before Jesus’ birth, envisioned a messianic age as as a period of universal peace, in which war and hunger are eradicated, and humanity accepts God’s sovereignty. By the first century, the view developed that the messianic age would witness a general resurrection of the dead, the in-gathering of all the Jews, including the 10 lost tribes, to the land of Israel, a final judgment and universal peace.
• More than 1,000 years after Jesus’ crucifixion, the medieval sage Maimonides (also known as Rambam) laid out in his Mishneh Torah specific things Jews believe the messiah must accomplish in order to confirm his identity — among them restoring the kingdom of David to its former glory, achieving victory in battle against Israel’s enemies, rebuilding the temple (which the Romans destroyed in 70 CE) and ingathering the exiles to the land of Israel. “And if he’s not successful with this, or if he is killed, it’s known that he is not the one that was promised by the Torah,” Maimonides wrote.- What Do Jews Believe About Jesus? | My Jewish Learning

I am responsible for what I believe and everyone else is responsible for what they believe. Each of us share our beliefs and why we believe them ... people can consider them ... or not. We have conversation about it. Thanks for the links.