James: "The Effectual, Fervent Prayer of the Righteous Man..."

[Par5]

And how do you feel about abortion? How do you feel about children with autism being euthanized? The elderly? How do you feel about women being stoned to death for adultery for being raped?

I have my opinion regarding those things, but you mentioning those things is simply an exercise in deflection. Your, ah but what about this and what about that doesn't answer the question of whether you consider the slaughter of the Canaanites, including the women and children, to be morally wrong. Well, do you?

 

[Par5]

So, you haven't actually 'read' the Bible like an accountable person who has integrity would do? You instead just kind of dismiss it out of hand, kind of like someone who would resort to more or less extreme Leftist or Rightist style tactics? Man, I hope this isn't the case with you, Par5.

Please tell me I'm wrong about you on this, because for the life of me, I deem a person who won't hear another person out or won't offer their own justifications to explain and support their own even 'self-evident' point of view---especially he or she disagrees with the other person---to be somewhat socially dangerous in my book.

So now you doubt my integrity and consider me to be somewhat socially dangerous because I say that murdering women and children is wrong. You keep going on about me not offering any justification for what I say. Well I have, often. I have stated that the action taken against the Canaanites was wrong and my justification for saying so was that they also slaughtered women and children. You believe such a thing can be justified. What does that make you?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So now you doubt my integrity and consider me to be somewhat socially dangerous because I say that murdering women and children is wrong. You keep going on about me not offering any justification for what I say. Well I have, often. I have stated that the action taken against the Canaanites was wrong and my justification for saying so was that they also slaughtered women and children. You believe such a thing can be justified. What does that make you?

I have no idea about the amount of integrity that you may or may not actually have, morally speaking. What I do know is that you obfuscate and respond to my attempts to explain and to justify what happened to the literary [fictional? or historical?] figures in the Bible known as the Canaanites, and when I do so, or when others do so, you react as if someone just shot your little puppy! Well, no one has actually shot your little puppy, Par5, and as far as I know, no one will be doing so!

So, grow some philosophical backbone and learn how to handle and discuss hard topics rather than hand-wave everything away! I mean, by not actually offering justification for your own point of view, you're not actually helping to make this a better world ................................................... because you give the rest of us nothing to learn from. No, you just give us a vignette that tells the rest of us nothing more than that you think, "Here I sit! I dare you to move me!"

 

[Oncedeceived]

I have my opinion regarding those things, but you mentioning those things is simply an exercise in deflection. Your, ah but what about this and what about that doesn't answer the question of whether you consider the slaughter of the Canaanites, including the women and children, to be morally wrong. Well, do you?

It is related. Do you think there is evil in the world?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Not all atheists agree with you.

Most atheists are pro choice and it's probably not even close. There are also Christians who are pro choice, though obviously not as much of a proportion as among the atheist community. The clincher, however, is that the Bible promotes abortions. See the latter half of Numbers 5. I've only had two Christians admit the obvious with regards to this passage. Both are pro life and both admitted that the passage advocates God-guided abortion as a punishment to the mother for infidelity.

So I guess it's more of a question of why Christians are pro life. The Bible endorses abortion and it's commonly believed that aborted babies have a 100% chance of entry into heaven, which is better than their chances if they're born.

 

[Petros2015]

availeth little.

Sure it does. The Nazi's weren't praying. That's why they were murdering.

 

[Petros2015]

See, here's the thing.

When you look at the Lord's Prayer

And it says

"and deliver us from evil"

Did you think he meant from the evil Without?
Or the evil Within?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sure it does. The Nazi's weren't praying. That's why they were murdering.

Gott mit uns

 

[Petros2015]

Gott mit uns

Wrong God, I suspect.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Most atheists are pro choice and it's probably not even close. There are also Christians who are pro choice, though obviously not as much of a proportion as among the atheist community. The clincher, however, is that the Bible promotes abortions. See the latter half of Numbers 5. I've only had two Christians admit the obvious with regards to this passage. Both are pro life and both admitted that the passage advocates God-guided abortion as a punishment to the mother for infidelity.

Close to what?

The Bible doesn't promote abortion. I've heard this before, I'm not sure where or what gives you the assumption of abortion so I'll wait to see what you feel shows promotion of abortion. If you are pro-choice why would this be troublesome to you?

So I guess it's more of a question of why Christians are pro life. The Bible endorses abortion and it's commonly believed that aborted babies have a 100% chance of entry into heaven, which is better than their chances if they're born.

So we should just kill all children so they have 100% entry into heaven? Are you serious?

 

[Petros2015]

So we should just kill all children so they have 100% entry into heaven? Are you serious?

Well I don't know, I've seen some arguments that 100% of babies roast eternally in hell, so I really feel like we should clarify that before we start going down that route.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Wrong God, I suspect.

Ah yes. The old No True Scotsman ploy. Of course, I knew it was coming, you know.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ah yes. The old No True Scotsman ploy. Of course, I knew it was coming, you know.View attachment 245190

Either that, or both Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Dean Heinrich Grüber weren't real Christian themselves.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Well I don't know, I've seen some arguments that 100% of babies roast eternally in hell, so I really feel like we should clarify that before we start going down that route.

I don't know any theology for all children going to hell, but the opposite.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Wrong God, I suspect.

Were they praying to Zeus or something?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Close to what?

I don't understand what this question is referring to from my quote.

The Bible doesn't promote abortion. I've heard this before, I'm not sure where or what gives you the assumption of abortion so I'll wait to see what you feel shows promotion of abortion.

You aren't commenting on the passage so it's not clear to me you've even looked at it yet. Also I'm not going to bother with an explanation until you give me a list of Biblical translations you accept. I've shown this to a ton of Christians only to see them disavow every translation that I use and insist upon using the translation for which this passage is least clear.

If you are pro-choice why would this be troublesome to you?

1. I never said I was pro choice. We just had a dialogue about that.

2. If I was pro choice I'd obviously be opposed to the ritual described in the passage. You seem to be equating abortion with choice and I'm not sure why. The passage details how a woman is forced to have an abortion. That's not what pro choice advocates. Choice is a key part of pro choice.

So we should just kill all children so they have 100% entry into heaven? Are you serious?

I'm not advocating the murder of anyone. I'm saying that a genuine conclusion based on Christian assumptions is that babies should be killed.

1. When babies die they go straight to heaven

2. When babies grow up there is a chance they will turn away from God and go to hell

3. The only way to ensure that a person goes to heaven is to kill them before they grow up

4. It is better for a person to go to heaven than for them to go to hell

5. It is better for people if you kill them while they are a baby



Simple stuff. The problem lies with the initial assumptions, that is, the core doctrine of Christianity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Were they praying to Zeus or something?

...or something.

Positive Christianity - Wikipedia

 

[Nihilist Virus]

...or something.

Positive Christianity - Wikipedia

That's cultural appropriation. It doesn't prove your point. Or will someone go to hell for believing Jesus was black?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's cultural appropriation. It doesn't prove your point. Or will someone go to hell for believing Jesus was black?

No, I don't don't think they'll go to hell for believing Jesus was black; but they might go to hell if they actively think He was anything other that Jewish ... a notion that jut about all of the Nazis would have gagged on. Too bad for them.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

No, I don't don't think they'll go to hell for believing Jesus was black; but they might go to hell if they actively think He was anything other that Jewish ... a notion that jut about all of the Nazis would have gagged on. Too bad for them.

I think you're just inventing that to try to win this discussion. I've never heard of this being a salvation issue, and I seriously doubt you have either.