Why is the day of worship controversial?

[BobRyan]

OK. The letter of the law is inflexible and must be fully obeyed. Any deflection from full obedience to that letter makes you guilty, of breaking the entire law and under condemnation,

in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.
And under the Gospel "these things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1
And under the Gospel "IF anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1

However all the lost and unsaved world are "under the LAW" Romans 3:19-21 to this very day - that is how the lost "are lost" -- under the condemnation of the Law.

I guess you agree. IE Thou shalt not covet. It does not say: You may covet occasionally and if you do, that is ok, for you are only human,

True. Just as it says "you hall not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7. It does not say "except occasionally as you feel the urge of the moment - then that is ok" or "Except if you are a born again Christian - and then taking God's name in vain is ok"

No wiggle room at all. Perfect obedience of the letter or you are guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments.

As James 2 says "break one .. you are breaking them all".

so then you are stuck with "no taking God's name in vain"... is that a problem?

Romans 8 says it is a problem for the lost in Rom 8:4-10 "they do not subject themselves to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" as contrasted to the saints "who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Are you trying to say that not taking God's name in vain is obedience to the law? If so how do you deal with the fact many unregenerate people are in compliance with that the way you mean it?

Did you find a "obey one commandment and you have obeyed them all so go ahead and break the rest of them" in that post? If so - I am curious as to how you came up with it.

 

[BobRyan]

OK. The letter of the law is inflexible and must be fully obeyed. Any deflection from full obedience to that letter makes you guilty, of breaking the entire law and under condemnation,

in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.
And under the Gospel "these things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1
And under the Gospel "IF anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1

However all the lost and unsaved world are "under the LAW" Romans 3:19-21 to this very day - that is how the lost "are lost" -- under the condemnation of the Law.

I guess you agree. IE Thou shalt not covet. It does not say: You may covet occasionally and if you do, that is ok, for you are only human,

True. Just as it says "you hall not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7. It does not say "except occasionally as you feel the urge of the moment - then that is ok" or "Except if you are a born again Christian - and then taking God's name in vain is ok"

No wiggle room at all. Perfect obedience of the letter or you are guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments.

As James 2 says "break one .. you are breaking them all".

so then you are stuck with "no taking God's name in vain"... is that a problem?

Romans 8 says it is a problem for the lost in Rom 8:4-10 "they do not subject themselves to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" as contrasted to the saints "who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

So I repeat, if you break the tenth commandment in your thoughts you break them all, as that is your belief. Therefore your thoughts can send you to hell

So I repeat the 1 John 2 section above "matters". Here it is "again".

in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.
And under the Gospel "these things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1
And under the Gospel "IF anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1

However all the lost and unsaved world are "under the LAW" Romans 3:19-21 to this very day - that is how the lost "are lost" -- under the condemnation of the Law.

=======================================
And still "taking God's name in vain" is a sin - even for Christians ... as we all know.

How do you escape that? Are you arguing that I am the author of the texts you do not quote?

 

[Timothy416]

Its always the same, people will continually tell you, you must obey the letter of the ten commandments in full. Break one you break them all. When you then point out to them, that includes obeying the tenth one in your mind/thoughts, they do not seem to want to give you a hearty amen, it gets ignored. One can only wonder why

 

[Timothy416]

in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.
And under the Gospel "these things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1
And under the Gospel "IF anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1

However all the lost and unsaved world are "under the LAW" Romans 3:19-21 to this very day - that is how the lost "are lost" -- under the condemnation of the Law.



True. Just as it says "you hall not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7. It does not say "except occasionally as you feel the urge of the moment - then that is ok" or "Except if you are a born again Christian - and then taking God's name in vain is ok"



As James 2 says "break one .. you are breaking them all".

so then you are stuck with "no taking God's name in vain"... is that a problem?

Romans 8 says it is a problem for the lost in Rom 8:4-10 "they do not subject themselves to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" as contrasted to the saints "who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12



So I repeat the 1 John 2 section above "matters". Here it is "again".

in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.
And under the Gospel "these things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1
And under the Gospel "IF anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1

However all the lost and unsaved world are "under the LAW" Romans 3:19-21 to this very day - that is how the lost "are lost" -- under the condemnation of the Law.

=======================================
And still "taking God's name in vain" is a sin - even for Christians ... as we all know.

How do you escape that? Are you arguing that I am the author of the texts you do not quote?

I do hope you are someone who fully understands what full obedience to the ten commandments entails. If not, you may not be practicing what you preach.

 

[Timothy416]

The Apostle Paul of course did understand what full obedience to the ten commandments entailed, he was not in ignorance concerning that. Hence, he referred to those commands as the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation

 

[ace of hearts]

Indeed it was your mistake thankyou for admitting it. As the scriptures pointed out we are dead to sin not dead to God's LAW. The only purpose God's LAW (10 Commandments) has is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is when broken and the KNOWLEDGE of RIGHTEOUSNESS when OBEYED by faith *PSALMS 119:172. All those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is the not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. We are all sick with sin and need a Physician *MATTHEW 9:12-13. JESUS says arise take up your bed and walk. I believe him. How about you?

So if we're dead to sin, what purpose does the law have? Remember we don't sin because we're dead. Why does a dead person need the law?

God's LAW (10 Commandments) always has value. It's value is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172

Not for the Christian. We're dead to sin, remember?

The topic and example of marriage and adultery is used in ROMANS 7:1-4. If the woman is still married to her hisband who is alive she commits adultery. If the first husband dies and the women is married to another she does not commit adultery.

Being dead to the law is in reference to not breaking it.

Correct. The husband has died and so did the law of the husband. This illustrates and intends for us to understand the law has no bearing on the Christian.

ROMANS 7:4-5
[4], Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.

Yes the husband died and so did his law. You quote and bold ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ. So what do you mean? The verse says nothing about ceremonial law.

NOTE: The reference back to...

ROMANS 6:1-6
[1], What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2], God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[3], Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4], Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5], For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
[7], For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Continuing with ROMANS 7:5 continues the thought from v4 that if we are not dead to sin and continue living in the flesh will bring forth the fruit unto death *ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13

Who are you talking about living in the flesh? Isn't it you that demands by quoting Scripture the body of flesh has to jump through hoops to attain and maintain salvation?

[5], For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Yes you still operate in the flesh requiring it to do certain things for salvation of the soul. Why don't you understand the body of flesh returns to dust from whence it came and isn't ever redeemed? Please don't say I don't take responsibility for the actions of my body.

We are only dead to the law by not livingin the flesh. If we are living in the flesh (continuing in sin) then we are not dead to the law because through the law is the KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is *ROMANS 3:20.

So when are you going to quit requiring our flesh to function according to the law?

Look at the CONTEXT God's LAW is not ABOLISHED the penalty of it is to all those who have FAITH in God's WORD. We are delivered from the Law of sin and death *RONMANS 7:23-25; ROMANS 8:1-4. We are delivered from the penalty and condemnatio of the law which is death *ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 6:23.

Hope this helps.

Look at LK 16:16 and Jn 1:17 and believe them as truth.

 

[ace of hearts]

You are a little confused here. It is the COVENANTS that contain the laws that have changed. No more SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 that have been fulfilled in Christ and God's plan of salvation in the NEW (Read HEBREWS 7-10). The NEW COVENANT is nothing like the OLD COVENANT. For example do you practice sin offereings and circumcision from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT? On the other hand God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) have the same role it always has and that is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. Strangly enough God's 4th commandment is one of the 10 commandments. God's WORD tells us that if we break any one of God's commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. God's WORD says that all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

The covenant made with Israel has been set aside as Jeremiah promised and Jesus confirmed as current. The covenant Jeremiah said was set aside is - And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

 

[ace of hearts]

Not sure how I can make it any clearer. Your earlier posts in response to my posts on ROMANS 6-8 did not respond to the content and scriptures provided except to make claims in your own words not founded on the scriptures or to make claims and arguments (strawman) no one was talking about or claiming. You are still to respond to the posts and scriputures that disagreed with you. Except you have admitted your mistake that we are to die to sin now and not the law as posted earlier which is good.

You know your screen must show something different from my screen. I think that anyone who can read can see what you're saying is false.

Here are my words quoted from one of my posts -

.
That is biased personal opinion. The subject is clearly the law which you posted is what binds. Proof that you think the law binds is your continuous harping about the famous 10. No the law also condemns and requires punishment.I already posted -

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gentiles were never under the law. That has nothing to do with the whole world being guilty.

Keeping the law won't make one guiltless or righteous. You charge gentiles with sin (unrighteousness) by a law that never applied to them and now is superseded. Righteousness is only by faith of Jesus Christ. This bypasses the law (famous 10).

Paul doesn't say the famous 10 are established in the heart of the believer. You add to Scripture what you want to believe.What is "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?"

Please notice it's the law which caused the motions of sins activating the law of sin and death. Yes! 7:25 gets into what is redeemed. The body of flesh is never redeemed. It will never be raised from the dead. Salvation is about the soul only. The law can't redeem or change the soul. Only the work Jesus did on our behalf can through faith. Jesus said more than once to come to Him and have life eternal rest. Jesus told the Jews to search the Scripture because they thought it would give them life. IOW the law doesn't give life. The law only condemns and passes the sentence of death (separation from God).

8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

No Paul isn't. You don't understand the expressions of what you call 3 different laws. There's also the law of gravity. That is an expression of an activity. It's also a law of God. Paul clearly calls the law - the law of sin and death. Note worthy is his calling the law the ministration of death. How soon you don't remember Paul's discussion proving the law brings death. Paul isn't amused by that fact. You really need to do a careful close an honest reading of the verses you post and even emphasize. No I'm not mixing the law of sin and death with God's commandments. You try to separate the law of sin and death from the law (the famous 10). You can't. They don't grant you life because you can't keep them. Jesus made this point very well. The Psalms makes this point very well. The law brings death (separation from God).
The law is about carnal (the flesh) performance.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I don't know about you, but I believe Paul was a Christian when He wrote that.
There is no Scripture I disagree with. There's no Scripture that disagrees with me.

Those words appear between your comments as my original post shows. Just click on the icon after the colon for proof.

EXACTLY! That is what I am saying. They are your opinions and they are not supported by the scriptures and have not addressed the posts and the scriptures you are trying to respond to. Thanks for being honest. You should understand what I am saying now then. You have still not responded to the posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with your opinions.

The example I quoted above includes Scripture proving what I said. You continue to refuse to respond to those passages claiming I didn't post them.

Responding to a post and the scriptures in them is different to responding to a post and giving your opinion about what the post is saying. From this view is what I am meaning as you have not addressed the post and the scriptures in them that disagree with you. If your not addressing the post and the scriptures in them in my view it is ignoring the post and the scriptures as you have not shown how the post and scriptures that disagree with you are not correct.



Nope not at all. I believe all of ROMANS 7:6 not your interpretation of it. This was shown in the context you leave out being v5 and the surrounding scriptures from ROMANS 6; ROMANS 7 and ROMANS 8. This being addressed in some detail 1. Here; 2. Here; 3 Here and 4 Here. Romans 7:6 is talking about being delievered from the CONDEMNATION and PENALTY of God's LAW *ROMANS 8:1-4, not something that is HOLY; JUST and GOOD that gives us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 7:12; ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20. Your interpretation cotradicts the scriptures. Mine is in complete harmoney with God's WORD. Can you see your error here brother?

This isn't my interpretation -

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

neither is -

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

nor -

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

No one has claimed that the first half of v6 is no longer true. The conflict is in your interpretation not mine. Mine is in perfect harmony with the scripture. Also, you do know that there is no commas, semicolans full stops in the Greek right? These were added in by the english translators.

Hope this helps.

You're your not arguing from the Greek. English language rules don't follow Greek language rules. Translation conveys thought.

 

[ace of hearts]

Quoting what I have said as shown earlier is not the problem. Your earlier posts in response to my posts on ROMANS 6-8 did not respond to the content and scriptures provided except to make claims in your own words not founded on the scriptures or to make claims and arguments (strawman) no one was talking about or claiming. You are still to respond to the posts and scriputures that disagreed with you. Except you have admitted your mistake that we are to die to sin now and not the law as you posted earlier which is good.

Hope this helps

You only prove by your posts you don't keep the famous 10 as you claim.

 

[ace of hearts]

Not at all I believe it. The NEW COVENANT is not like the OLD COVENANT. Your confusion is what you think the OLD COVENANT is as shown in earlier posts and the scriptures in them. You do not know what the OLD COVENANT is and if you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you understand what the NEW COVENANT is that the OLD COVENANT pointed to? Your error is that you mix up the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 with God's ETERNAL law (10 Commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. God's 4th commandment is one of the 10 commandments. God's WORD tells us that if we break any one of God's commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. God's WORD says that all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

No. At best you claim to keep opposing covenants. My Bible says -

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Since I understand you will disagree with actual words of the text, the truth is it doesn't matter what the two masters are.

 

[ace of hearts]

Because only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. Jesus says those that KNOWINGLY follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Who should we follow, God or man ACTS 5:29; ROMANS 3:4?

It's more like you're calling me a liar.

 

[ace of hearts]

Once again your error here is that you mix up the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 with God's ETERNAL law (10 Commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. God's 4th commandment is one of God's ETERNAL LAWS (10 commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is if knowingly broken.

Once again I don't. I believe and practice the new covenant, while you claim to practice the old covenant. Really your claim is you practice both opposing covenants at the same time. That's impossible.

 

[ace of hearts]

Not of the letter but of the spirit.
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

You read the above verse to say -

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve the law in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. I highlighted my words in red.

 

[ace of hearts]

I am not insisting that people do anything. I am stating my position on a topic as you are stating yours. I am quoting scripture, the bases for my believes, not merely my personal, unfounded opinion. I have no need to banter philosophy, but prefer a thus saith the Lord for my believes.

You're clearly requiring others to serve the law.

 

[ace of hearts]

Why do you select only SDA's?

Who is interacting here? SDA people, right?

 

[ace of hearts]

I must surrender to a nap attack for now. I'll read your in depth explanation later.



Jesus and I both explained the spirit of the law---but you keep on about the letter of the law without explaining exactly what your explanation of the spirit of the law means. Again:

Mar_10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Isa_26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

It isn't the "spirit of the law," it's the " For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus". This is vastly different for the "spirit of the law" you talk about.

 

[ace of hearts]

OK. The letter of the law is inflexible and must be fully obeyed. Any deflection from full obedience to that letter makes you guilty, of breaking the entire law and under condemnation, as from what you have previously written I guess you agree. IE Thou shalt not covet. It does not say: You may covet occasionally and if you do, that is ok, for you are only human, it says: Thou shalt not covet. No wiggle room at all. Perfect obedience of the letter or you are guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments. And as you say, break one you break them all. Another way of putting it is. Be perfect in your flesh or you are guilty of breaking the entire law(James2:10) That is the letter of the law that kills, for no one is perfect in their flesh

The Spirit of the law

You in your heart want to obey God, for that is where his laws have been placed under the new covenant. But though that is what you want, in your humanity you never will perfectly obey the law. But as long as you are looking to your saviour and in your heart wanting to live an evermore Christlike like, you are following after the Spirit of the law in your life. Though whilst you follow after the Spirit of the law, you will inevitably break the letter of the Ten Commandments.

Therefore, to say you must obey the ten commandments to enter heaven/remain in a righteous state is going to mean you flip flop all the time between being in a saved and unsaved state. I could go much further than that, but not now.

Yes they promote a very unsure thing. They live in fear.

 

[ace of hearts]

in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.

Why do you continue to misrepresent what this verse says with a half sentence/half verse quote?

 

[ace of hearts]

Did you read my post?? Not even the 1 John 2 section? it was just a few verses at that point?

I did. Do you think your 1 Jn 2 presentation prevents sin? If so why did John say -

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

John is talking about current conditions (sins), not the past sins.

 

[ace of hearts]

in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.
And under the Gospel "these things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1
And under the Gospel "IF anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1

However all the lost and unsaved world are "under the LAW" Romans 3:19-21 to this very day - that is how the lost "are lost" -- under the condemnation of the Law.

Rom 3:19-21 doesn't say what you want it to say. It doesn't say the whole world is under the law. It doesn't matter how often you re-post it.

True. Just as it says "you hall not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7. It does not say "except occasionally as you feel the urge of the moment - then that is ok" or "Except if you are a born again Christian - and then taking God's name in vain is ok"



As James 2 says "break one .. you are breaking them all".

so then you are stuck with "no taking God's name in vain"... is that a problem?

Romans 8 says it is a problem for the lost in Rom 8:4-10 "they do not subject themselves to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" as contrasted to the saints "who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Rom 8 isn't taking about the lost.

So I repeat the 1 John 2 section above "matters". Here it is "again".

in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.
And under the Gospel "these things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1
And under the Gospel "IF anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1

What is John saying with 2:1?

However all the lost and unsaved world are "under the LAW" Romans 3:19-21 to this very day - that is how the lost "are lost" -- under the condemnation of the Law.

Not the way I read the actual passage.