The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,507
7,861
...
✟1,194,200.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Those are not my words, they are the words of the lexicon you quoted. "To be a herald" is the act of being a herald (ie. a verb).

It further clarifies the meaning:

"to proclaim after the manner of a herald"
"to publish, proclaim openly"


The source link you provided explicitly says the word is a verb, not a noun.

If Paul had meant 'preacher' he would have used the noun version of the word - kērux.

Strong's Concordance
kérux: a herald
Original Word: κῆρυξ, υκος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kérux
Phonetic Spelling: (kay'-roox)
Definition: a herald
Usage: a herald, preacher, proclaimer.

So the KJV has wrongly translated the verb as a noun in "how shall they hear without a preacher?". Giving the impression that the noun "preacher" is in the original Greek. It may not make much difference to the meaning of the verse, but it allows someone to latch onto the word and twist it's meaning into something else which would not otherwise happen if it was correctly translated 'preaching' as other versions do.

Again, the context is more fitting with it being "preacher" because of the reasons I pointed out. Strong's Concordance does not say that the word "preacher" is an error in the KJV.

Certain Modern Translations say.... "someone preaching to them." What is the rendering of.... someone preaching to them? A "preacher." Same thing. It is not an error in translation. The KJV is saying the same thing as Modern Translations in this case. But there are many changes for the worse and not for the better in Modern Translations when you compare it to the KJV. Things that attack the deity of Jesus Christ, the blood atonement, holiness, etc. I am amazed that when I do show such verses to people who are in favor of Modern Translations and dislike the KJV, they cannot see what I am trying to present to them. Surely this is a spiritual matter and not an intellectual one alone. We learn by the anointing of the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27). You are making this all about what scholars say. Jesus says beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who TRAN-scribed the Law or the Scriptures.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: LoveofTruth
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,347.00
Faith
Christian
Every verse I gave speaks of waiting and watching and having revelation from the Lord for guidance , ministry, teaching, exhortation, speech and prayer. I do not use the words you use. You try to create your own words for me when you say,

"Not one of those passages is referring to waiting in silence until an 'Inner Light' is felt"

or

"Nothing whatsoever about waiting for a feeling."


I don't use those words.

My original statement was "The Quakers were/are known to sit in silence and meditate until they felt the 'Inner Light' teaching them something." You then defended that practice of theirs and quoted heaps of unrelated scriptures to try and prove it was biblical. But none of the verses you quoted say that we are to wait in silence for an Inner Light to tell us something, or anything of the sort.

I would say they wait on the Lord who works in all believers to make them perfect unto every good work and every utterance in the Spirit. I would say that we do not walk by feelings outside of faith. We can feel after the Lord in a spiritual sense and find him inwardly (Acts 17). In the sense of hearing his voice and seeing things that are not seen. We have spiritual senses that are exercised
But these senses are not carnal or fleshly.
Acts 17:27
"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"

Without Jesus in us speaking and working and without the Father in us working and without the Holy Ghost in us working and leading, how can any know anything from God? The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit neither can he know them, they are spiritually discerned.

Jesus does not speak to us by feelings. There is not one scripture that says that. You keep quoting Acts 17:27 "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, " but that is not referring to inner feelings. The word for 'feel' there is psélaphaó which means to feel with your hands, not feel as in an inner sense.

Strong's Concordance
psélaphaó: to feel or grope about
Original Word: ψηλαφάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: psélaphaó
Phonetic Spelling: (psay-laf-ah'-o)
Definition: to feel or grope about
Usage: I feel, touch, handle; I feel after, grope for.

I wonder if some today run from anything spiritual. They seem to try and explain away the miraculous in logical terms, and act as if anything that is a mystery or spiritual is somehow wrong. I wonder what they are claiming to use to understand scripture? is it their natural mind and human wisdom, in books and colleges and Hebrew and Greek? Do they assume to know the things of God by only reading books and using mans wisdom and intellect with, scientific reasoning so called?.

Contorting scripture with theological acrobatics to come up with an interpretation that is contrary to the plain meaning of the passage is not what I would call being spiritual. Someone who is spiritual examines, weighs and compares all interpretations (including their own) to intelligently decide which is correct:

1 Cor 2:15 "But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one."

The fact that no other respected commentators agree with your bizarre views should be ringing alarm bells with you. Instead you treat them with contempt and claim it is a mystery that has only been revealed to you and perhaps a few crackpot Quakers.

But then you try to convince us with your dubious expositions thus making yourself a commentator of scripture as well. You have become one of the very people you denigrate and mock. Rather hypocritical, don't you think?

We are to seek the Lord for all things and gifts and to wait upon him to lead. This is done in silence as we seek him and wait. If we are simply talking away in a gathering and not seeking the Lord or letting the peace of God rule in us and the Word of Christ dwell in us richly how can we edify each other. Only when Jesus Christ is in believers can they effectual edify one another as scripture clearly says. This does not leave room for mans carnal speaking and natural wisdom and talk in his flesh.

Letting "the peace of God rule in your hearts" and "the Word of Christ dwell in us richly" is nothing to do with waiting in silence until we feel God speaking to us. Again you are twisting scripture.

To speak with tongues is as any sit in silence and wait to have the Lord give such a gift and utterance.

Wrong. Tongues speakers were never told to sit in silence and wait for an utterance to come. They were told to sit in silence if no interpreter was present.

1 Cor 14:28 "but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church;"

To prophesy is to also sit in silence or "hold their peace", until the Lord guides and gives a revelation or anything that is needed for mutual edification exhortation and comfort.

Wrong again. The revelation was already given and being taught. If a second prophet received a new message, the first prophet was to "hold his peace" and give way to the second. Not sit and wait until he received a prophecy.

1 Cor 14:30-31 "If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace."

The teachers may already have had a revelation in the word and from the Spirit and they can share this in a different sense than the prophecy because they already have the knowledge. But they also are to WAIT on their teaching (Romans 12:7 KJV).

Wrong. The word 'wait' does not appear in the Greek, or in any other bible translation. It's not even in the textus receptus. Another example of poor KJV translating.

Here are some speaking and utterance verses to consider. These "utterances" are by the Spirit as the context shows. He is not simply speaking of them talking in their natural man. God has to open the door of utterance and give such a ability.

I marvel that these basic christian principles are not known by some. It is troubling.

Romans 12:3-7 KJV
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me"


Acts 2:4
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."


1 Corinthians 1:5
"That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;"


2 Corinthians 8:7
"Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also."


Ephesians 6:19
"And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,"


Colossians 4:3
"Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:


Ephesians 3:7
"Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Strawman. I never said the speaking gifts (prophecy/tongues) or apostles did not speak by the Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,347.00
Faith
Christian
As far as your mockery and shunning of the Light of Christ as a "feeling".

How very dishonest of you to make such a false accusation. I never once mocked the light of Christ, nor did I say it is a feeling. That is your view and that of the Quakers, not mine.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No, you are twisting scripture yet again.

I do not twist scripture.

In Peter's vision, God does not say that Cornelius and the Gentiles

Peter was going specifically to Cornelius and others would have been there. I speak of Cornelius not all Gentiles. I am aware of your fallacy arguments and the way you twist words to try and make a straw man and other fallacy arguments to distract and change the direction of our discussion but this is not right to do,

I am very specific in my words and who I am referring to.

God was showing Peter that Peter was to go to the Gentiles and Cornelius was the person that was referred to in this section. Not that all Gentiles are made clean, but that Cornelius was and Cornelius needed to receive the baptism with the Holy Ghost as the chapter speaks of. This is only given in the name of Jesus Christ as i understand. For it is Jesus who baptizes with the Holy Ghost.

But we read of the story where Cornelius was sent to Peter (Not all Gentiles at that time). But Cornelius being a Gentile represented the open door to all Gentiles that God was giving through the preaching to come into the outward visible church and the New Covenant.

"3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:"(Acts 10:3-5 KJV)

Here we see that Cornelius was specifically spoken of. So when God said this to Peter he was refering to what Peter would be doing soon with Cornelius and those with him. But Cornelius was the focus and the Gentiles were types of unclean animals in that vision

"12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven...Behold, three men seek thee."

Clearly this is in reference to what Peter was going to do when he met the three men and Cornelius was among them. We see that this vision meant "men" and not simply animals in this section,

"25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."(Acts 10:25-28 KJV)

Here we see clearly that the Vision was speaking of the "man" Cornelius, and not all Gentiles being cleansed. In a general sense God has also made way for the Gentiles to be cleansed through repentance and faith as well. But specifically this refers to Cornelius who had his prayers come before God as a memorial and he feared God and worked righteousness and gave alms. He manifested the fruits of faith and peter recognized it and had a revelation of Gods work in all nations Vs 34,35. This was said before he even spoke of the name Jesus to them.

have now been made clean, by which you mean clean from sin, ie saved.

Cornelius was like an Old testament SAINT. The word "saint" meaning "holy, godly". There are many references to the s"saints" of God int he zoT

Psalm 31:23
"O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer."


These men were saved and holy and preserved by God and "his" saints. I see all OT saints this way such as Abraham, Noah, Abel, Enoch, etc., including Cornelius.

The cleansing was to do with the prohibited food in the vision -
"...God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."(Acts 10:25-28 KJV)

Nobody is cleansed from their sin until they trust in Christ and are washed in the blood of the Lamb.
While all salvation is only THROUGH the work of Christ on the cross your correction is here in this section,

"1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness."(Psalm 51:1-14 KJV)

We read many words here from David. He ask for mercy, to blot out, wash me, cleanse me, purge me, Make me, hide thy face from my sin, create a clean heart in him, restore, uphold, deliver him,
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,347.00
Faith
Christian
No, if you read the context he had just spoken of Christ speaking in the OT saints and the word of Christ is near them (Compare Deuteronomy 30 and no, you did not deal with that section at all, your interpretation was faulty), that is the same word of faith that he preached. The same as the OT Saints had and they had.

No, Paul used a couple of proverbial sayings from Deut 30, to make the point that finding Christ is similarly not difficult to attain, as the commentators I have quoted agree. He was not giving us an re-interpretation of Deut 30 and changing it's natural meaning as you bizarrely claim.

Then he speaks of anyone calling on the name of the Lord and no matter who they were Jew or Gentile. The natural questions would be how can they hear without a preacher? or whom they have not believed ? etc. Paul answer those questions in two verses as I showed you he says very clearly I (to the unbiased reader).

Wrong. Paul doesn't answer the questions. Because they are rhetorical questions (questions whose answers are so obvious that none need be given).

Rom 10:13-15 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? [they can't - nobody can call on someone they haven't first believed in]. And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [they can't - nobody can believe in Him without hearing about him]. And how are they to hear without someone preaching? [they can't - nobody can hear a message without someone preaching it].

Paul is making the point that nobody can call on the name of the Lord and be saved without first hearing the gospel. As he confirms in verse 17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ"

And all commentators agree.

He also quotes in vs 18 Psalms 19. This is a very telling verse and shows the divine preacher has already spoken through all creation and the word, or line, and speech has gone through all the world. In fact all things are up[held by the word of His power and nothing is hid from the heat thereof. So if the word is close to all then God is able to reach all no matter where they are. I will quote Psalm 19 and select certain words for the ones who consider these things in the spirit.

"18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Wrong again. Verse 18 is suggesting a potential reason why the Jews in v16 did not heed the gospel message. "Have they not heard?", Paul suggests. "Indeed they have", he replies. He then uses the words of Psalm 19 to explain that the gospel preachers had already gone throughout the known world. "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.”

And again all commentators agree.

You have not met or talked with or even read all commentators on the earth. The word "all" is silly. But your argument I can almost here as used by some of the Catholics against the few reformers. They might have felt they had strength in numbers and so they MUST be right. The logic is faulty. They could have said to the reformers, Wycliff, Huss, Luther "All the Catholic commentators agree with me and none agree with you so you must be wrong". This is not a wise way to look at things.

I've read dozens of commentaries on Rom 10, old and new. I've not found one that agrees with you. If you are correct you would expect at least a few theologians to agree with you.

There was more than one Reformer who disproved Catholic teaching, there were dozens of them. And there have been thousands since. You have not shown us a single commentator who agrees with your theory. Or maybe you are the first one to nail your thesis to the door, and you will be the pioneer of a new Reformation causing an avalanche of theologians to change their minds and re-write their commentaries. Then again, maybe not. But it did give a me good chuckle to see you compare yourself to the Reformers.

With no third party support, I think we can safely consign your strange theory to the theological dustbin.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
My original statement was "The Quakers were/are known to sit in silence and meditate until they felt the 'Inner Light' teaching them something."

The "inner Light" as you refer to it. Is Jesus Christ the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. This light from Christ is the word and seed and truth that works in all those who believe. This light is the light of the glorious gospel of Christ who shines in the heart (2 Cor 4) you do not see these things because I am convinced you are looking at the scriptures in the natural way and not in a spiritual way. You claim not to even hear the voice of the shepherd or have God speak to you inwardly or lead you. i don't need to say anything that you have not already said by your denial of clear scripture and truth. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and have his word abiding in them and they have the light of life in them and walk in that light. If the Light of Christ does not speak, lead, guide teach then what do you suppose the light does? The light also reproves rebukes warns shines on the darkness manifest all things and is vital to every believer.

I told you I am not a Quaker. However I do agree with some of their principles. Their understanding of the Light of Christ is very relevant and scriptural. Your attack upon them and myself for speaking of the Light of Christ in men and that we are to walk in the light is similar to many who denied that Jesus Christ was in them, when dealing with some Quakers of old. Some of the religious men of the towns would ask the "Quaker" evangelist if they were Jesus Christ, since the Quakers spoke of Christ in them. The Quakers would say no, they are not Jesus Christ but he is in them. Some of them, even John Bunyand and others would say that Jesus Christ is far from the believer in heaven and they would be saying that he is not in them. The Quakers would respond by saying that if they did not have Jesus Christ in them they were reprobate , or something to that effect quoting many scriptures. The similar arguments you gave seem to line up with the opponents of yesterday in this regard. It is unfortunate.

Here is a reference and quote from the Quaker to John Buyand and Richard Baxter and others.

Here George fox answers the letters written against them from John Bunyan, Richard Spencely, John Burton, and John Childe. The PR part is from their book the Ans. Is Goerge Fox responding. Goerge Fox is refering to their wrtings in the Pr. part.

Notice the similarity to your argument and the response Fox may have given you as well.

I agree with some of the responses, these ones here particularly.

"John Bunyan, Richard Spenceley, John Burton, and John Childe, in their book that they call, 'A vindication of a book called some Gospel Truths Opened.' These principles follows....

Pr. Again, Bunyan is railing against the priests, and runs up into the pulpit himself.


Ans. And so the wolf hath got the sheep's clothing, and they can speak of Christ without, who be reprobates, who have him not within...



Pr. He saith, 'The Lord Jesus Christ is afar off in his bodily presence.'


Ans. he saith, 'The Lord is at hand!' And the apostle saith, 'he was in them.' And Christ said, he would 'dwell with them....

Pr. He saith, 'The Quakers witness the teaching within,' he saith 'The apostles witnesseth the contrary,' &c. page 4.


Ans. Why dost thou wrong the apostle, and put thy lies abroad, when as the apostle said, and Christ said, the spirit of the Father spoke in them. And the apostle said, the law and the covenant of God was in their hearts, and the anointing was within them, to teach them. But why fightest thou against the apostle's teaching, the apostle's doctrine, and Christ's doctrine? Dost thou not see thy weapon now fails thee? Thou hast cast thyself without, and have not the apostle and Christ corrected thee here now?"...


Pr. He saith, 'that the son of Mary, God-man, is absent from his church.'

Ans. Contrary to Christ's words, 'I in them, and they in me:' and 'I will be with you to the end.' So one of the blind prophets, contrary to John, who saith, 'We are in him, and that is true;' and thou sayst he is absent from his church. And the apostle said he was the 'head of the church.' But of your church we believe he is not the head, but will grind you to powder. And thy words and thy doctrine are corrected by Christ and the scriptures. And Christ said, 'Where two or three meet together in my name, I will be amongst them,' and the saints were 'flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone...


Pr. He saith, 'It is a delusion of the devil, and a dangerous doctrine, to bid people follow the light within them.'

Ans. And they be in the dangerous doctrine, and the delusions of the devil, that draws people from the light within. And thus he doth oppose the foundation of God, the 'light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world,' and the doctrine of the apostle, who saith, 'the light that shines in their hearts' must 'give them the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus.' So he is one of the devil's ministers, opposing the foundation of God, drawing people from that the apostles drew them to; for no one comes to the kingdom, but who comes to the light within them....


Pr. Thou sayst, 'Christ is the light of the world, and yet not in every one that cometh into the world.'

Ans. So corrected by John, who saith, 'he doth enlighten every man that cometh into the world.' And 'the light shines in darkness,' and the darkness cannot 'comprehend' it; and 'he that hates the light' is enlightened, and 'will not come to it because it will reprove him.' That which doth manifest to man an understanding of reproof, is within him, and that condemns him, hating it. And the saints believed in the light, and they abode not in darkness, which the unbelievers do, and stumbles, which the others do not...


Pr. he saith, 'Christ was not in his disciples when he said, 'I am the light of the world.'

Ans. And so is corrected by Christ, who saith, 'I in you, and you in me...


Pr. He saith, 'The light wherewith Christ doth enlighten every one that cometh into the world, is but a creature, and is not a spirit,' page 10.

Ans. And John saith, 'All things were made by him, (made by the light,) in him was life, and the life was the light of men:' and this shines in darkness, and the darkness cannot comprehend it. But all stumbling at the foundation of God, which was before any creature was made, who is the power of God, Christ Jesus the light; and the prophets' and John's doctrine they stumbled at, who saith, the light is a creature, by which all things are made and created, and so thou art corrected by the scripture...


Pr. He calls the light 'conscience,' and 'a poor dunghill creature that will convince of sin.'

Ans. Which light was before conscience was, or creature was, or created or made light was. He made the sun, the moon, &c. and the light which was before these were made; and he is both life and spirit too. For that which convinceth of sin is above the creature; which checks him, and reproves him, and lets him see when he goeth astray from the Creator, and that's the light of Christ, with which all men may see their salvation, with that which lets them see their sin."

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No, Paul used a couple of proverbial sayings from Deut 30, to make the point that finding Christ is similarly not difficult to attain, as the commentators I have quoted agree. He was not giving us an re-interpretation of Deut 30 and changing it's natural meaning as you bizarrely claim.
Paul was not giving a re interpretation, but a spiritual one, revealing a mystery. It is only bizzar to those who see naturally. Clearly Paul shows from Deut. 30 that Christ was intended in the verses.

You even use the word "naturally" in your words. This is what you speak from as it is now clear for all to see, you have found yourself out thank the lord, you said;

"it's natural meaning"

But consider

these verses about seeing spiritually and naturally

"13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:12-14 KJV)

"10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."(Jude 1:10 KJV)
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,347.00
Faith
Christian
"from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole"

I am well aware of the meanings of the Greek word sozo. That's why I said "Saved means saved here, not 'made whole'."

The overwhelming usage of the word in the NT is translated "saved" (90 out of 108 instances). In the handful of times the KJV translates it as 'made whole' is always referring to physical healing of a disability. Cornelius was not healed of a physical disability. He was saved, and only after Peter preached his message - just as Acts 11:14 says.

You never answered my question, "Has the KJV, and all other versions, translated the word wrongly?". And I bet you won't answer it again.

Where does it say that?

Acts 11:14 "and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."

Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

1 Peter 1:23-25 "Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.....And this word is the good news that was preached to you."

Rom 10:13-17: For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?...So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

To be saved is through Jesus Christ who died for the sin of the world and was burried and rose again. This is the salvation. But even the OT saints were saved having not seen Jesus Christ yet, or the salvation Jesus Brought. This is the point. God can save men even before Jesus Christ came, though not without his work for them in time. They in the OT looked forward to the work of God's righteousness being revealed in Jesus Christ and His work, we look back at that finished work. Salvation has always been the same by grace through faith. Even in the OT . If a person is saved they will show forth that life and work of God in their life and work righteousness.

Strawman. I never said otherwise. In fact that is what I had to explain to you earlier about how OT saints were saved by faith in Christ.

If a person is saved they will show forth that life and work of God in their life and work righteousness. God works in them. So John says whoever worketh righteousness is born of him. This also Peter says when he says ,

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."(Acts 10:34,35 KJV)

Good works is one evidence of being saved. But just because someone does good works doesn't mean they are saved. JW's, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, even atheists all do good works but they are not saved. Just because Cornelius did good works before he met Peter doesn't mean he was saved.
yet scripture corrects you.No one is accepted outside the beloved,

Ephesians 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."


and all we need are Peters words of revelation about Cornelius and others like him, when Peter said

Wrong. Scripture doesn't correct me. Instead you have shot yourself in the foot.

The word in Eph 1:6 is charitoó, and is not the same word as 'accepted' in Acts 10:35 (dektos).

In fact the word in Eph 1.:6 doesn't even mean accepted, and no translation aside from the KVJ and its derivatives translates it as such.

Strong's Concordance
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace
Usage: I favor, bestow freely on.

Hence other translations render it:

ESV to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
NASB to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
NIV to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
RSV to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.


Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with [notice the word "with" here, no man is "with" God unless they are in Christ] him."


The word "accepted" means "approved".

Approved doesn't mean saved either.

The word dektos appears 4 other times in the NT. Not one of them does it mean saved.

Luke 4:19 KJV: To preach the acceptable year
Luke 4:24 KJV: No prophet is accepted in his own country
2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted,
Philippians 4:18 KJV an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God

The Gentiles were now acceptable to God. But they were not saved.

Notice here that God does not "accept" those who are still in sin and rebellion nor hear them. The word "accept" here also means "approve, pardon, be pleased with.

"10 Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. 11 Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. 12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them"(Isaiah 14:10-12 KJV)

All you are doing is grasping at straws by searching for the word "accept" and coming up with examples that are not even the same Greek word. You are beating around the bush, when scripture tells plainly us that Cornelius was not saved until Peter spoke to him. It's as clear as day:

Acts 11:14 "and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I've read dozens of commentaries on Rom 10, old and new. I've not found one that agrees with you. If you are correct you would expect at least a few theologians to agree with you.
I showed you many quotes. They all refer to the mystery, the True Light and seed and the word sown. They also connect this evangelical (preaching) principle to Romans 10 and Moses in Deut 30. This is just a sample of the understanding that was available. So your entire argument against me in this fails as almost every word you have spoken against the truth of Christ speaking in all believers has.

"Secondly, That for this end God hath communicated and given unto every man a measure of the Light of his own Son, a measure of grace, or a measure of the Spirit, which the Scripture expresses by several names, as sometimes of "the seed of the kingdom" (Matt. 13:18-19); the "Light that makes all things manifest" (Eph. 5:13); the "Word of God" (Rom. 10:17)" (Robert Barclay 1678)

"That this saving Light and Seed, or a measure of it, is given to all, Christ telleth expressly in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13 from v. 18; Mark 4, and Luke 8:11), he saith That this "seed" sown in those several sorts of grounds is the "Word of the Kingdom," which the apostle calls the Word of faith (Rom. 10:8, James 1:21) the "implanted ingrafted Word, which is able to save the soul"; the words themselves declare that it is that, which is saving, in the nature of it, for in the good ground, it fructified abundantly."(Robert Barclay 1678)

Clement of Alexandria saith (lib. 2, Stromat.), "The divine Word hath cried, calling all, knowing well those that will not obey. And yet, because it is in our power either to obey or not to obey, that none may have a pretext of ignorance it hath made a righteous call and requireth but that which is according to the ability and strength of every one." The selfsame, in his Warning to the Gentiles: "For as" (saith he) "that heavenly ambassador of the Lord, the grace of God that brings salvation, hath appeared unto all, &c. This is the new song, coming, and manifestation of the Word which now shows itself in us, which was in the beginning and was first of all." And again, "Hear, therefore, ye that are afar off; hear ye who are near; the Word is hid from none, the Light is common to all and shineth to all. There is no darkness in the Word; let us hasten to salvation, to the new birth, that we, being many, may be gathered unto the one alone love." Ibid., he saith that "There is infused into all, but principally into those that are trained up in doctrine, a certain divine influence,." And again he speaketh concerning "the innate witness, worthy of belief, which of itself doth plainly choose that which is most honest." And again he saith, "That it is not impossible to come unto the Truth and lay hold of it, seeing it is most near to us, in our own houses, as the most wise Moses declareth, living in three parts of us: viz., in our hands, in our mouth, and in our heart. This," saith he, "is a most true badge of the Truth, which is also fulfilled in three things, namely in counsel, in action, in speaking." And again he saith also unto the unbelieving nations, "Receive Christ, receive Light, receive sight to the end thou mayest rightly know both God and man. The Word that hath enlightened us is more pleasant than gold, and the stone of great value." And again he saith, "Let us receive the Light that we may receive God; let us receive the Light that we may be the scholars of the Lord." And again he saith to those infidel nations, "The heavenly Spirit helpeth thee; resist and flee pleasure." Again (lib. Strom. 5) he saith, "God forbid that man be not a partaker of divine acquaintance, who in Genesis is said to be a partaker of inspiration." And (Paed. lib,. 1, cap. 3), "There is," saith he, "some lovely and some desirable thing in man which is called the in-breathing of God,." The same man (lib. Strom. 10) directeth men unto the Light and Water in themselves, who have the eye of the soul darkened or dimmed through evil upbringing and learning: let them enter in unto their own domestic Light, or unto the Light which is in their own house, unto the Truth which manifests accurately and clearly these things that have been written.


Justin Martyr, in his first apology, saith, "that the Word which was and is, is in all; even that very same Word which, through the prophets, foretold things to come."


The writer of the Call of all Nations, saith (lib. i, cap. 2), "We believe according to the same (viz. Scripture), and most religiously confess, that God was never wanting in care to the generality of men; who although he did lead by particular lessons, a people gathered to himself unto godliness, yet he withdrew from no nation of men the gifts of his own goodness, that they might be convinced that they had received the words of the prophets, and legal commands in services and testimonies of the first principles." Cap. 7, he saith, "That he believes that the help of grace hath been wholly withdrawn from no man." Lib. 2, cap. l, "Because, albeit salvation is far from sinners, yet there is nothing void of the presence and virtue of his salvation." Cap. 2, "But seeing none of that people over whom was set both the doctrines, were justified but through Grace by the Spirit of faith, who can question, but that they, who of whatsoever nation, in whatsoever times, could please God, were ordered by the Spirit of the Grace of God: which albeit in fore-time it was more sparing and hid, yet denied itself to no ages, being in virtue one, in quantity different, in counsel unchangeable, in operation multifarious."

Clement of Alexandria saith (Apol. ii., Strom. lib. i.), that "this wisdom or philosophy was necessary to the Gentiles, and was their schoolmaster to lead them unto Christ, by which of old the Greeks were justified."


"Nor do I think," saith Augustine, in his book of the City of God, lib. 18, cap. 47, "that the Jews dare affirm that none belonged unto God but the Israelites." Upon which place Ludovicus Vives saith, that "thus the Gentiles, not having a law, were a law unto themselves; and the light of so living is the gift of God, and proceeds from the Son; of whom it is written that he enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."

Augustine also testifies in his Confessions (lib. 7, cap. 9), that "he had read in the writings of the Platonists, though not in the very same words, yet that which by many and multiplied reasons did persuade, that 'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, this was in the beginning with God, by which all things were made, and without which nothing was made that was made: in him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men: and the Light shined in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And, albeit the soul gives testimony concerning the Light, yet it is not the Light, but the Word of God; for God is the true Light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world'"; and so repeats to verse 14 of John 1, adding, "These things have I there read."

Yea, there is a book translated out of the Arabic, which gives an account of one Hai Eben Yokdan, who, without converse of man, living in an island alone, attained to such a profound knowledge of God, as to have immediate converse with him, and to affirm, "That the best and most certain knowledge of God, is not that which is attained by premises premised, and conclusions deduced, but that which is enjoyed by conjunction of the mind of man with the supreme intellect, after the mind is purified from its corruptions, and is separated from all bodily images, and is gathered into a profound

Seeing then it is by this inward Gift, Grace, and Light, that both those, that have the Gospel preached unto them, come to have Jesus brought forth in them, and to have the saving and sanctified use of all outward helps and advantages; and also by this same Light, that all may come to be saved; and that God calls, invites, and strives with all, in a day, and saveth many, to whom he hath not seen meet to convey this outward knowledge; therefore we, having the experience of the inward and powerful work of this Light in our hearts, even Jesus revealed in us, cannot cease to proclaim the day of the Lord, that it is arisen in it, crying out with the woman of Samaria; "Come and see one, that hath told me all that ever I have done: Is not this the Christ?" That others may come and feel the same in themselves, and may know, that little small thing that reproves them in their hearts, however they have despised it and neglected it, is nothing less than the Gospel preached in them; "Christ, the wisdom and power of God," being in and by that Seed seeking to save their souls.

Of this Light therefore Augustine speaks in his Confessions (lib. 11, cap. 9): "In this beginning, O God! thou madest the heavens and the earth, in thy Word, in thy Son, in thy virtue, in thy wisdom, wonderfully saying, and wonderfully doing. Who shall comprehend it? Who shall declare it? What is that which shineth in unto me, and smites my heart without hurt, at which I both tremble, and am inflamed? I tremble, in so far as I am unlike unto it; and I am inflamed in so far as I am like unto it? It is Wisdom, which shineth in unto me and dispelleth my cloud, which had again covered me, after I was departed from that darkness and 11 of my punishments." And again he saith (lib. x., cap. 27), "It is too late that I have loved thee, O thou beautifulness, so ancient, and so new, late have I loved thee, and behold thou wast within, and I was without, and there was seeking thee! thou didst call, thou didst cry, thou didst break my deafness, thou glancedst, thou didst shine, thou chasedst away my darkness."

Of this also our countryman, George Buchanan, speaketh thus in his book, De Jure Regni apud Scotos: "Truly I understand no other thing at present, than that Light, which is divinely infused into our souls; for when God formed man, he not only gave him eyes to his body, by which he might shun those things that are hurtful to him, and follow those things that are profitable. But also hath set before his mind, as it were, a certain Light, by which he may discern things that are vile from things that are honest. Some call this power nature, others the law of nature; I truly judge it to be divine, and am persuaded that nature and wisdom never say different things. Moreover God hath given us a compend of the law, which in few words comprehends the whole: to wit, that we should love him from our hearts, and our neighbours as ourselves. And of this law all the books of the Holy Scriptures, which pertain to the forming of manners, contain no other but an explication."

This is that universal, evangelical principle in and by which this salvation of Christ is exhibited to all men, both Jew and Gentile, Scythian and Barbarian, of whatsoever country or kindred he be. And therefore God hath raised up unto himself, in this our age, faithful witnesses and evangelists to preach again his everlasting Gospel, and to direct all, as well the high professors, who boast of the Law, and the Scriptures, and the outward knowledge of Christ, as the infidels and heathens that know not him that way, that they may all come to mind the Light in them, and know Christ in them, "the Just One, whom they have so long killed and made merry over, and he hath not resisted" (James 5:6), and give up their sins, iniquities, false faith, professions, and outside righteousness, to be crucified by the power of his cross in them, so as they may know Christ within to be the "hope of glory," and may come to walk in his Light and be saved, who is that "true Light that enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,347.00
Faith
Christian
I never said Cornelius was a "christian" before he met Peter. I said he was saved a child of God. The name "Christian" is connected to those who know about Jesus Christ and the work he did. Abraham was saved by grace through faith and mentioned with others in the faith chapter of Hebrews 11 and he did not know Jesus Christ in the flesh yet or see the finished work yet. He could not be called a "christian" in that sense. Though he was saved and had the seed of Christ in him and was a child of God as scripture clearly shows to the unbiased reader.

Ok. If you want to be pedantic replace my word "Christians" with "saved".

First a person hears Gods voice and has the witness in himself. This is the word or seed sown, where Christ speaks to the heart.

Hearing God's voice not an inner witness. It is either hearing his audible voice or hearing or reading scripture,. I have proved that from scripture, which you cannot deny. The seed sown in the heart is God's word preached. The parable of the sower and many other verses make that clear. Once people have responded to that Gospel message and become born again, they will perform acts of righteousness out of gratitude and obedience to their Lord.
This free gift came upon all men unto the justification of life. I believe all OT saints and Cornelius were in this justification and life in Christ

Both OT and NT saints were saved by believing in Christ. Unevangelized Gentiles and tribesmen, no matter how many good works they do or how enlightened they feel, without a saving knowledge of Christ, are not saved. In this current dispensation, belief in the crucified and risen Christ is the only way of salvation.

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 6:69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

John 14:1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.

Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

Just as from Adam condemnation came upon ALL, so also through the work of Christ the FREE GIFT came upon all men. It was through Christ work on the cross in time that God foresaw and so he could give this free gift , this treasure in earthen vessels, the seed, word, true Light to all men and be near them all,calling them all. He did not leave Himself without witness, but filled our hearts with food and gladness.

You have greatly misunderstood Rom 5:18. It is not saying that ALL MEN have Christ. Let's look at the verse in context. Firstly the words "the free gift came upon" do not appear in the original Greek, not even in the textus receptus. They were erroneously added by the KJV translators.

Rom 5:18-19 NASB "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."

It was not a free gift that came upon all men. It was justification of life TO (eis) all men. Justification was now available to all men. The next verse tells us how many would be the beneficiaries of that justification - the many, not all.

I explained John 1:9 in my previous post. And Titus 2:11 only says salvation "has appeared" to all men, not that all men have it.

This was not what Peter was saying.

I know that is not what Peter said. It is what you said that I objected to:

LoveofTruth said:
He was a man that feared God and worked righteousness,and to do such is to be born again as 1 John 2 says

"29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."(1 John 2:29 KJV)

The evidence that they had found the Lord was that they FEARED God and worked righteousness. No unbeliever fears God or works (true) righteousness. The righteounsess all believers work is the righteousness of God from Him as we are made the righteousness of God through faith. Abraham worked a similar righteousness as he had God working in him to will and to do.

The works of righteousness that Cornelius did was he "gave much alms to the people" (Acts 10:2). That in itself is not proof of salvation. Unsaved people also give to the poor. It is evidence that someone may be saved. But we know Cornelius wasn't saved at that point because Acts 11:14 clearly says so.


"26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"(Acts 17:26,27 KJV)

There is no way to deny this truth Paul spoke here. This shows that God is close to all they can feel after him and find him and save all if they find him.

You are wrong. Paul makes no mention of being saved here. Finding God here does not mean being saved. People in Athens evidently had found him, for they had built an altar to him, with the inscription ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ (v23) Paul said this was the God he proclaims, "The God who made the world and all things in it" (v24). And this clearly the sense which Paul meant by finding God in v27 as he continues in the next verse "for in Him we live and move and exist" (v28). Our very existence is proof that we are created by and are dependent on an omnipresent God. People can find and know God by observing nature and themselves, but that doesn't save them as Rom 1:20-21 makes clear:

Rom 1:20-21 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

Knowing there is a God is the good first step, a step that Cornelius had no doubt taken, but the next step is hearing the gospel.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Letting "the peace of God rule in your hearts" and "the Word of Christ dwell in us richly" is nothing to do with waiting in silence until we feel God speaking to us. Again you are twisting scripture.

Yes it does. To let the peace of God rule or govern in our hearts is when we cease from our own works and effort and trying to rule our own life. This implies strongly as waiting on the Lord to renew our strength. And then we are to Let the word of Christ dwell in us richly and from this to teach and admonish one another ...This again shows that it is from Christ in us that we edify eachother, for he works effectually in us to make increase of the body giving to every man a measure of grace and power and all things. This again implies strongly that we are not to rush ahead in our own ways and carnal natural minds. But we have the mind of Christ and he teaches us and speaks in us and directs us and the Father also works in us and the Holy Ghost, as scripture clearly teaches. If we are working and rushing about in our own words and actions and man made programs when gathered, how can God work in this? But if we be still and know that God is in us working and hear His voice then we can have a revelation, or prophecy, or gifts given as he wills. He gives severally all gifts as He wills, not as we will. So this implies silence and waiting upon the Lord.

again you are wrong as you have been in almost every post . It is amazing to me how much error you have in almost every word.

Wrong. The word 'wait' does not appear in the Greek, or in any other bible translation. It's not even in the textus receptus. Another example of poor KJV translating.
"7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;"(Romans 12:7 KJV)

This is the way it should read. Again you are attacking THE bible. It is not helpful to your case to do so. We see more of this waiting in different forms in the same chapter. Paul says

"3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith....6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, [which all must wait upon the Lord for for God gives gifts severally as he wills and in His time, not in ours]. whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"(Romans 12:3,6 KJV)

Here we see that Paul spoke by the grace that was given unto him. This is not in his own natural understanding or as led by his own ways and flesh. But as he was led by the Spirit. This involves waiting or attending or listening for God to lead. We see this also in prophecy, this is as God reveals things to us, not as we speak of ourself.This speaking in a gathering and in our ministry is to be as we are led. Peter says similar. This grace and gifts would include all the gifts and ministry in the body, including teaching, prophecy, exhortation etc. All is to be done as God leads and gives grace and through the ability that God gives. This is not mans wisdom or excellency of speech or puffed up Hebrew and Greek scribes. No this is not like the pharisees who thought they had eternal life in the scriptures, and did not have His word abiding in them, who did not believe in the light and the light in them was darkness.

"10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

If men do not wait upon the Lord and be led by the Spirit in all things, then they are not giving God the glory and will glory in their own works and minds and excellency of speech, vainly puffed up by their fleshly mind. They speak what they know naturally and not in the spirit. They are puffed up and profess themselves wise. God must get all the glory, and only as we wait upon the Lord for all things can we live move and minster. God works in believers to make them perfect unto every good work, working in them that which is well pleasing in His sight. This is again as we wait upon Him, and not rush ahead in our own wills and flesh and natural understanding.

"Utterance" and ministry is of God and through him. Jesus also said that without him we can do nothing.

"6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:"(1 Corinthians 12:6-10 KJV)

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

It seems that whenever you don't like something I show you and the scripture clearly exposes your error, you simply run to some text or commentator who you think agrees with you. I use THE bible, it says to wait upon ministry and it is there. That is good enough. You will need to argue with God why he had the translators put it in there. It make perfect sense structurally in the context.

You saw the word "wait" there and you were troubled, so you rushed in a frantic frenzy to find some variant reading. I don't care if a thousand other translations do not have the word in it, it is there.

But such waiting is needful

Isaiah 40:31
" But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."


Isaiah 40:31
“ Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment."


Psalm 46:10
"Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth."


Psalm 145:15
"The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hearing God's voice not an inner witness. It is either hearing his audible voice or hearing or reading scripture,. I have proved that from scripture, which you cannot deny.
You have proved nothing of the sort and I deny your reasoning and arguments with sound scripture

here's a few to correct you here.

2 Corinthians 13:3
"Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you."


Romans 8:16
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"


John 15:4
"Abide in me, and I in you."

Hebrews 3:15
"While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Rom 5:18. It is not saying that ALL MEN have Christ. Let's look at the verse in context. Firstly the words "the free gift came upon" do not appear in the original Greek, not even in the textus receptus. They were erroneously added by the KJV translators.
No, I believe the other translations corrupt the text and it seems they seek to hide this mystery.

We already saw that Christ is sown as the seed and word in all men in Deuteronomy and other places. This is in line with Paul's words in Romans 10 a few chapters later and Romans 2:14,15 as well.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I explained John 1:9 in my previous post. And Titus 2:11 only says salvation "has appeared" to all men, not that all men have it.
The free gift is the True Light and the seed sown to all men. I did not say all are going to be saved, but this word is sown in the heart, this true Light still lighteth every man. This is Christ shining and witnessing to their hearts. The True Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Many will hate this light and be damned forever. But to those who come to the Light they have life in Christ (John 3). But this relates to the hope of the gospel inwardly.

Infant salvation

But as far as all men having light or salvation in Christ, you must consider infants that are born one day old. Did Christ die for them also? If so, them they also have the true Light and they are not condemned until they hate the light when they do evil deeds as Jesus said in John 3. So in that sense they are saved by the grace of God until they have sin revive (sin nature) and they die as Romans 7:9 says. Paul said he was alive ( spiritually) once, but the commandment came sin revived and he died( spiritually, for he did not die physically at that time. Sin is also not imputed where there is no law and where no law is there is no transgression. So all infants are saved by the grace of God until they hate the light and have their sin nature revived. This would line up with John 1:0 and Titus 2 and Romans 5 that shows the free gift came upon all men until justification of life. He is the saviour of all men specially of those that believe.

Unless you want to consign all infants who die at one day old or in childhood to eternal damnation in the lake of fire where God will say to them, "away from me all ye that work iniquity".
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,347.00
Faith
Christian
Again, the context is more fitting with it being "preacher" because of the reasons I pointed out. Strong's Concordance does not say that the word "preacher" is an error in the KJV.

Certain Modern Translations say.... "someone preaching to them." What is the rendering of.... someone preaching to them? A "preacher." Same thing. It is not an error in translation. The KJV is saying the same thing as Modern Translations in this case. But there are many changes for the worse and not for the better in Modern Translations when you compare it to the KJV. Things that attack the deity of Jesus Christ, the blood atonement, holiness, etc. I am amazed that when I do show such verses to people who are in favor of Modern Translations and dislike the KJV, they cannot see what I am trying to present to them. Surely this is a spiritual matter and not an intellectual one alone. We learn by the anointing of the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27). You are making this all about what scholars say. Jesus says beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who TRAN-scribed the Law or the Scriptures.

The problem is that 'preacher' was not Paul's intended word. If he had meant to say preacher he would have used the word kērux. There are subtle differences between someone 'preaching' and 'a preacher'. 'Preacher' wrongly puts emphasis on the person rather than the act of preaching; it implies someone who is ordained or at least particularly gifted in that role, whereas someone 'preaching' implies anyone can give the gospel message; and someone preaching implies a human activity and would never be misconstrued as a 'divine preacher'.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Unevangelized Gentiles and tribesmen, no matter how many good works they do or how enlightened they feel, without a saving knowledge of Christ, are not saved.
Again your wording is trying to avoid your chief error. I did not say any man is saved by his own good works or how enlightened they feel. They are saved by the grace of God through repentance and faith as all have been of all time.

Scripture clearly corrects your ignorance of the mystery here. Paul even says they can be justified

"13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."(Romans 2:13-15 KJV)

"26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"(Acts 17:26,27 KJV)



"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."(Axts 10:34, 35 KJV)

Isaiah 45:22
"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."


etc etc etc etc etc etc
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The problem is that 'preacher' was not Paul's intended word. If he had meant to say preacher he would have used the word kērux. There are subtle differences between someone 'preaching' and 'a preacher'. 'Preacher' wrongly puts emphasis on the person rather than the act of preaching; it implies someone who is ordained or at least particularly gifted in that role, whereas someone 'preaching' implies anyone can give the gospel message; and someone preaching implies a human activity and would never be misconstrued as a 'divine preacher'.
You totally miss it.

"Preacher" or "the one who preaches", doesn't change anything I was saying. God is the divine preacher or witnesses, shines, reveals, speaks preaches to men inwardly and always has. He does this in many ways, but Paul points out that Christ was there all along working in men. In their hearts. Not that all received him in their hearts, but he was there shining nevertheless.

But Paul was asking questions, assuming the logical deduction from his words that all can call upon the name of the Lord. He already showed that the word in Christ word speaking and working in men by his reference to Deut. He already said that the word is nigh or near all in their hearts and mouths. Now he goes further and shows that God not only witnesses, or preaches in men's hearts but also in the prophets or preachers he sends and in creation (Psalm 19) . He shows that the word of God came to the prophets and preachers. This is how they were sent. No man can preach or be a preacher unless God sends him and leads him by His word. Where do you think the word of God came to the prophets of old? it didn't drop down as a finished book but God worrled in them. The Spirit is only understood in spirit.

and the word is "preacher" in many translations beside the KJV.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,347.00
Faith
Christian
Peter was going specifically to Cornelius and others would ave been there. I speak of Cornelius not all Gentiles. I am aware of your fallacy arguments and the way you twist words to try and make a straw man and other fallacy arguments to distract and change the direction of our discussion but this is not right to do,

No, I am not being dishonest. You said that Acts 10:15 "was speaking of Cornelius in figure and the gentiles in general" (your words)

The verse doesn't say the Cornelius (or the Gentiles) were made clean from sin. It says the food in the sheet was made clean. There is no indication that the food represents Cornelius himself. God was removing the distinction between clean and unclean animals in Jewish Law. All the food in the sheet was declared ok to eat. Peter was no longer to call certain foods ceremonially unclean. It was thus symbolic of removing the same distinction that existed between Jews and Gentiles.

Clearly this is in reference to what Peter was going to do when he met the three men and Cornelius was among them. We see that this vision meant "men" and not simply animals in this section,

"25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."(Acts 10:25-28 KJV)

Here we see clearly that the Vision was speaking of the "man" Cornelius, and not all Gentiles being cleansed.

Read the verse again. It says "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." It wasn't referring just to Cornelius. It was any man, any Gentile, that Peter was not to call unclean. Not that they were cleansed from sin (as you think Cornelius was), but there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The works of righteousness that Cornelius did was he "gave much alms to the people" (Acts 10:2). That in itself is not proof of salvation. Unsaved people also give to the poor. It is evidence that someone may be saved. But we know Cornelius wasn't saved at that point because Acts 11:14 clearly says so.
No, Peter said he "perceived" of a truth, it was a revelation from God that he was given. He could discern by faith and God showed him. Never the less these were the marks of believers as Peter said and as John said. I speak of true fear of God and true working righteousness.God works in all believers to make them perfect unto every good work. And yes God was in the OT saints as many scriptures can show and working in them and they were born again and had the Spirit of Christ in them and the Father.

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."(Acts 10:34,35 KJV)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,379
1,750
✟166,983.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No, I am not being dishonest. You said that Acts 10:15 "was speaking of Cornelius in figure and the gentiles in general" (your words)

The verse doesn't say the Cornelius (or the Gentiles) were made clean from sin. It says the food in the sheet was made clean. There is no indication that the food represents Cornelius himself. God was removing the distinction between clean and unclean animals in Jewish Law. All the food in the sheet was declared ok to eat. Peter was no longer to call certain foods ceremonially unclean. It was thus symbolic of removing the same distinction that existed between Jews and Gentiles.



Read the verse again. It says "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." It wasn't referring just to Cornelius. It was any man, any Gentile, that Peter was not to call unclean. Not that they were cleansed from sin (as you think Cornelius was), but there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile.
Yes, "any man" extends to all Gentiles who God cleanses. But in this case it was directly connected to Cornelius. The context is directly connected to Peter eating in a Gentiles house ( Cornelius)

read again the singular and plural stresses

"25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."(Acts 10:25-28 KJV)

And as far as others as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

( I do not refer to some who make this a fatalism of sorts verse).
 
Upvote 0