DaDad

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...I find your logic illusive.
Once again, it appears that you find Scripture illusive.

Dan. 9:2 ... I, Daniel, perceived [biyn] in the books ...

Walvoord cites Young regarding the "going forth of the word":
“This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God. Young goes on to point out that the expression the commandment, which he insists is better translated “a word” (Heb. Dābār; cf. 2Ch 30:5) is also found is Daniel 9:23 for a word from God.”[1]
[1] John Wolvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 224​

Perhaps if you found the "going forth of the word" in Scripture, then you might discover which "books" Daniel used to interpret Jeremiah's seventy years.

Please let me know when you find the "going forth of the word".

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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DaDad

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... Daniel 9 uses day-for-year in its 70 weeks (of years) ...
Once again, the evidence does not support your doctrines:

“... as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’”[1]

“...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.”[2]

[1] John Wolvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217
[2] John Wolvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 218

Per the above, the only thing we know for certain is that the seventy periods of time ≠ 490, which you assert.

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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DaDad

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That is an ignorant (not-knowing) statement in regards scripture, for numerous persons in the Bible quoted the Bible in a language which was not the original language given:
...
I'm going to use your approach, and address this only ONE TIME.

John 21:15 When they finished eating, Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love (agape) me more than these?”
Simon replied, “Yes, Lord, you know I love (philo) you.”
Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 Jesus asked a second time, “Simon son of John, do you love (agape) me?”
Simon replied, “Yes, Lord, you know I love (philo) you.”
Jesus said to him, “Take care of my sheep.” 17 He asked a third time, “Simon son of John, do you love (philo) me?”
Peter was sad that Jesus asked him a third time, “Do you love (philo) me?” He replied, “Lord, you know everything; you know I love (philo) you.”
Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

If you like how Jesus and Peter "loved" each other (English translation) then you're all set. There's nothing more to learn or to gain. So we're done!
Thanks,
DaDad
 
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DaDad

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To all,

Many people have "beliefs", which may or may not agree with reality. Consider the simple incongruity of american "slang". If someone offered you a ride in "cool" car, would you grab a hat, coat, scarf, and gloves? So too Scripture has it's own peculiarities. For example, Hebrew has a CONCISE Feminine Gender text, and an INCONCISE Masculine Gender text. Whoda thunk, and who'd believe the significance -- which is much more consequential than whether or not you brought a hat, coat, scarf, and gloves?!?

But some people's agendas override any facts, and so they're free to go their own way.

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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liberty of conscience

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I'm going to use your approach, and address this only ONE TIME.

John 21:15 When they finished eating, Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love (agape) me more than these?”
Simon replied, “Yes, Lord, you know I love (philo) you.”
Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 Jesus asked a second time, “Simon son of John, do you love (agape) me?”
Simon replied, “Yes, Lord, you know I love (philo) you.”
Jesus said to him, “Take care of my sheep.” 17 He asked a third time, “Simon son of John, do you love (philo) me?”
Peter was sad that Jesus asked him a third time, “Do you love (philo) me?” He replied, “Lord, you know everything; you know I love (philo) you.”
Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

If you like how Jesus and Peter "loved" each other (English translation) then you're all set. There's nothing more to learn or to gain. So we're done!
Thanks,
DaDad
You didn't address anything, except your own ego.

I highlighted the important words for you in red, feel free to look that up in Koine Greek (your interlinear, lexicon & concordance, which is not reading MS Koine Greek at all) also.

If you will answer my question please:

Where did Jesus ask anything the "third" time since you are trying to tell me that agape and phileo mean something different (when they don't - did you even take the "test" as asked, I think not)?

Jesus said, "agape" twice and "phileo" once. Be specific please.
 
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liberty of conscience

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... But if you want to know what actually transpired, then you need the original text....

Now, I am going to ask this only once, therefore, in the name of Jesus Christ, Are you personally able to read and translate old manuscript Hebrew, Syriac and Koine Greek? Yes/No.

If "Yes" I am going to test you by posting a picture of an old manuscript in each language, and I expect you to be able to translate them within 2 hours, from the time the images are posted and post those translation below the images.

I didn't think you would answer this. It's all show and nothing to know. My advice is to let go of all that worthless seminary (Jesuit scholarly) stuff and take up the common man's approach:


Mal_2:12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.

1Co_3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Mar_12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
 
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To all,

Many people have "beliefs", which may or may not agree with reality. Consider the simple incongruity of american "slang". If someone offered you a ride in "cool" car, would you grab a hat, coat, scarf, and gloves? So too Scripture has it's own peculiarities. For example, Hebrew has a CONCISE Feminine Gender text, and an INCONCISE Masculine Gender text. Whoda thunk, and who'd believe the significance -- which is much more consequential than whether or not you brought a hat, coat, scarf, and gloves?!?

But some people's agendas override any facts, and so they're free to go their own way.

Thanks,
DaDad
Let me see if I understand your position correctly. You are saying that you (who has not demonstrated their ability through a simple test) are more capable than the following men in translation from Hebrew, Syriac and Koine Greek (and Latin, etc) into English?

The men of the King James translation (cited from bro. Sam Gipps' Seminar Notes, pages 59-69):

A. The first Westminster Company: Genesis - 2nd Kings

1. Lancelot Andrews, 1555 - 1626:
Dr. Lancelot Andrews was Master of Pembroke, 1589; prebendary at St. Paul’s; Dean of Westminster, 1601; Bishop of Chichester, 1605; Bishop of Ely, 1609; member of the Privy Council, 1609 and Bishop of Winchester,1618. Dr. Andrews was also the first person named in the “Order agreed upon for this Translation.”

a. “Once a year, at Easter, he used to pass a month with his parents. During this vacation, he would find a master, from whom he learned some language to which he was a stranger. In this way after a few years, he acquired most of the modern languages of Europe.”29

b. “He was not a man of ‘head knowledge’ only. He was a man of great practical preaching ability and an ardent opponent of Rome. His conspicuous talents soon gained him powerful patrons. Henry, Earl of Huntington, took him into the north of England, where he was the
means of converting many Papists by his preaching and disputations.”30

c. “As a preacher, Bishop Andrews was right famous in his day. He was called the ‘star of preachers.’”31

d. “Many hours he spent each day in private and family devotions; and there were some who used to desire that ‘they might end their days in Bishop Andrews’ chapel.’ He was one in whom was proved the truth of Luther’s saying, that ‘to have prayed well, is to have studied well.’”32

e. “This worthy diocesan was much ‘given to hospitality,’ and especially to literary strangers. So bountiful was his cheer, that it used to be said, ‘My Lord of Winchester keeps Christmas all year ‘round.’”33

f. “But we are chiefly concerned to know what were his qualifications as a translator of the Bible. He ever bore the character of a ‘right godly man,’ and a ‘prodigious student.’ One competent judge speaks of him as ‘that great gulf of learning’! It was also said, that ‘the world wanted learning to know how learned this man was.’ A brave, old chronicler remarks, that such was his skill in all languages, especially the Oriental, that had he been present at the confusion of tongues at Babel, he might have served as the Interpreter-General! In his funeral sermon by Dr. Buckridge, Bishop of Rochester, it is said that Dr. Andrews was conversant with fifteen languages.”34

2. John Overall, 1559 - 1619: Dr. Overall was; Regius Professor of Divinity at Cambridge, 1596; Master of Cathrine Hall, 1598; Dean of St. Paul’s, 1601; Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, 1614; Bishop of Norwich, 1618 and a member of the Court of High Commission.

a. Dr. Overall was present at the hanging of the Jesuit Henry Garnet, mastermind of “the Gunpowder Plot” and tried to lead him to Christ.35 Garnet died unrepentant.

b. Dr. Overall was vital to the translation because of his knowledge of quotations of the early church fathers which helped with the authentication of 1 John 5:7. This verse has a multitude of evidence among church fathers, though its manuscript evidence suffers from the attacks of Alexandria’s philosophers.

3. Hadrian Saravia, 1531 - 1613: Dr. Saravia was; professor of Divinity at Leyden, 1582; prebendary of Glouchester, 1595 and prebendary of Westminster in 1601. Dr. Hadrian Saravia was as evangelistic as he was scholarly.

a. McClure reports: “He was sent by Queen Elizabeth’s council as a sort of missionary to the islands of Guernsey and Jersey, where he was one of the first Protestant ministers; knowing, as he says of himself, in a letter, ‘which were the beginnings, and by what means and occasions the preaching of God’s Word was planted there.’ He labored there in a two-fold capacity, doing the work of an evangelist, and conducting a newly established school, called Elizabeth College.”36

b. In 1611 he published a treatise on Papal primacy against the Jesuit Gretser.

c. He was “educated in all kinds of literature in his younger days, especially several languages.”37

4. Richard Clarke, 15?? - 1634: Dr. Clarke had been fellow of Christ College, Cambridge; and was Vicar of Minster and Monkton, in the Isle of Thanet, at the time of the translation. He was one of the Six Preachers in the Cathedral of Canterbury. A volume of his sermons was published in folio, after his death, in 1637.

5. John Laifield, 15?? - 1617: Dr. John Laifield was; fellow of Trinity. He was the chaplain to the Earl of Cumberland during his voyage to Puerto Rico in 1598 and finally rector of St. Clement Danes’s, London in 1601.

a. Of him it was said: “That being skilled in architecture, his judgment was much relied on for the fabric of the tabernacle and temple.”38

6. Robert Tighe, 15?? - 1620: Dr. Robert Tighe, Archdeacon of Middlesex, and Vicar of All Hallows Barking, was known as “an excellent textuary and profound linguist; and therefore employed in the Translation of the Bible.”39

7. Francis Burleigh, 15?? - 16??: Vicar of Bishop’s Stortford.

8. Geoffry King, 15?? - 16??: Dr. King was fellow of King’s College, Cambridge, and succeeded Mr. Spalding as Regius Professor of Hebrew in that University. Dr. King was an ardent anti-papist.

9. Richard Thompson, 15?? - 1613: He was of Clare Hall, Cambridge.

10. William Bedwell, 1561 - 1632: Dr. William Bedwell was rector of St. Ethelburgh’s, Bishopsgate and later vicar of Tottenham High Cross, near London. Dr. Bedwell was one of the most remarkable scholars on the committee. He was famous as “an eminent Oriental scholar.” His epitaph mentions that he was “for the Eastern tongues, as learned a man as most lived in these modern times.” He was considered the principal Arabic scholar of his time. His intellectual feats were monumental.

a. “He published in quarto an edition of the epistles of St. John in Arabic, with a Latin version, printed at the press of Raphelengius, at Antwerp, in 1612. He also left many Arabic manuscripts to the University of Cambridge, with numerous notes upon them, and a font of types of printing them. His fame for Arabic learning was so great, that when Erpenius, a most renowned Orientalist, resided in England in 1606, he was much indebted to Bedwell for direction in his studies.

To Bedwell, rather than to Erpenius, who commonly enjoys it, belongs the honor of being the first who considerably promoted and revived the study of the Arabic language and literature in Europe. He was also tutor to another Orientalist of renown, Dr. Pococke.”40

b. “Some modern scholars have fancied, that we have an advantage in our times over the translators of King James’ day, by reason of the greater attention which is supposed to be paid at present to what are called the ‘cognate’ and ‘Shemitic’ languages, and especially the Arabic by which much light is thought to be reflected upon Hebrew words and phrases. It is evident, however, that Mr. Bedwell and others, among his fellow-laborers, were thoroughly conversant in this part of the broad field of sacred criticism.”41

c. “Dr. Bedwell also commenced a Persian dictionary, which is among Archbishop Laid’s manuscripts, still preserved in the Bodelian Library at Oxford. In 1615 he published his book, A Discovery of the Impostures of Mahomet and of the Koran. To this was annexed his Arabian Trudgeman.

d. “Dr. Bedwell had a fondness for mathematical studies. He invented a ruler for geometrical purposes, like that we call Gunther’s Scale, which went by the name ‘Bedwell’s Ruler’.

e. “After Bedwell’s death, the voluminous manuscripts of his lexicon were loaned to the University of Cambridge to aid the compilation of Dr. Castell’s colossal work, the Lexicon Heptaglotton.”42
 
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Many people have "beliefs", which may or may not agree with reality. ...

B. The first Cambridge Company: 1st Chronicles - Ecclesiastes

1. Edward Lively, 1545 - 1605: Dr. Lively was Regius Professor of Hebrew at Cambridge, 1575; prebendary at Peterborough, 1602 and rector of Purleigh in 1604.

a. It is said that no man living exceeded his knowledge of the oriental languages. In fact, it was said of him, “one of the best linguists in the world...Much dependence was placed on his surpassing skill in Oriental languages.”43

b. Dr. Lively died in the beginning of May 1605, and it is said that his death was hastened by the great effort he put into the infant translation. In 1588 he published a work entitled, Annotationes in quinque priores ex Minoribus Prophetis, cum Latina eorum interpretatione ad normam Hebraica veritatis; and in 1597, True Chronologie of the Times of the Persian Monarchie, &c.

2. John Richardson, 15?? - 1625: Dr. Richardson was; fellow of Emmanuel College, Cambridge,1585; Regius Professor of Divinity, 1607; Master of Peterhouse, 1609 and then Master of Trinity College.

3. Lawrence Chaderton, 1537 - 1640: Dr. Chaderton was; fellow of Christ’s College, 1568; and afterwards first Master of Emmanuel College from 1584 to 1622.

a. Dr. Chaderton was raised a Roman Catholic and encouraged by his family to become a lawyer. He traveled to London, where he was converted to Christ and joined the Puritan Congregation there.44 He was disinherited due to his conversion to Christ. It is said that,

b. “He made himself familiar with the Latin, Greek, and Hebrew tongues and was thoroughly skilled in them. Moreover he had diligently investigated the numerous writings of the Rabbis, so far as they seemed to promise any aid to the understanding of the Scriptures.”45

c. Like his fellow translators, Dr. Chaderton’s contribution to the cause of Christ was not restricted to the intellectual realm. He was a powerful preacher who lived to the age of one hundred and three. Congregations never tired of hearing the scriptural offerings of this
great soldier. A preaching engagement in his later years was described as follows:

1) “Having addressed his audience for two full hours by the glass, he paused and said, ‘I will no longer trespass on your patience.’ And now comes the marvel; for the whole congregation cried out with one consent, ‘For God’s sake, go on!’ He accordingly proceeded much longer, to their great satisfaction and delight.”46

4. Francis Dillingham, 15?? - 16??: Dr. Dillingham was fellow of Christ College; parson of Dean and also of Wilden in Bedfordshire and author of several theological treatises. Dr. Dillingham was so studied in the original languages that he participated in public debate in Greek.47

a. “He collected out of Cardinal Bellarmine’s writings, all the concessions made by the acute author in favor of Protestantism. He published a Manual of Christian Faith, taken from the Fathers, and a variety of treatises on different points belonging to the Romish controversy.”48

5. Thomas Harrison, 1555 - 1631: Dr. Harrison was the Vice-Master of Trinity College. He was a fervent Puritan. Dr. Harrison, it is recorded, was chosen to assist the King James translation due to his knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. In fact, his ability served him well in his duties as Vice-Master of Trinity College in Cambridge.

a. “On account of his exquisite skill in the Hebrew and Greek idioms, he was one of the chief examiners in the University of those who sought to be public professors of these languages.”49

6. Roger Andrews, 15?? - 16??: Dr. Andrews was the brother of Bishop Lancelot Andrews. He was fellow of Pembroke Hall; prebendary, archdeacon and chancellor of Chichester and Southwell, 1606-07; prebendary of Ely and afterwards Doctor of Divinity, and then Master of Jesus College, 1618.

7. Robert Spalding, 15?? - 16??: Dr. Spaulding was fellow of St. John’s College and Regius Professor of Hebrew, in Cambridge, 1605.

8. Andrew Byng, 1574 - 1652: Dr. Byng was fellow of Peterhouse and then Regius Professor of Hebrew, in Cambridge in 1608, after Dr. Spalding. He was also Archdeacon of Norwich.

C. The first Oxford Company: Isaiah - Malachi

1. John Harding, 15?? - 16??: John Harding was the Regius Professor of Hebrew in 1591 and President of Magdalen College; and also Rector of Halsey in Oxfordshire. It was said of him, “At the time of his appointment to aid in the translation of the Bible, he had been Royal Professor of Hebrew in the University for thirteen years. His occupancy of that chair, at a time when the study of sacred literature was pursued by thousands with a zeal amounting to a possession, is a fair intimation that Dr. Harding was the manfor the post he occupied.”50

2. John Reynolds (Rainolds), 1549 - 1607: Dr. John Reynolds was fellow of Corpus Christi College, 1566 and later became President of Corpus Christi in 1598; Dean of Lincoln, 1593. He was primarily responsible, in the Conference at Hampton Court, for moving the King for a new Translation. He died May 21, 1607 before the work was completed.

a. Dr. Reynolds had been raised a Roman Catholic. As Chaderton, he too trusted Christ and became a Puritan.

b. “Determined to explore the whole field and make himself master of the subject, he devoted himself to the study of the Scriptures in the original tongues, and read all the Greek and Latin fathers, and all the ancient records of the Church.”51

c. “About the year 1578, John Hart, a popish zealot, challenged all the learned men in the nation to a public debate. At the solicitation of one of Queen Elizabeth’s privy counselors, Mr. Reynolds encountered him. After several combats, the Romish champion owned himself driven from the field.”

d. “At that time, the celebrated Cardinal Bellarmine, the Goliath of the Philistines at Rome, was professor of theology in the English Seminary at that city. As fast as he delivered his popish doctrine, it was taken down in writing, and regularly sent to Dr. Reynolds; who from time to time, publicly confuted it at Oxford. Thus Bellarmine’s books were answered, even before they were printed.”52

e. “The papists started a report, that their famous opposer had recanted his Protestant sentiments. He was much grieved at hearing of the rumor; but too feeble to speak, set his name to the following declaration: ‘These are to testify to all the world, that I die in the possession of that faith which I have taught all my life, both in my preachings and in my writings, with an assured hope of my salvation, only by the merits of Christ my Savior.’”53

3. Thomas Holland, 1539 - 1612: Dr. Holland was then fellow of Balliol College, Oxford; chaplain to the Earl of Leichester in the Netherlands in 1585; Regius Professor of Divinity in Oxford, 1589 and afterwards Rector of Exeter College, 1592. It was said of him that he was, “another Apollos, mighty in the Scriptures.”

Dr. Holland was a fiery Puritan and dedicated anti-Catholic who ended his sermons with the words, “I commend you to the love of God and to the hatred of all popery and superstition.”

4. Richard Kilby, 1560 - 1620: Dr. Richard Kilby became the Rector of Lincoln College in 1590. He was Regius Professor of Divinity, 1610.

a. Dr. Kilby published commentaries on Exodus, chiefly formed from the monuments of the rabbis and Hebrew interpreters.

b. This incident, which occurred shortly after the Authorized Version had been published shows the dangers of changing even one word of God’s Book.

1) “I must here stop my reader, and tell him that this Dr. Kilby was a man so great in learning and wisdom, and so excellent a critic in the Hebrew tongue, that he was made professor of
it in this University; and as also so perfect a Grecian, that he was by King James appointed to be one of the translators of the Bible, and that this Doctor and Mr. Sanderson had frequent
discourses, and loved as father and son. The Doctor was to ride a journey into Derbyshire, and took Mr. Sanderson to bear him company; and they resting on a Sunday with the Doctor’s
friend, and going together to that parish church where they were, found the young preacher to have no more discretion than to waste a great part of the hour allotted for his sermon in exceptions against the late translation of several words, (not expecting such a hearer as Dr. Kilby) and showed three reasons why a particular word should have been otherwise translated. When evening prayer was ended, the preacher was invited to the Doctor’s friend’s house, where after some other confidence, the Doctor told him, he might have preached more useful doctrine, and not filled his auditor’s ears with needless exceptions against the translation; and for that word for which he offered to that poor congregation three reasons why it ought to have been translated as he and others had considered all of them, and found thirteen more considerable reasons why it was translated as now printed.”54


5. Miles Smith, 1554 - 1624: At the time of the translation Dr. Smith was a Canon of Hereford, afterwards Bishop of Gloucester in 1612. Dr. Smith had a great wealth of knowledge concerning the Greek and Latin fathers. He was also expert in Chaldean, Syriac, and Arabic that he could carry on conversations in these difficult languages. It was also said, “Hebrew he had at his finger’s end.”55 He read every book in his own library. Dr. Miles Smith wrote the preface to the King James Bible.

6. Richard Brett, 1567 - 1645: Dr. Brett was fellow of Lincoln College and Rector of Quainton, in Buckinghamshire in 1595. He was a noted scholar of Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Aramaic, Chaldean, Arabic and Ethiopian.

7. Richard Fairclough (Fareclowe), 1578 - 1645: Mr. Fairclough, was of New College; fellow of Corpus Christi, 1602; vicar of Lambeth, All Hallows, Bread Street and Acton.
 
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Many people have "beliefs", which may or may not agree with reality. ...

D. The second Westminster Company: Romans - Jude

1. William Barlow, 15?? - 1613: Dr. Barlow was prebendary of Westminster, 1603 and Dean of Chester at the beginning of the translation; then he later became Bishop of Rochester in 1605 and lastly Bishop of Lincoln in 1608. He was one of the learned Divines selected for the conference at Hampton Court. He is responsible for recording all that transpired during that conference, and for observations connected with it.

2. Ralph Hutchinson (Hutcheson), 1553 - 1606: Dr. Hutchinson was president of St. John’s College, Oxford, 1590.

3. John Spencer, 1559 - 1614: Dr. Spencer was vicar of Alveley, 1589; vicar of Broxborn, 1592; vicar of St. Sepulchre’s, 1599; president of Corpus Christi College, 1607 and finally prebendary of St. Paul’s in 1612.

4. Roger Fenton, 1567 - 1617: Dr. Fenton was fellow of Pembroke Hall, Cambridge; vicar of Chigwell, 1606; prebendary of St. Paul’s, 1609 and finally vicar of St. Stephen’s Walbrook.

5. Michael Rabbett, 15?? -16??: Dr. Rabbett was the Rector of St. Vedast, Forest Lane, London.

6. Thomas Sanderson, 15?? - 16??: It is thought that this is the Sanderson who was Acrhdeacon of Rochester in 1606.

7. William Dakins, 1567 - 1606: William Dakins was vicar of Trumpington, 1603 and then appointed Professor of Divinity in Gresham College in 1604. He was employed in this work for his great knowledge of the original languages.

E. The second Oxford Company: The Gospels, Acts and Revelation

1. Thomas Ravis, 1560 - 1609: Dr. Ravis was rector of All Hallows, Barking, 1591; canon of Westminster, 1592; Dean of Christ Church, 1596; Bishop of Gloucester, 1605 and lastly bishop of London in 1607. He was famous for his “eminent learning, gravity, and prudence.”

2. George Abbot, 1562 - 1633: Dr. Abbot was Master of University College, Oxford, 1597; Dean of Winchester, 1600; Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, 1609 and Archbishop of Canterbury in 1612.

3. Richard Eedes, 1555 - 1604: Dr. Eedes was prebendary of Salisbury, 1584; prebendary of Hereford, 1590; queen’s chaplain and Dean of Worcester in 1596. He was greatly admired for his preaching, as well as his discourse which was said to be both excellent and polite. He died in
November 1604, soon after the translation was begun.

4. Giles Tomson, 1553 - 1612: Dr. Tomson was fellow of All Souls; queen’s chaplain; rector of Pembroke, Herefordshire; Dean of Windsor, 1602 and Bishop of Gloucester in 1611. Dr. Tomson died in 1612, “to the great grief of all that knew the piety and learning of the man; after he had taken a great deal of pains, at the command of King James, in translating the four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, and Apocalypse.” He was loved for being “brief, learned and discreet.”

5. Henry Saville, 1549 - 1622: Dr. Saville was fellow of Merton, 1565; was Warden of Merton, 1585; and Provost of Eton in 1596. He was knighted in 1604. He founded the Saville professorships of geometry and astronomy at Oxford.

a. Dr. Saville was known for his Greek and mathematical learning. He was so well known for his education, skill with languages, and knowledge of the Word, that he became Greek and mathematical tutor to Queen Elizabeth during the reign of her father Henry VIII.56

b.“He is chiefly known, however, by being the first to edit the complete works of John Chrysostom, the most famous of the Greek Fathers.”57

6. John Perin (Perne), 15?? - 1615: Fellow of St. John’s College, 1575; Regius Professor of Greek. He resigned this post to work on the Bible translation. Later vicar of Wafting in Sussex and afterwards Canon of Christ Church.

7. Ralph Ravens, 15?? - 1615: Dr. Ravens was vicar of Easton Magna in Essex. Also, there was a person of this name of Queen’s College, M.A. in 1595, and Sub-Dean of Wells in 1607.

8. John Harmar, 15?? - 1613: Dr. Harmar was fellow of New College, 1574; Regius Professor of Greek, 1585 and Warden of Winchester College in 1596. He was “a most noted Latinist, Grecian, and divine.” He translated Beza’s Sermons into English.

9. Leonard Hutten, 1557 - 1632: Dr. Hutten was vicar of Floore, 1601 and prebendary of St. Paul’s, 1609.

10. John Aglionby, 1566 - 1609: Royal chaplain, Principal of St. Edmund Hall, Oxford. It is believed Dr. Aglionby was appointed to the translation committee to replace Dr. Eedes who died soon after the work began in 1604.

11. James Mountague (Montagu), 1568 - 1618: Dr. Mountague was first Master of Puritan Sydney Sussex College, Cambridge, 1595; Dean of Lichfield, 1603; Dean of Worchester, 1604; Bishop of Bath and Wells, 1608; Bishop of Winchester, 1616; edited and translated the works of King James I, 1616. There is some question as to Mountague’s participation.

F. The second Cambridge Company: The Apocrypha

1. John Duport, 15?? - 1617: John Duport was rector of Fulham, 1583; precentor of St. Paul’s, 1585; Master of Jesus College, 1590 and prebendary of Ely in 1609.

2. William Branthwaite, 15?? - 1620: Dr. Branthwaite was founding fellow of Emmanuel College, 1584 and Master of Gonvil and Caius College, Cambridge, 1607. An anti-papist, Branthwaite was added to the Translation Committee to replace a suspected Roman Catholic spy who was dismissed.

3. Jeremiah Radcliffe, 15?? - 1612: Jeremiah Radcliffe was fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge; vicar of Evesham, 1588; rector of Orwell, 1590 and Vice-Master of Trinity College in 1597.

4. Samuel Ward, 15?? - 1643: Samuel Ward, another Puritan, was a friend and correspondent of Archbishop Usher. He was fellow of Emmanuel, 1595; Master of Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge, 1610; king’s chaplain, 1611; Archdeacon of Taunton, 1615; prebendary of Wells, 1615; prebendary of York, 1618 and Lady Margaret’s Professor of Divinity, in Cambridge in 1623. He is famous for his diversified learning, yet more especially pertaining to biblical and oriental criticism.

5. Andrew Downes, 1549 - 1628: Dr. Downes was Regius Professor of Greek, Cambridge, 1585 and was sent from that University, with Bois, who had been his scholar, to join a new selection of revisors from the whole number of the Translators. He and Bois worked together with Sir Henry Saville on publishing the works of Chrysostom.

6. John Bois, 1561 - 1644: Dr. Bois was the Greek lecturer at Cambridge, 1584 and prebendary of Ely in 1615. He was considered one of the finest Greek scholars in the kingdom; and was extremely well acquainted with the Hebrew language, of which he had acquired the knowledge at a very early age. Young John had read completely through the Bible by the age of 5 and at 6 years old was writing freely in Hebrew. He was the author of a work, much esteemed by scholars, entitled Veteris Interpretis cum Beza aliisque recentioribus Collatio in Quatuor Evangeliis, it Apostolorum Actis, &c, published after his death, in 1655. These were his Latin notes on the four Gospels and Acts. He wrote notes also upon Chrysostom, which Sir Henry Saville much esteemed, and used, in his edition of the works of that Father. Bois and his critical labors are often mentioned in Archbishop Usher’s Letters. He was said to be second to none in his knowledge of the Greek language.

7. Robert Ward, 15?? - 16??: He was fellow of King’s College, Cambridge; prebendary of Chichester, and Rector of Bishop’s Waltham in Hampshire.

....

You have more understanding than these all, including all the populace of Christianity, that was also involved in this endeavor in the matter of translation? (see rules laid down by King James).

Rules ...

11. When any Place of special Obscurity is doubted of, Letters to be directed by Authority, to send to any Learned Man in the Land, for his Judgement of such a Place.

12. Letters to be sent from every Bishop to the rest of his Clergy, admonishing them of this Translation in hand; and to move and charge as many skilful in the Tongues; and having taken pains in that kind, to send his particular Observations to the Company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford.
 
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BobRyan

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To all,

Many people have "beliefs", which may or may not agree with reality. Consider the simple incongruity of american "slang". If someone offered you a ride in "cool" car, would you grab a hat, coat, scarf, and gloves? So too Scripture has it's own peculiarities. For example, Hebrew has a CONCISE Feminine Gender text, and an INCONCISE Masculine Gender text.

Hebrew is also a "high context" language so that "Son of Man" in Daniel 7 is Christ but in Ezek it is the prophet himself in Ezek 2
Ezekiel 2:1 He said to me, “Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.”
 
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Major1

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No, incorrect. The "prince that shall come", was Jesus (the word is only used for Jesus in Daniel).

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

It isn't "the prince that shall come" that destroy's the "city", but rather it was "the people of" said "prince" that destroyed the city:

"... the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary ..."

The Jews themselves by their rejection of Jesus, brought destruction upon their own city (which came in the form of the Roman armies, the "eagles" that surrounded it). God withdrew:

Mat_23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luk_13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luk_21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

It was no longer His Father's house (John 2:16).

I do not agree my friend.

The terminus of the 1st 69 weeks was unto the MESSIAH THE PRINCE in verse 25., indicating some point in His life----NOT His birth because of the chronology involved.

Bible scholars see this as a referrance to His baptism/earthly ministry/or His entry into Jerusalem as King.

Sometime AFTER the fulfillment of the 483 year period SHALL MESSIAH BE CUT OFF and "have nothing". The crucifixion of Christ coincides perfectly with this prophesy as nearly ALL Bible scholars agree...…...except of course the SDA.

The next event described is the destruction of THE CITY of Jerusalem and the SANCTUARY. That event happened in 70 A.D. as recorded by many historians.

It was carried out by Vespasian, his son Titus and the Roman army.

"THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME" refers to the Romans since this prince is to be distinguished from MESSIAH THE PRINCE of verse #25.

Therefore my friend, by correct exegesis and contextual understanding we can see that THE prince of verse #26 is the ANTICHRIST, and his people are the Roman people.

It is vital to note that these events happened after the 1st 69 weeks of YEARS but still before the FINAL WEEK (7 Years) spoken of by Daniel in verse #27.

THAT final week (7 Years) is still future to us today and awaits the fulfillment of the events of verse 27.

Then when we read verse 27 and see the words...……."AND HE", we can correctly understand that HE refers back to THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME of verse #25.

It predicts the coming of the Roman A/C during the 7 Year Tribulation period after the Rapture of the church.

"HE" the A/C will "CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK (7 Years).
 
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Major1

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Here is an additional prophetic time listing, with a broader scope:

457 BC [begins the 2,300, and thus the portion of it, the 70 weeks [490] of KJB Daniel 9:24]
AD 26 [begins John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus' first Advent]
AD 27 [ends the 7 + 62 [69] weeks of KJB Daniel 9:25-26; Mark 1:15, and begins the final week, KJB Daniel 9:27]
AD 31 [ends the midst of [3 ½] the final week of the 70 [490] of KJB Daniel 9:24-27, begins the 5 anti-typical months of KJB Revelation 9:5,6,10 from Pentecost, until 1833/34 with warning of Judgment to come by William Miller in AD 1833/34]
AD 34 [ends the final week of the 70 [490] of KJB Daniel 9:24-27]
AD 70 [end of the “generation”, within 40 years of Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome under Titus; KJB Matthew 23:36, 24:2; Mark 13:2; Luke 19:44, 21:6]
AD 303 [begins the 10 years tribulation of KJB Revelation 2:10]
AD 313 [ends the 10 years tribulation of KJB Revelation 2:10]
AD 508 [begins the 1,290 of KJB Daniel 12:11 and 1,335 of KJB Daniel 12:12]
AD 538 [begins the 1,260, forty and two months, time, times and dividing of time, of KJB Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5; Luke 21:24]
AD 1755 [November 1, earthquake that shook the world; KJB Revelation 6:12; Luke 21:25, time of the 6th Seal]
AD 1776 [Beast out of the earth with two horns like a Lamb [Church without a pope, and State without a King, Protestantism, Republicanism], begins to arise with the aide of France, to become the USA, KJB Revelation 13:11]
AD 1780 [May 19, dark day, sun and moon, KJB Revelation 6:12; Luke 21:25, time of the 6th Seal]
AD 1793 [begins the 3 ½ years of KJB Revelation 11:9,11, in France]
AD 1797 [ends the 3 ½ years of KJB Revelation 11:9,11, in France, see also Revelation 11:13, in the political upheaval of France, 1/10 of the 10 horns of KJB Daniel 7:7]
AD 1798 [ends the 1,290 and 1,260, ending in the beginning of the time of the end [AD 1798 – 1844], and France removed from helping USA]
AD 1833 [November 13th, stars falling; KJB Luke 21:25; Revelation 6:13, time of the 6th Seal]
AD 1833/4 [ends the 5th Trumpet of KJB Revelation 9:5,6,10 in the Feast of Trumpets, 5 anti-typical months from Pentecost in AD 31.]
AD 1842-1844 [First and Second Angels messages go forward, KJB Revelation 14:6-8 and Midnight Cry of Matthew 25:6, in first phase]
AD 1844 [ends the 1,335 and 2,300, ending in the ending of the time of the end [AD 1798 – 1844], the “daily” becomes the “yearly”, and 10 years after Feast of Trumpets [1833/34] is now October 22 1844, the Day of Atonement begins; Leviticus 16 & 23; Revelation 14:7, thus given also as the hour [of His judgment, KJB Revelation 14:6-7], day [10th day, Day of Atonement; KJB Leviticus 23:26-32], month [7th month, Ethanim; KJB Leviticus 23:27; 1 Kings 8:2], year [KJB Daniel 8:14, 12:12] in Revelation 9's the sixth Trumpet introduction [KJB Revelation 9:13-15]]
AD 1844 [Third Angels Message goes forward; KJB Revelation 14:9-12]
AD 1880's-1888 [first siege, as in the days of Cestius of Rome, Sunday laws begin to be passed and persecution was happening, Blair Bill almost goes through, but is suddenly halted]
AD 1989 [Holy Alliance - USA [2nd Beast of KJB Revelation 13] teams with Vatican/Papacy [First Beast of KJB Revelation 13] to help bring down USSR]
AD 1990 [the USA, the sole remaining Super-power, “all the power”, “power over” the nations, as per KJB Revelation 13:2,3,7,12,16]
AD 1995 [Christian coalition seeking to gain Roman support]
AD 1998
AD 1999
[Catholics/Lutherans reach agreement]
AD 2001 [tower fell 9/11, just as type foretold, KJB Luke 13:4]
AD 2004 [3rd Event; Sunday being promoted more and more; Roman Catholicism joins Christian Coalition]
AD 2005 [4th Event; Leading Protestant Churches unite on common doctrines; KJB Revelation 13:11,12,14 “they should make an image to the beast” - Catholic Universal, One World Church; see KJB Revelation 13:7,8, “war” [state], “worship” [church]]
AD 2008 [5th Event; National/International money crisis truly begins, KJB Luke 12:25, “with perplexity”, which will become worldwide and in the church, KJB Genesis 47:13,15; effecting a new economic system to come, and buying and selling effected eventually, KJB Revelation 13:7; Daniel 11:43]
AD 2010 [further events between king North, and South]
AD 2011 [further events between king North, and South]
AD 2013 [July 4th; Francis I [the Jesuit], Benedict XVI [Master of the Office of the Inquisition] invoke the weapon of war, just as type foretold, Caiaphas and Annas, KJB Luke 3:2, about to finish the King of the South off [6th Head, the Beast from the bottomless pit of KJB Revelation 11], Secular Humanism/Atheism as ruling power, and the false reliance of Israel, to turn over into the Healing of the deadly wound of the First Beast of Revelation 13:1, when persecution arises in the USA]
AD 2015 [Sept. 22-27th, Francis I [the Jesuit] speaks at Washington D.C., which sits between Mary-land and Virgin-ia]
AD 2016-2017 [Donald Trump is elected President of the USA, and is "prayed" over by the Evangelical apostasy, and begins to give power back to churches to speak about political matters in pulpit; repeals the Johnson Amendment, church and state re-uniting more closely]

Revelation 17, 7 heads and an 8th:

1. [Babylon] - Lion 1 Head

2. [Med-Persia] - Bear 1 Head

3. [Greece] - He-Goat 1 Head

4. [Pagan Rome] - Terrible/Dreadful Beast 1 Head

5. [Papal Rome] - Man of Sin (a creature, a man without indwelling of Christ, is as a beast, see Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel 4) - 1 Head

five are fallen

6. [Atheism/Secular Humanism] - Beast from Bottomless Pit 1 Head

one is after the wilderness period began for Papal Head, Beast of Rev 11. This gave the deadly wound to the 5th Head,and helped the 7th come to power (France, etc) ...

7. USA/Apostate Protestantism - Beast from the Earth 1 head

other is not yet come, continue short space, "2nd Beast" of Rev 13; 10 horns, all the kings of the earth that take counsel against God (world leaders of the U.N., which sit upon the 7th Head)

8. Combined Mystery Babylon (Religious humanism), triumvirate, final [8th] re-vived Head of Papal Power

“As we approach the last crisis, it is of vital moment that harmony and unity exist among the Lord’s instrumentalities. The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one headthe papal power—the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate. While he seeks to unite his agents in warring against the truth he will work to divide and scatter its advocates. Jealousy, evil surmising, evilspeaking, are instigated by him to produce discord and dissension. The members of Christ’s church have the power to thwart the purpose of the adversary of souls. At such a time as this let them not be found at variance with one another or with any of the Lord’s workers. Amidst the general discord let there be one place where harmony and unity exist because the Bible is made the guide of life. Let the people of God feel that a responsibility rests upon them to build up His instrumentalities. …” - Testimonies for the Church Volume 7, p. 182.2 (1) see also The Publishing Ministry, p. 114.4 (1) see also Testimony Treasures Volume 3, p. 171.2 (1) see also Maranatha, p. 187.2 (1) see also Last Day Events, p. 131.5 (1)

Here is another:

“Strange, eventful history is being recorded in the books of heaven. Everything in our world is in agitation. Events are changing to bring about the day of God, which hasteth greatly. The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Under one head, the papal power, it has united to oppose God in the person of His faithful witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate. All jealousy, evil surmising, and evil speaking are of him, and tend to produce discord and disunion. Then shall God’s people be at variance with one another? Shall they not be cemented together by the Holy Spirit, each worker filled with love and sympathy for his fellow-worker, each filling his appointment with faithful effort, seeking earnestly to prepare the way of the Lord? In the general discord there should be one place where harmony and unity should exist because the Bible is the guide. When the principles of God’s Word are followed, it becomes a bright light shining in a dark place. All who build on this Rock can be sure that their house will stand amid the tempest.” - ST February 7, 1900, par. 3

:ebil::ebil::ebil::ebil::ebil::ebil::ebil::ebil::ebil::ebil:

LOL!

Just more SDA teaching and non Biblical propaganda.
 
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Major1

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Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

[1] great earthquake

[2] sun became black as sackcloth of hair

[3] and the moon became as blood


Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

[4] the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when shaken of a mighty wind

(we are here, and soon to come ...)

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

[5] the atmosphere (first heaven) will split in two ...

[6] every mountain and island will be moved (great earthquake that never was before)

Do you agree with the order of events as listed by this passage in Revelation?

Here is a short listing of events:

... Afterwards, then follows several signs in the earth/heaven itself, namely, "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven ...", which is paralleled in several other verses, namely:

[1,290, AD 508 unto AD 1798]
Daniel 12:11 KJB - "... a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

[1,335, AD 508 unto AD 1843/44]
Daniel 12:12 KJB - "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
Revelation 14:13 KJB - "... Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth ..."

[70 Weeks, 62 + 7 + 1 [1/2 + 1/2], 457 BC unto AD 27 [Baptism], unto AD 31 [Cross], unto AD 34 [Stephen], then the remaining 1810, unto AD 1843/44]
Daniel 9:24-27 KJB - Whole ...

[5 Anti-typical feast Months, AD 31-100, unto AD 1833/34, Day of Trumpets, from Pentecost; Leviticus 23; Woe 1, Woe 2 and Woe 3, encompassing the whole 'Exodus', 'Wilderness' unto 'Canaan']
Revelation 9:5 KJB - "... five months ..."
Revelation 9:6 KJB - "... those days ..."
Revelation 9:10 KJB - "... five months ..."

[1,260, 42 months, time, times and 1/2 time; AD 538 unto AD 1798]
Daniel 7:25 KJB - "... a time and times and the dividing of time." ["wear out the saints"]
Daniel 12:7 KJB - "... a time, times, and a half ..." ["scatter the power of the holy people"]
Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... the tribulation of those days ..." [reference to Daniel]
Mark 13:24 KJB - "...that tribulation ..." [reference to Daniel]
Luke 21:24 KJB - "... the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Revelation 6:11 KJB - "... killed as they were ..." [two groups, past and future, see Rev. 20:4 KJB]
Revelation 11:2 KJB - "... given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
Revelation 11:3 KJB - "... a thousand two hundred and threscroe days ..."
Revelation 12:6 KJB - "... a thousand two hundred and threescore days."
Revelation 12:14 KJB - "... a time, and times, and a half a time ..." ["persecuted", see vs 13]
Revelation 13:5 KJB - " ... forty and two months." ["power" was given to "him" [1st [sea] Beast, Rev. 13]]

[Great Lisbon Earthquake, AD 1755, November 1]

Revelation 6:12 KJB - "... a great earthquake ..."

[Great Dark Day, AD 1780, May 19 - Sun]
Joel 2:10 KJB - "... the sun ... shall be dark ..."
Joel 2:31 KJB - "The sun shall be turned into darkness ..."
Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... shall the sun be darkened ..."
Mark 13:24 KJB - "... the sun shall be darkened ..."
Luke 21:25 KJB - "And there shall be signs in the sun ..."
Acts 2:20 KJB - "The sun shall be turned into darkness ..."
Revelation 6:12 KJB - "... and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair ..."

[Great Dark Day, AD 1780, May 19 - Moon]
Joel 2:10 KJB - "... and the moon shall be dark ..."
Joel 2:31 KJB - "... and the moon into blood ..." [before the great and terrible day of the LORD come]
Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... and the moon shall not give her light ..."
Mark 13:24 KJB - "... and the moon shall not give her light,"
Luke 21:25 KJB - "... and in the moon ..."
Acts 2:20 KJB - "... and the moon into blood ..." [before that great and notable day of the Lord come]]
Revelation 6:12 KJB - "... and the moon became as blood;"

[Reign of Terror, French Revolution, AD 1793 unto AD 1797/8; 'spiritually Egypt and Sodom']
Revelation 11:9 KJB - "... three days and an half ..."
Revelation 11:11 KJB - "... after three days and a half ..."

[Great Leonid Meteor Shower, AD 1833, November 13]
Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... and the stars shall fall from heaven ..."
Mark 13:25 KJB - "And the stars of heaven shall fall ..."
Luke 21:25 KJB - "... and in the stars ..."
Revelation 6:13 KJB - "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth ..."

[Day of Atonement, AD 1844, October 22; 2,300 which began in 457 BC, Ezra 7, Daniel 9, etc ending in AD 1843/44]
Daniel 8:14 KJB - "... Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
Revelation 9:15 KJB - "... prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year ..." [Rev. 14:6-7; Leviticus 23:26-32; 1 Kings 8:2; Daniel 8:13,14,26, etc]
Revelation 10:6 KJB - "... that there should be time no longer ..." [no more prophetic time as a test]

Luke 21:25 KJB - "... and upon earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;"

Isaiah 13:7 KJB - "Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:"
Isaiah 13:8 KJB - "And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrow shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth ..."
Luke 21:26 KJB - "Men's heart's failing them from fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth ..."

Isaiah 13:10 KJB - "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine."
Joel 2:10 KJB - "... and the stars shall withdraw their shining:"
Joel 3:15 KJB - "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining."

[The Close of probation for mankind in receiving and assimilating the Everlasting Gospel]

Daniel 12:1 KJB -"And at that time shall Michael stand up ... there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time ..."
Luke 13:25 KJB - "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without ..."
Revelation 10:7 KJB - "In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished ..."
Revelation 22:11 KJB - "He that is unjust, let him be unjest still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

[7 Last plagues, Wrath of God poured out]
Job 14:13 KJB - "... thy wrath ..."
Revelation 11:18 KJB - "... and thy wrath is come ..." [Revelation 16:2-17 KJB]

[Final Events]

Jeremiah 25:30 KJB - "... The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth."
Joel 2:11 KJB - "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army ..."
Joel 3:16 KJB - "The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, utter his voice from Jerusalem ..." [New Jerusalem in Heaven]

Joel 3:16 KJB - "... and the heavens and the earth shall shake ..."
Mark 13:25 KJB - "... and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."
Luke 21:26 KJB - "... for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."
Hebrews 12:26 KJB - "... I shake not the earth only, but also heaven:"

1 Kings 18:44 KJB - "... ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand ..."
Matthew 24:30 KJB - "And then shall the appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven ..."

Revelation 6:14 KJB - "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together ..."

Revelation 16:18 KJB - "... a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

Revelation 6:14 KJB - "... and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
Revelation 16:20 KJB - "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Matthew 24:30 KJB - "... and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Mark 13:26 KJB - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."
Luke 21:27 KJB - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and glory."
Revelation 6:15 KJB - "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

My dear friend. It grieves me deeply to see someone of such great ability and faith be so convoluted and mislead by the SDA's false teaching.

God bless you my friend!! I am sincere as I can possibly be for you and I will pray for your understanding and heart to be opened.

I would not know where to begin to respond to another lengthy post of yours but I will say that you have confused HISTORY with PROPHESY and allowed Mrs's Whites utterances.

Basically, followers of Ellen G. White face a very real question concerning the sufficiency of Scripture. Is the Bible SUFFICIEN for our faith and practice, or do we need further revelation in the form of 2,000 visions from a self-proclaimed prophetess?

Seventh-Day Adventists’ official stance is that “the Holy Scriptures are the supreme, authoritative, and the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the definitive revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history”
(Holy Scriptures :: The Official Site of the Seventh-day Adventist world church, accessed June 2, 2016).

Yet, at the same time, members of the Seventh-Day Adventists accept the works of Ellen G. White as authoritative and binding. From the same official website:.....
“Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church”
(The Gift of Prophecy :: The Official Site of the Seventh-day Adventist world church, accessed June 2, 2016).

What is “prophetic authority” if not the right to mandate belief based on divine words given through a human? How do the utterances of Ellen G. White differ from the Bible’s declarations of truth?
 
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Major1

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Hebrew is also a "high context" language so that "Son of Man" in Daniel 7 is Christ but in Ezek it is the prophet himself in Ezek 2
Ezekiel 2:1 He said to me, “Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.”

The word you are not understanding is CONTEXT!

Without understanding CONTEXT we (YOU) can make any Scripture say what we WANT it to say and that is where all the confusion comes from in the SDA theology/.
 
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D. The second Westminster Company: Romans - Jude

1. William Barlow, 15?? - 1613: Dr. Barlow was prebendary of Westminster, 1603 and Dean of Chester at the beginning of the translation; then he later became Bishop of Rochester in 1605 and lastly Bishop of Lincoln in 1608. He was one of the learned Divines selected for the conference at Hampton Court. He is responsible for recording all that transpired during that conference, and for observations connected with it.

2. Ralph Hutchinson (Hutcheson), 1553 - 1606: Dr. Hutchinson was president of St. John’s College, Oxford, 1590.

3. John Spencer, 1559 - 1614: Dr. Spencer was vicar of Alveley, 1589; vicar of Broxborn, 1592; vicar of St. Sepulchre’s, 1599; president of Corpus Christi College, 1607 and finally prebendary of St. Paul’s in 1612.

4. Roger Fenton, 1567 - 1617: Dr. Fenton was fellow of Pembroke Hall, Cambridge; vicar of Chigwell, 1606; prebendary of St. Paul’s, 1609 and finally vicar of St. Stephen’s Walbrook.

5. Michael Rabbett, 15?? -16??: Dr. Rabbett was the Rector of St. Vedast, Forest Lane, London.

6. Thomas Sanderson, 15?? - 16??: It is thought that this is the Sanderson who was Acrhdeacon of Rochester in 1606.

7. William Dakins, 1567 - 1606: William Dakins was vicar of Trumpington, 1603 and then appointed Professor of Divinity in Gresham College in 1604. He was employed in this work for his great knowledge of the original languages.

E. The second Oxford Company: The Gospels, Acts and Revelation

1. Thomas Ravis, 1560 - 1609: Dr. Ravis was rector of All Hallows, Barking, 1591; canon of Westminster, 1592; Dean of Christ Church, 1596; Bishop of Gloucester, 1605 and lastly bishop of London in 1607. He was famous for his “eminent learning, gravity, and prudence.”

2. George Abbot, 1562 - 1633: Dr. Abbot was Master of University College, Oxford, 1597; Dean of Winchester, 1600; Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, 1609 and Archbishop of Canterbury in 1612.

3. Richard Eedes, 1555 - 1604: Dr. Eedes was prebendary of Salisbury, 1584; prebendary of Hereford, 1590; queen’s chaplain and Dean of Worcester in 1596. He was greatly admired for his preaching, as well as his discourse which was said to be both excellent and polite. He died in
November 1604, soon after the translation was begun.

4. Giles Tomson, 1553 - 1612: Dr. Tomson was fellow of All Souls; queen’s chaplain; rector of Pembroke, Herefordshire; Dean of Windsor, 1602 and Bishop of Gloucester in 1611. Dr. Tomson died in 1612, “to the great grief of all that knew the piety and learning of the man; after he had taken a great deal of pains, at the command of King James, in translating the four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, and Apocalypse.” He was loved for being “brief, learned and discreet.”

5. Henry Saville, 1549 - 1622: Dr. Saville was fellow of Merton, 1565; was Warden of Merton, 1585; and Provost of Eton in 1596. He was knighted in 1604. He founded the Saville professorships of geometry and astronomy at Oxford.

a. Dr. Saville was known for his Greek and mathematical learning. He was so well known for his education, skill with languages, and knowledge of the Word, that he became Greek and mathematical tutor to Queen Elizabeth during the reign of her father Henry VIII.56

b.“He is chiefly known, however, by being the first to edit the complete works of John Chrysostom, the most famous of the Greek Fathers.”57

6. John Perin (Perne), 15?? - 1615: Fellow of St. John’s College, 1575; Regius Professor of Greek. He resigned this post to work on the Bible translation. Later vicar of Wafting in Sussex and afterwards Canon of Christ Church.

7. Ralph Ravens, 15?? - 1615: Dr. Ravens was vicar of Easton Magna in Essex. Also, there was a person of this name of Queen’s College, M.A. in 1595, and Sub-Dean of Wells in 1607.

8. John Harmar, 15?? - 1613: Dr. Harmar was fellow of New College, 1574; Regius Professor of Greek, 1585 and Warden of Winchester College in 1596. He was “a most noted Latinist, Grecian, and divine.” He translated Beza’s Sermons into English.

9. Leonard Hutten, 1557 - 1632: Dr. Hutten was vicar of Floore, 1601 and prebendary of St. Paul’s, 1609.

10. John Aglionby, 1566 - 1609: Royal chaplain, Principal of St. Edmund Hall, Oxford. It is believed Dr. Aglionby was appointed to the translation committee to replace Dr. Eedes who died soon after the work began in 1604.

11. James Mountague (Montagu), 1568 - 1618: Dr. Mountague was first Master of Puritan Sydney Sussex College, Cambridge, 1595; Dean of Lichfield, 1603; Dean of Worchester, 1604; Bishop of Bath and Wells, 1608; Bishop of Winchester, 1616; edited and translated the works of King James I, 1616. There is some question as to Mountague’s participation.

F. The second Cambridge Company: The Apocrypha

1. John Duport, 15?? - 1617: John Duport was rector of Fulham, 1583; precentor of St. Paul’s, 1585; Master of Jesus College, 1590 and prebendary of Ely in 1609.

2. William Branthwaite, 15?? - 1620: Dr. Branthwaite was founding fellow of Emmanuel College, 1584 and Master of Gonvil and Caius College, Cambridge, 1607. An anti-papist, Branthwaite was added to the Translation Committee to replace a suspected Roman Catholic spy who was dismissed.

3. Jeremiah Radcliffe, 15?? - 1612: Jeremiah Radcliffe was fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge; vicar of Evesham, 1588; rector of Orwell, 1590 and Vice-Master of Trinity College in 1597.

4. Samuel Ward, 15?? - 1643: Samuel Ward, another Puritan, was a friend and correspondent of Archbishop Usher. He was fellow of Emmanuel, 1595; Master of Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge, 1610; king’s chaplain, 1611; Archdeacon of Taunton, 1615; prebendary of Wells, 1615; prebendary of York, 1618 and Lady Margaret’s Professor of Divinity, in Cambridge in 1623. He is famous for his diversified learning, yet more especially pertaining to biblical and oriental criticism.

5. Andrew Downes, 1549 - 1628: Dr. Downes was Regius Professor of Greek, Cambridge, 1585 and was sent from that University, with Bois, who had been his scholar, to join a new selection of revisors from the whole number of the Translators. He and Bois worked together with Sir Henry Saville on publishing the works of Chrysostom.

6. John Bois, 1561 - 1644: Dr. Bois was the Greek lecturer at Cambridge, 1584 and prebendary of Ely in 1615. He was considered one of the finest Greek scholars in the kingdom; and was extremely well acquainted with the Hebrew language, of which he had acquired the knowledge at a very early age. Young John had read completely through the Bible by the age of 5 and at 6 years old was writing freely in Hebrew. He was the author of a work, much esteemed by scholars, entitled Veteris Interpretis cum Beza aliisque recentioribus Collatio in Quatuor Evangeliis, it Apostolorum Actis, &c, published after his death, in 1655. These were his Latin notes on the four Gospels and Acts. He wrote notes also upon Chrysostom, which Sir Henry Saville much esteemed, and used, in his edition of the works of that Father. Bois and his critical labors are often mentioned in Archbishop Usher’s Letters. He was said to be second to none in his knowledge of the Greek language.

7. Robert Ward, 15?? - 16??: He was fellow of King’s College, Cambridge; prebendary of Chichester, and Rector of Bishop’s Waltham in Hampshire.

....

You have more understanding than these all, including all the populace of Christianity, that was also involved in this endeavor in the matter of translation? (see rules laid down by King James).

Rules ...

11. When any Place of special Obscurity is doubted of, Letters to be directed by Authority, to send to any Learned Man in the Land, for his Judgement of such a Place.

12. Letters to be sent from every Bishop to the rest of his Clergy, admonishing them of this Translation in hand; and to move and charge as many skilful in the Tongues; and having taken pains in that kind, to send his particular Observations to the Company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford.

John 17:17 ........
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

When a man places more faith in the words of men that in the Word Of God, confusion and distortion will always follow.
Need I say more?
 
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Major1

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I do not mind doing so, but also wanted you to have a quick reference guide to said historical material.

Therefore, shall we begin with the prophecies (Daniel/Revelation), and link them to the history of the Great (Lisbon) Earthquake (Nov. 1 1755) (Revelation 6:12)? If so, we have to begin in Daniel 2, connect to Daniel 7, then to Daniel 8, then to Daniel 9, then to Daniel 10-12, then to Revelation itself.

Do you agree with the basic outline as given here, already on Daniel 2:
The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

If no, please be specific as to which point you disagree with, and allow for further detail as needful.

I do not have the time, or the energy to refute your SDA theology.

I will however take the time to say that NONE of the events you have posted have taken place yet.

There is NO Investigative Judgment in Daniel 7. The SDA theology for this teaches WORS for Salvation.

Any doctrine that denies salvation by grace alone by teaching that eternal life is merited, earned, conditioned, or maintained through human effort, religious ritual, financial donations, obedience to laws/commandments, church membership, and/or moral behavior is totally unbiblical!

The SDA belief that Sunday worship will result in the “Mark of the Beast,” is without any Bible verification.

The world was predicted to end in 1844 with the Second Coming of Christ, by William Miller, a New England Baptist itinerant preacher. That is of course completely false and actually silly that anyone would continue to support such a false teaching.
 
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Major1

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Have some one else read it to you, enlarge the font. Enough excuses. You have read plenty on these forums and spent enough time typing.

I could do that but what would be the point?

False is false whether it is read or it is read to you.
 
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Major1

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Then you agree with my favorite aunt when she used to tease: My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts. -- But you're not teasing.

Perhaps your perspective lacks many of the facts. I'm more than willing to present them for your research and validation, -- or not.

Thanks,
DaDad

I will be your Daisey. Shoot!
 
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If you read the English, or even understand the Koine Greek (which you obviously have not understood, but simply re-gurgitate some scholars nonsense), there is no difference between "agape" or "phileo", in all of scripture:

Jump to Time Index 57:00 Minutes and take the Agape/Phileo Test (and if honest (ie follow the rule given), you'll fail it):


Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

How do you answer the Agape/Phileo test and the evidence as found in John 21:15-17 KJB, in regards "do you love [agape] me" [first time]. do you love [agape] me" [second time], and "do you love [phileo] me" [???, is this the first time, or the third time Jesus asked about love?] Jesus did not say do you love [agape] me three times. Jesus did not say "do you love [phileo] me" three times. What was asked three times?

As I read the plain English, Jesus simply asked, "Do you love me?" three times. Hence the "second" and "third" time.

It would be like me asking:

Do you want to jump over the creek?

Do you want to jump over the creek?

Do you want to leap over the creek?

How many times did I ask for the person to hop over the creek?

God uses multiple words that mean the same thing all the time, even beginning in Genesis. See:

Isa_43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Mat_16:9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?

Mat_16:10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?

Mar_8:19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.

Mar_8:20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 -

1 Thessalonians 4:9 KJB - But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1Th 4:9 περιG4012 PREP δεG1161 CONJ τηςG3588 T-GSF φιλαδελφιαςG5360 N-GSF ουG3756 PRT-N χρειανG5532 N-ASF εχετεG2192 V-PAI-2P γραφεινG1125 V-PAN υμινG4771 P-2DP αυτοιG846 P-NPM γαρG1063 CONJ υμειςG4771 P-2NP θεοδιδακτοιG2312 A-NPM εστεG1510 V-PAI-2P ειςG1519 PREP τοG3588 T-ASN αγαπανG25 V-PAN αλληλουςG240 C-APM


1 Peter 1:22 -

1 Peter 1:22 KJB - Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Pe 1:22 ταςG3588 T-APF ψυχαςG5590 N-APF υμωνG4771 P-2GP ηγνικοτεςG48 V-RAP-NPM ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF υπακοηG5218 N-DSF τηςG3588 T-GSF αληθειαςG225 N-GSF διαG1223 PREP πνευματοςG4151 N-GSN ειςG1519 PREP φιλαδελφιανG5360 N-ASF ανυποκριτονG505 A-ASF εκG1537 PREP καθαραςG2513 A-GSF καρδιαςG2588 N-GSF αλληλουςG240 C-APM αγαπησατεG25 V-AAM-2P εκτενωςG1619 ADV

In reality, the Greek language has three words for love:
1. agape,
2.phileo,
3.and eros.

Eros is not confused with the other two because it refers to sexual love or lust.

The idea is that the distinction between the two words for love in Greek is always consistent and clearly distinctive. Therefore, the tendency of the King James translators to ignore this distinction and to translate these two very different words both as love is a failure of the King James Bible in translation.

The standard teaching is that agape is the highest and purest kind of love.

It is divine love and is used to express the essential nature of God 1 John 4:8...
"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

Phileo is distinguished as being the more personal of the two terms and refers often to a brotherly love. This is seen in the naming of the city of Philadelphia, which name means "the city of brotherly love."
 
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I will be your Daisey. Shoot!
-- Tombstone, Doc Holiday -- , but I think the script said "I'm your huckleberry ", and "You're a daisy if you do". ;) Two of the best lines in the movie!
Ummmmm, where to start. How about two points for the first half of 9:2:

Daniel 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived [H995 - biyn] in the books the number of years which, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

  1. In 1 Kings 3, GOD asked Solomon what HE would give him. And Solomon asked for a simple "wisdom"/"shama" which is analogous to reading the weather forecast in the newspaper. And GOD said that HE would give him what he asked for such that no man before him and no man after him shall have such "wisdom"/"biyn", which is analogous to understanding weather patterns so that you can predict the weather without a forecast. So given the literal text, Daniel did not simply read from the Book of Jeremiah, but instead read from a different "Books".
  2. Warvood cited Young regarding verse 24:
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

“This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God. Young goes on to point out that the expression the commandment, which he insists is better translated “a word” (Heb. Dābār; cf. 2Ch 30:5) is also found is Daniel 9:24 for a word from God.”[1]

[1] John Wolvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 224​

So the question is: Where is Scripture do you find "in the books" the "going forth of the Word". -- And I'll give you a running start. In 1985 J.R. Church, of the TV Program "Prophecy In The News", wrote a book titled "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", where he proposes that this 19th Book of the Bible is prophetic to the Jews for the 1900's, Chapter for year, such that: Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948 International Recognition of the State of Israel; Book 19, Chapter 44 = 1944 Holocaust; Book 19, Chapter 91 = 1991 Desert Storm; etc. -- So you might think about starting your search in the Book of Psalms ...

Ohhhhh yeah, one more clue: If you asked ANY person over 50 off the streets to quote an entire Chapter of the Bible, with a few prompts, I propose they could do it, -- but which Book & Chapter would that be? Possibly 23rd Psalm? And if that's a "cornerstone" Chapter, then would the "going forth of the word" possibly be nearby?

And finally, I've found that satan's minions always try to divert and distract any conversation regarding the things of GOD. So we could open a New Topic so that we don't hijack this one, or it might be better to use the "Conversation" instead, -- your call!

Game On,
DaDad
 
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