What do " believers " believe in as their acts of Faith?

[watchman 2]

This points to another meaning of cleave: when we humans cleave to God there is a sense of a more dependent being ‘leaning on’ a more firm being. The old hymn, Rock of Ages, invites the ‘cleaver’ to lean on God. Israel was invited to do this towards God. Christ speaks in this same vein when offering to carry our yoke with us: not that he will carry it for us, but he will con-jointly carry it with us. The weaker can lean on the stronger, and by this, gradually assimilate their strength, and its properties and attributes of stead-fastness, enduring and undergoing, and most powerful of all, ‘bearing up.’

This means that cleaving is not only a personal action of heart; believing is abstract and theoretical, cleaving is existentially concrete and actual.

You remain within your comfort boundary when you believe. You put yourself on the line when you cleave.

I know only a very few people who believe and cleave.

I know many people who believe and do not cleave.

I know even more people who do not, and will never, believe but who cleave.

Did you recieve the email?

 

[Blade]

Yeshua/Jesus came in the flesh born by the virgin Mary. Died on the cross for the worlds sins was buried. Rose the 3rd day. Is seated at the right hand of the Father. Is the only way to the Father.. and He baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. With out faith we can never please Him. Who calls things that be not as though they were. Acts of faith.. to believe you are saved..is faith. To read the word of God and to then take HIM at His word. Knowing what HE said He will do. Knowing you are made in the image of GOD..the great I am.. a son a daughter. We come together as on... believing on Christ as the head.. the corner stone.

 

[Roidecoeur78]

Did you recieve the email?

Yes sir, thanks. I have scanned it and not found anything I would disagree with, and will go over it more thoroughly when I can. It appears to be saying what God has taught me from many painful personal experiences.

 

[Foxfyre]

A one time surrender can start the process, but can't maintain, or complete it.

Again I leave that to God. I don't presume to know or have any authority to specify exactly how it has to be for any person.

 

[Radagast]

Question .
What is it specifically that " believers " believe in ?

What specifically are the " believers " object of Faith?

Detailed answers please.

What is the point of this thread?

 

[watchman 2]

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13 NKJV


“Believe” here is pisteuw, or rather pisteuousiv. As I said in post 70, pisteuw rarely shows up in the Scriptures. Still, the terms are very similar. Pisteuw, which you are attempting to redefine is in the 1st person present active indicative while pisteuousiv is in the 3rd person present active indicative plural. But they have the same essential meaning - one to a single self, the other to multiple 3rd parties.


But neither in-and-of-itself refers to a “full surrender.” In fact, Luke 8:13 shows the response to be only temporary.


True pisteuw in the gospel is a permanent monergistic gift of God. And it necessarily results in a synergistic response- surrender. It is a dangerous thing to confuse the two. The meaning of the individual word does not seal the argument. Although in its participle forms it comes very close. That genuine faith is of a permanent nature is determined by the related, broader, teaching of Scripture.


True faith is God given and certainly leads to works/obedience (again, imperfect obedience). But the distinction between faith and works dare not be surrendered.

It's " pisteuo " and it's used in the NT 248 times.

That's rarely used?

 

[Gr8Grace]

What is the point of this thread?

First and foremost it is to distract people from the Gospel and the Creator. And what the Creator did for His creatures.

Secondly, it is to promote the creature and what the creature is doing for the Creator.............like ALL religion's do.

 

[watchman 2]

What is the point of this thread?

The point of this thread is to show that the mistranslatied words believe, believer, and believing can't make God Himself the " object of Faith " without including His promises. The overwhelming response to my OP question has included promises in His word.

This means " believing " isn't NT Faith in God Himself, " believing " is an attempt at a business deal with God.

Overall point, NT pisteuo " means NOT just to believe" . Quote from the Strongs.

 

[Radagast]

The point of this thread is to show that the mistranslatied words believe, believer, and believing

These words are not mistranslated. We've had that thread already.

Overall point, NT pisteuo " means NOT just to believe" . Quote from the Strongs.

You're misrepresenting Strong's. It's actually saying that the main meaning of pisteuō is "believe." See here.

 

[watchman 2]

Again I leave that to God. I don't presume to know or have any authority to specify exactly how it has to be for any person.

Ya I agree, but!

The Salvation journey must start a certain way, it must include happenings that must happen in the correct order.

Example: the church world of today " believes" that they accept Christ and at that same moment recieve the Spirit of Christ. In the Salvation process, every " Faither" after their initial actaof pisteuo ( genuine surrendered life ) must go through the parable of the sower , where Christ tells us 3 out of the four soils will fail. Obviously, the ones that fail haven't been given His Spirit yet. So that example alone wipes out that understanding out right.

I' agree, time of, circumstances, are all different. Not trying to put God in a box. I have in my own flawed way I've broken it down into 5 separate phases, with approx 10 different states of being in each phase. Certain things must happen, and happen in the right order.

 

[dstamps]

Very well stated.

But!

How does one fulfill what you've stated correctly?

My small but important point to this topic, is that " believing " on its own, is not faithing into Christ. Therefore can't result in recieving the Spirit of Christ.

"give us this day our daily bread"

The Spirit of Christ seeks what is Christ's. Therefore, when we seek what is Christ's in a non-self-serving way, the Spirit of Christ is leading us. We should not see the Holy Spirit as separate from us anymore that we should see the Life of Christ separate from us. Both are to be who we are. Therefore, we grow into that person day by day.

 

[Ing Bee]

Alot of agreement to your reply.

Are you familiar with the Greek word pisteuo?

Yes.

 

[Radagast]

I have in my own flawed way I've broken it down into 5 separate phases, with approx 10 different states of being in each phase. Certain things must happen, and happen in the right order.

Sounds rather unbiblical.

 

[msortwell]

It's " pisteuo " and it's used in the NT 248 times.

That's rarely used?

According to Biblehub.com, and consistent with my understanding of the rarity of the usage of first person active indicative forms, Πιστεύω (Pisteuō) I believe — has only 5 Occurrences.

The remaining 243 occurrences (trusting your count) are different conjugations of the same root verb.

πίστευε (pisteue) believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύει (pisteuei) believes — 3 Occurrences
πιστεύειν (pisteuein) to believe — 5 Occurrences
πιστεύεις (pisteueis) believe you — 8 Occurrences
πιστεύεται (pisteuetai) is belief — 1 Occurrence
Πιστεύετε (Pisteuete) Believe you — 21 Occurrences
πιστεύῃ (pisteuē) shall believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύητε (pisteuēte) you should believe — 3 Occurrences
πιστευθῆναι (pisteuthēnai) to be entrusted with — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύομεν (pisteuomen) we believe — 6 Occurrences
πιστεύοντα (pisteuonta) believes — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύοντας (pisteuontas) believing — 4 Occurrences
πιστεύοντες (pisteuontes) believing — 7 Occurrences
πιστεύοντι (pisteuonti) believes — 4 Occurrences
πιστευόντων (pisteuontōn) believe — 4 Occurrences
πιστεύουσιν (pisteuousin) believe — 14 Occurrences
πιστεῦσαι (pisteusai) to believe — 6 Occurrences
πιστεύσαντας (pisteusantas) having believed — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσαντες (pisteusantes) having believed — 7 Occurrences
πιστευσάντων (pisteusantōn) having believed — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσας (pisteusas) having believed — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσασα (pisteusasa) having believed — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσασιν (pisteusasin) having believed — 3 Occurrences
πιστεύσει (pisteusei) will entrust — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσετε (pisteusete) will you believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσῃς (pisteusēs) you should believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσητε (pisteusēte) believe [it] — 11 Occurrences
πιστεύσομεν (pisteusomen) we will believe — 1 Occurrence
πίστευσον (pisteuson) believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσουσιν (pisteusousin) will believe — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσω (pisteusō) I might believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσωμεν (pisteusōmen) believe — 3 Occurrences
πιστεύσωσιν (pisteusōsin) might believe — 4 Occurrences
Πιστεύω (Pisteuō) I believe — 5 Occurrences
πιστεύων (pisteuōn) believes — 24 Occurrences
πίστεως (pisteōs) of faith — 94 Occurrences
πιστὴ (pistē) believing [woman] — 1 OOkccurrence
πιστὴν (pistēn) faithful — 1 Occurrence
πιστῆς (pistēs) believing — 1 Occurrence

I hope that clears thing up. Please note that each of the references above is a link to a full explanation of each form and its various using in the Bible.

 

[watchman 2]

These words are not mistranslated. We've had that thread already.



You're misrepresenting Strong's. It's actually saying that the main meaning of pisteuō is "believe." See here.

I have the text.

Strong's : " pisteuo means NOT just to believe".
Believe is a mistranslation. The words the English should have had for the translators are faithe, faither , and faithing. But the English language has no corresponding verb to the English noun " Faith " like the Greek does.

If you want to go on " believing " go right ahead, you've been warned.

 

[msortwell]

Regarding πιστεύω literally meaning a full surrender to the Lord . . .

Luke 8:5-13

5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture . . . 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said . . . 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. KJV

13 οἱ δὲ ἐπὶ τῆς πέτρας οἳ ὅταν ἀκούσωσιν μετὰ χαρᾶς δέχονται τὸν λόγον καὶ οὗτοι ῥίζαν οὐκ ἔχουσιν οἳ πρὸς καιρὸν πιστεύουσιν καὶ ἐν καιρῷ πειρασμοῦ ἀφίστανται

“<1161> They on <1909> the rock <4073> [are they], which <3739>, when <3752> they hear <191> (5661), receive <1209> (5736) the word <3056> with <3326> joy <5479>; and <2532> these <3778> have <2192> (5719) no <3756> root <4491>, which <3739> for <4314> a while <2540> believe <4100> (5719), and <2532> in <1722> time <2540> of temptation <3986> fall away <868> (5736).” (Lu 8:13 AV)

4100 - πιστεύω (pisteuo) pist-yoo’-o

5719 Tense-Voice-Mood: Present-Active-Indicative


Please reconcile your definition of πιστεύω with this use of its 3rd Person Plural, Present Active Indicative form in Luke 8:13. Here it is used in reference to a temporary (and apparently superficial) form of believing.

 

[Radagast]

I have the text.

And you are misrepresenting it. Strong's says:

πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Thayer's says:

πιστεύω; imperfect ἐπίστευον; future πιστεύσω; 1 aorist ἐπίστευσα; perfect πεπίστευκα; pluperfect (without augment, cf. Winers Grammar, § 12, 9; (Buttmann, 33 (29))) πεπιστεύκειν (Acts 14:23); passive perfect πεπίστευμαι; 1 aorist ἐπιστεύθην; (πιστός); the Sept. for הֶאֱמִין; in classical Greek from Aeschyl, Sophocles, Euripides, Thucydides down; to believe, ...

Believe is a mistranslation.

Incorrect.

If you want to go on " believing " go right ahead, you've been warned.

I'll keep on doing what Jesus told me to. John 3:16.

 

[watchman 2]

According to Biblehub.com, and consistent with my understanding of the rarity of the usage of first person active indicative forms, Πιστεύω (Pisteuō) I believe — has only 5 Occurrences.

The remaining 243 occurrences (trusting your count) are different congregations of the same root verb.

πίστευε (pisteue) believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύει (pisteuei) believes — 3 Occurrences
πιστεύειν (pisteuein) to believe — 5 Occurrences
πιστεύεις (pisteueis) believe you — 8 Occurrences
πιστεύεται (pisteuetai) is belief — 1 Occurrence
Πιστεύετε (Pisteuete) Believe you — 21 Occurrences
πιστεύῃ (pisteuē) shall believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύητε (pisteuēte) you should believe — 3 Occurrences
πιστευθῆναι (pisteuthēnai) to be entrusted with — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύομεν (pisteuomen) we believe — 6 Occurrences
πιστεύοντα (pisteuonta) believes — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύοντας (pisteuontas) believing — 4 Occurrences
πιστεύοντες (pisteuontes) believing — 7 Occurrences
πιστεύοντι (pisteuonti) believes — 4 Occurrences
πιστευόντων (pisteuontōn) believe — 4 Occurrences
πιστεύουσιν (pisteuousin) believe — 14 Occurrences
πιστεῦσαι (pisteusai) to believe — 6 Occurrences
πιστεύσαντας (pisteusantas) having believed — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσαντες (pisteusantes) having believed — 7 Occurrences
πιστευσάντων (pisteusantōn) having believed — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσας (pisteusas) having believed — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσασα (pisteusasa) having believed — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσασιν (pisteusasin) having believed — 3 Occurrences
πιστεύσει (pisteusei) will entrust — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσετε (pisteusete) will you believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσῃς (pisteusēs) you should believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσητε (pisteusēte) believe [it] — 11 Occurrences
πιστεύσομεν (pisteusomen) we will believe — 1 Occurrence
πίστευσον (pisteuson) believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσουσιν (pisteusousin) will believe — 1 Occurrence
πιστεύσω (pisteusō) I might believe — 2 Occurrences
πιστεύσωμεν (pisteusōmen) believe — 3 Occurrences
πιστεύσωσιν (pisteusōsin) might believe — 4 Occurrences
Πιστεύω (Pisteuō) I believe — 5 Occurrences
πιστεύων (pisteuōn) believes — 24 Occurrences
πίστεως (pisteōs) of faith — 94 Occurrences
πιστὴ (pistē) believing [woman] — 1 Occurrence
πιστὴν (pistēn) faithful — 1 Occurrence
πιστῆς (pistēs) believing — 1 Occurrence

I hope that clears thing up.

The context of pisteuo is always 3 things. A specific act, based upon a specific belief, sustained by a specific confidence.

Those 3 things are incompassed in the Vines : " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."

Whether the surrendered life is speaking of him, her ,it ,past , present, or future isn't the point.

The point is " believing " isn't true pisteuo. And I see your biblehub missed that one.

 

[watchman 2]

And you are misrepresenting it. Strong's says:

πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Thayer's says:

πιστεύω; imperfect ἐπίστευον; future πιστεύσω; 1 aorist ἐπίστευσα; perfect πεπίστευκα; pluperfect (without augment, cf. Winers Grammar, § 12, 9; (Buttmann, 33 (29))) πεπιστεύκειν (Acts 14:23); passive perfect πεπίστευμαι; 1 aorist ἐπιστεύθην; (πιστός); the Sept. for הֶאֱמִין; in classical Greek from Aeschyl, Sophocles, Euripides, Thucydides down; to believe, ...



Incorrect.



I'll keep on doing what Jesus told me to. John 3:16.

Without an accepted sealed surrendered life, Christ, His word, and His promises can't be ours yet. So obeying God's word would be like sending Ford motor credit a car payment, without a contract. They can't accept it!

 

[watchman 2]

This is a repeat of several other threads on the same topic. The endgame is salvation by faith vs salvation by works.

Salvation is by Grace " through Faith! ".