The 3rd Temple Problem for those outside of Christianity

[DavidPT]

Sorry, but the new temple in Jerusalem will have no bearing on the timing of the rapture. God is waiting for the final martyr of the church age.

And guess when this final martyr will obviously be? During the 42 month reign of the beast, IOW during great tribulation.

 

[DennisTate]

Christians already know the 3rd Temple will be for the coming of the Anti-Christ, it is really amazing how this is all set up as it was engineered to happen (About the prophecy coming true not the coming of the Anti-Christ.) But those outside of Christianity may not know of this, hopefully, they will have Bibles around. The Third Temple for Judaism is in preparation for the coming of the Rabbinic Messiah (The Anti-Christ).

There is no priesthood, the Romans destroyed the records of the priesthood along with the 2nd temple in 70AD, and any existing record has disappeared. Not one can prove they are a priest descendant from Aaron. When Ezra had the building for the 2nd temple, if a priest could not provide proof of his ancestry from the tribe of Levi they were not allowed in the temple. And there isn't one person no matter who they are, that can prove their priesthood. So no priesthood, no temple.

In Jerimiah CHP3
The Prophet Jerimiah proclaimed that at the coming of the New Covenant, that the temple would no longer be needed (discontinued). Ezekial temple is figurative for the Church.

The only true temple is the Church, and there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.

so any hopes and plans for the Third Temple for those outside of Christianity self-destructed. Blood Atonement for Sins happened at the Cross.

Messiah Yeshua - Jesus appeared / sounded like an "Anti-David" or "Anti-Solomon" or "anti- Moses" in his Sermon on the Mount!

Don't be so sure that a high percentage of we Christian Scribes and Pharisees might not manage to get the Cyrus type of Isaiah 42 to 46 all confused with the Anti-Christ Antiochus type??????!!!!

If President Trump manages to get the Jerusalem Third Temple built........ noise from Christians about him being in league with the dark side will probably even increase.........
because we live and breathe fear.......
and we fear the coming of the Antiochus type more than we want to see the full fledged fulfillment of Zechariah chapter 14..........

Is a Jerusalem Third Temple needed before Zechariah 14 can happen?

For more information on this do a search for the name "Eporu Ronald Alfred" here on the forums. He wrote a quite insightful article about the coming of a "Christian Political Cyrus" that I found and shared back in 2010..... a year before Mr Mark Taylor was given his first major insight on this.

 

[Not David]

David, that's not the thing to argue over. For likewise, the Jews will embrace someone who God did not send to be their King of Israel - i.e. the messiah - but he will not be the messiah.

What we have to look at it for, is the Jews are getting ready to build their temple - what it means for us, is a sign that our redemption draws near. Not the theological rightness or wrongness of what they are doing.

Then don't talk about the abomination of desolation since there could be no such things in that place.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Then don't talk about the abomination of desolation since there could be no such things in that place.

What do you and/or others think about Josephus's mention of a statue of Caligula being put the Temple years before the Temple got decimated in 70ad?

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Abomination Desolation

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then, ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>.......
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>
Luke 21:20
Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops, then be knowing that come nigh desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her

Revelation 18:19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate<2049>.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state........and the establishment of Christianity in the world..........

To particularize in a few instances : About three years after the death of Christ, a war broke out between Herod and Aretas, king of Arabia Petraea, in which the army of the former was cut off. This was kingdom rising against kingdom Wars are usually preceded by rumours.

It may, therefore, appear absurd to attempt a distinct elucidation of this part of the prophecy ; nevertheless, it ought not to be omitted, that about this time, the emperor Caligula, having ordered his statue to be placed in the temple of Jerusalem, and the Jews having persisted to refuse him, the whole nation were so much alarmed, by the mere apprehension of war, that they neglected even to till their lands !
The storm, however, blew over.

From the conquest of their country by Pompey, about sixty years B. C. the Jews had, on several occasions, manifested a refractory spirit ; but after Judas the Gaulonite and Sadduc the Pharisee had tau ght them, that submission to the Roman assessments would pave the way to a state of abject slavery, this temper displayed itself with increasing malignity and violence.
Rebellious tumults and insurrections became fame and more frequent and alarming ;.........


.

 

[Calminian]

You are confusing what this post was about. I never claimed the Third temple being built in Isreal is where God would be....

I noticed they always do this. Wish I understood why. Perhaps it's to disrupt. All premillennial prophecy needs is the Temple during the Tribulation, not a converted Israel. That can't happen until the end of the Tribulation. But that won't stop them. It's the first objection they'll always bring up. Go figure.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I was liking your comment until you mentioned "ornate Catholic building".

Come on, Evan as a Catholic you haven’t been visited as in sight seeing some really spooky looking Catholic Churches. Like of the Roman type in the Southwest?

 

[BABerean2]

All premillennial prophecy needs is the Temple during the Tribulation, not a converted Israel. That can't happen until the end of the Tribulation.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

How many people will be saved at His Second Coming, based on the scripture found above?

.

 

[klutedavid]

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

How many people will be saved at His Second Coming, based on the scripture found above?

.

Five, and they are virgins. Not good news for the rest of us.

 

[Calminian]

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

How many people will be saved at His Second Coming, based on the scripture found above?

.

Thank you. All those verses prove my point, and falsify yours.

 

[redleghunter]

First of all, no everyone believes in Rapture Theology and a Jewish Temple.
Second, do you think the idea about the Rapture is a secret only Christians know it? The whole US relation with Israel is based around that idea.

Paul did say there is neither Jew nor Greek all are in Christ.

I guess now that being the ground rule, and the church=Israel, then all of us are now entitled to land in Israel.

I’ll take a condo overlooking the Dead Sea please.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I appreciate and concur with much in your responses. Here is some historical commentary and context from two apologists of the early Church:

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom (347-407 AD), an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

Chrysostom was affirming what Tertullian (160-220AD) had said over a century earlier:

ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."

Re. your comment:
"Certainly we see no evidence of it in the first 1500 years of Christ's Church, and the notion that Christ had no disciples back then, save the Apostles themselves, does a grave injustice to the work of the Holy Spirit; who quickens us in every generation to Christ."

There has always been, and will always be, the true Church. But the evidences of apostasy in the institutionalized church began in the 6th century, and reached their zenith in the 16th century. God raised up the Reformers to reclaim His True Church from the spiritual bondage which had enslaved it.

i think you are almost right

at first. The Roman Empire. Under Caesar and Augustus. And the early emperors. Was still very Republican in? It's trapping. The early empire is called the Principate. Because in the main even the emperors. merely claimed to be the first amongst equals the first citizen of the Republic.

But with Diocletian, infamous for his fears persecutions of the church. The Principate. And all Republican trappings were swept aside. Diocletian ushered in the dominate where in the emperor was openly worshipped as a God man on Earth. And that's when the fiercest persecution of Christians began. Daisho Kliche and destroyed all church is all complete copies of the Bible. And executed or imprisoned all. Leading church officials.

So when the last vestiges of the Roman REPUBLIC and it's legal law abiding. Ideology was swept aside. Then. The persecutions of Christians began. Until he was defeated by Emperor Constantine.

 

[jgr]

i think you are almost right

at first. The Roman Empire. Under Caesar and Augustus. And the early emperors. Was still very Republican in? It's trapping. The early empire is called the Principate. Because in the main even the emperors. merely claimed to be the first amongst equals the first citizen of the Republic.

But with Diocletian, infamous for his fears persecutions of the church. The Principate. And all Republican trappings were swept aside. Diocletian ushered in the dominate where in the emperor was openly worshipped as a God man on Earth. And that's when the fiercest persecution of Christians began. Daisho Kliche and destroyed all church is all complete copies of the Bible. And executed or imprisoned all. Leading church officials.

So when the last vestiges of the Roman REPUBLIC and it's legal law abiding. Ideology was swept aside. Then. The persecutions of Christians began. Until he was defeated by Emperor Constantine.

There certainly was a surfeit of persecution under pagan imperial Rome. But even despite that, Paul, Tertullian, Chrysostom, et al recognized it as a restraint on what would follow, realizing that what would follow would ultimately take an even greater toll on the true Church.

History confirms that it did.

 

[Douggg]

Then don't talk about the abomination of desolation since there could be no such things in that place.

David, desolation of the temple means that there will be no praise and worship of the One True God, while that object is in the temple.

Jews worship and praise the One True God. It is doesn't mean they are saved. But who they worship and praise is the One True God.

 

[BABerean2]

Jews worship and praise the One True God. It is doesn't mean they are saved. But who they worship and praise is the One True God.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


Nobody can reject the Son and then worship and praise the Father.

Anyone who rejects the Son is "antichrist".

You are attempting to promote some form of Dual Covenant Theology.

.

 

[Erik Nelson]

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


Nobody can reject the Son and then worship and praise the Father.

Anyone who rejects the Son is "antichrist".

You are attempting to promote some form of Dual Covenant Theology.

.

Both Rabbi Judah ben Illai who praised God for not making him a goy, as well as rabbi Simeon ben Yochai, were active in the early second century, and as disciples of Rabbi Akiva, participated in the bar Kochba rebellion against emperor Hadrian.

Judah ben Illai taught rabbi Judah ha-Nasi who in the late second century was a confidant of an emperor with the name Antoninus. somewhere it is said that his butler had more money than the shah of Persia (even a century or more after the looting of the temple). The "holy rabbi" compiled the Mishnah, the first part of the Talmud, to preserve the teachings of the rabbis from the OT era to the second century AD

Mary is "She who was the descendant of Princes and governors..." confirms royal noble heritage, yet Jesus, "They subjected him to 4 deaths stoning burning decapitation and strangulation", is difficult to understand, since of course it was the Romans who were the executioners, and decapitation was only for Roman citizens, whereas stoning was not a Roman punishment

 

[John 1720]

I appreciate and concur with much in your responses. Here is some historical commentary and context from two apologists of the early Church:

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom (347-407 AD), an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Thank you sir!
I really appreciate your perspective and especially your additional quotes from Tertullian and from the 'Golden tongued preacher', John Chrysostom on his perspective on 2nd Thessalonians. I'd like to address them in the same order you have and go with John first.
Indeed, with respect to the postulate that Paul was inferring Rome with his reference to restraint, this is a homily we all should give due consideration to as evidentiary. Certainly it meets the criteria of being early on in Christian history; a mere two generations past the Council of Nicaea and the age of Constantine the Great. It is also fair to say it comes from a very gifted orator of Christ's Gospel who strove to follow Apostolic traditions. For a more complete perspective on John's homily, I included a translation of his 4th homily on 2nd Thessalonians in the url link below.

• CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Second Thessalonians (Chrysostom)

In consideration of his source we should ask ourselves if John was indeed referencing an earlier source or just reasoning between two camps of thought on what Paul actually meant. It would be important to discover if this was passed down to him, as known apostolic tradition as to its meaning, or if he was perhaps merely reasoning this out for himself and with his audience.
Clearly, I believe it is the latter, since he prefaces his opinion by stating.

• "One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholds, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that which withholds, that is, hinders him from being revealed? "

He also identifies that two camps of thought existed at the time concerning an interpretive exegesis. He was preaching in the setting of Antioch but I think it is fair to say these were not only two camps within the confines of Antioch but within Eastern Christianity itself.

• "Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede."

By summarily adding "to whom I most of all accede", I believe we can without question say that John was reasoning this out for himself, even as pastors do in our own day when preaching. We can even go a bit further if we dissect what he meant by adding the qualifying phrase, "most of all". Was there perhaps some doubt as to that conclusion? However, it's enough to say that this was opinion and not Apostolic exegetical tradition. Additionally John does identify another camp of Christian exegetes as interpreting that the restrainer was the Holy Spirit.

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

I think, based on John Chrysostom's homily, that conclusion remains somewhat speculative. I still owe you an analysis on Tertullian but do not have the time for a lengthier response at the moment.

Re. your comment:
"Certainly we see no evidence of it in the first 1500 years of Christ's Church, and the notion that Christ had no disciples back then, save the Apostles themselves, does a grave injustice to the work of the Holy Spirit; who quickens us in every generation to Christ."

There has always been, and will always be, the true Church. But the evidences of apostasy in the institutionalized church began in the 6th century, and reached their zenith in the 16th century. God raised up the Reformers to reclaim His True Church from the spiritual bondage which had enslaved it.

Yes, perhaps my statement was a little stronger than prudent but here we are in the very late 4th century with no hard evidence; yet instead an indicative discernment that there were in reality two camps regarding whether the restrainer was the Holy Spirit or the Roman Empire.
Now my opinion of Revelation and the breaking of seals as well as the riders that go forth throughout the earth is that God unleashes these things and they continue to make their circuit throughout history. Therefore Christ came forth providing mankind with the grace of Salvation and unleashing His Gospel, whom He entrusted to His apostle, and which has been subsequently been passed down to us.

The 1st Seal: Christ the Victor and Conqueror: the Gospel is unleashed upon the earth and in every generation of battle it goes forth into all the world bringing in the Sheaves.

• "Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. - Revelation 6:1-2
• This battle and the Great Commission to go into all the world with the Gospel and make disciples has been passed down to our generation as well. The circuit of our Lord still rides throughout the Earth.

​

Second Seal: Conflicts on Earth - Wars and rumors of wars.

• • When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword. - Revelation 6:3-4
  • Matthew 24:6 and Mark 13:7 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
• Third Seal: Famine upon Earth - Revelation 6:5-6

• When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.” - Revelation 6:5-6

Fourth Seal: Widespread Death on Earth

• When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:7-8

​

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs slaughtered for the witness of the Gospel

• • When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6:9-11

So, I believe the broken seals are representations of the types of major events that will have an impact the spread of the Gospel. As we know we are told by Jesus that the Gospel will go forth until the end of the age and He is with us in this sacred endeavor. The proportionality as to the occurrences may differ over time but an inference as to its acceleration, as we approach the end of the age, is not a great leap.
So, I don't think the antichrist Paul identified was Nero any more than I think Hitler was the anti-Christ. Nor do I think we should believe that when the Western Roman Empire fell did that ushered in the appearance of that 'man of perdition'. So it's superfluous to state that my opinion of the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century differs either.
Their works were in no doubt extremely evil and against Christ but they were all mere prototypes of the anti-Christ to come, who is the son of perdition. Just as we have prototypes of Christ, the Son of God, in the Old Testament, we also have prototypes of anti-Christ, the son of satan. first prophesied in Genesis 3:15.

More on Tertullian later, may the peace of Christ be upon you and your family.
In Christ, Patrick

 

[Douggg]

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


Nobody can reject the Son and then worship and praise the Father.

Anyone who rejects the Son is "antichrist".

You are attempting to promote some form of Dual Covenant Theology.

.

You took those verses out of context. John was talking about people in his day who had abandoned Christianity and were denying Jesus being the messiah and the Son of God.


18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. And could have an affect of causing others to depart the faith.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
_____________________________________________________

Bab2, you wrote...."You are attempting to promote some form of Dual Covenant Theology."

What I promote is one way to be saved and have eternal life and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross.

You are confusing eschatology with theology.

The end times events are going to take place no matter what any individual person's religion or no religion is.

Instead of looking at eschatology with the right frame of mind, you are using your theology focus that the Jews are wrong to deny deny deny what is taking place. Without even thinking that God gave us those prophecies so that we would be in the light and not in darkness. And for assurance and hope that our redemption draws near. It is Jesus in the morning, Jesus during the day, Jesus in the evening, Jesus when we go to sleep at night.

Everybody here knows the the Jews are wrong theologically speaking because they reject Jesus. That is not something that has to be stated over and over.

What is important to Christians is that as the time approaches for fulfillment of the end times prophecies, our redemption draws near. And we shouldn't go into denial, for the sake of some theological cause.

You have lost your way. Our redemption draws near. That is what you focus should be on in evaluating events unfolding. Not a campaign on the Jews are wrong in their rejection of Christ - Christians here all know that.

Evaluate the end times events in light of those being signs that our redemption draws near.

1Corinthians2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[BABerean2]

You have lost your way. Our redemption draws near. That is what you focus should be on in evaluating events unfolding. Not a campaign on the Jews are wrong in their rejection of Christ - Christians here all know that.

I have not lost my way.
I want every human on this planet to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest, and any person living in the middle east.
They all need Christ for the same reason, and in the same way.

The claim that modern Jews can reject Christ and still worship God is one of the most cruel ways to let them die in their sins.

The time to take the Gospel to the Jewish people, is now.


Forbidden Chapter in the Tanakh
(Jewish Evangelism)

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[Douggg]

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest, and any person living in the middle east.
They all need Christ for the same reason, and in the same way.

They do. But is that going to change that the end time events are going to take place? No, it does not.

I have not lost my way.

I want every human on this planet to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

You have lost your way - eschatologically speaking - and the priority of what it means as signs that our redemption draws near. Instead you are consumed by theological debate - which you are in denial of what is going on because of it.

 

[Calminian]

You took those verses out of context. John was talking about people in his day who had abandoned Christianity and were denying Jesus being the messiah and the Son of God.


18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. And could have an affect of causing others to depart the faith.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
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Bab2, you wrote...."You are attempting to promote some form of Dual Covenant Theology."

What I promote is one way to be saved and have eternal life and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross.

You are confusing eschatology with theology.

The end times events are going to take place no matter what any individual person's religion or no religion is.

Instead of looking at eschatology with the right frame of mind, you are using your theology focus that the Jews are wrong to deny deny deny what is taking place. Without even thinking that God gave us those prophecies so that we would be in the light and not in darkness. And for assurance and hope that our redemption draws near. It is Jesus in the morning, Jesus during the day, Jesus in the evening, Jesus when we go to sleep at night.

Everybody here knows the the Jews are wrong theologically speaking because they reject Jesus. That is not something that has to be stated over and over.

What is important to Christians is that as the time approaches for fulfillment of the end times prophecies, our redemption draws near. And we shouldn't go into denial, for the sake of some theological cause.

You have lost your way. Our redemption draws near. That is what you focus should be on in evaluating events unfolding. Not a campaign on the Jews are wrong in their rejection of Christ - Christians here all know that.

Evaluate the end times events in light of those being signs that our redemption draws near.

1Corinthians2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

What some seem to advocate is the idea that unbelieving Jews (Jews that are not Christians) don't really exist. Once the Church was established, the Jewish identity transferred to the Church, and being Jewish and Christian became synonymous (so they argue).

Of course this is impossible to reconcile with the New Testament which makes distinctions between Jews and gentiles throughout.

I don't think this is the case with all covenant theology, but there does seem to be a strain with a particular angst toward ethnic Jews and a strong desire to delegitimize them as an ethnic group and delegitimize Israel as a rightful nation.

I my opinion, they're doing Satan's bidding.