The United Methodist Schism

[tulipbee]

Every approach to church organization has strengths and weaknesses. The strength of itineracy is that it prevents pastors from becoming identified with their church. In some church traditions, Christianity is what their preacher says it is, and you choose churches by the preacher.

But the model used by traditional Protestant denominations is that the real direction of the local church is set by a session or board, and that the vision of Christianity is a shared one set by confessions and deliberations at a denominational level, and not the personal views of pastors.

I've seen problems caused by the Methodist system. I'm no longer a Methodist. But it's not necessarily outdated and corrupt.

for now I'm looking at apostolic succession like this:

1- a church that tries to be connected.
2- a church that tries not to be connected.

I'm concerned about those that tries not like leaving out that bishop ordains bishop. the Baptists and Presbyterians lets the local elders ordain the pastors and leaves out apostolic succession all together.
I'd like to know what means when a pastor is ordained in a PCA seminary of some sort. does it matter how far back the apostolic trail goes? do we need to flip coins to choose which side is right when both sides of the issue is backed with bible quote. instead of flipping coins, why not pick a side that covers both. allowing women ordination covers both sides in case the Baptists are wrong about men only ordination

 

[tulipbee]

I would suggest that itineracy helps to prevent corruption since pastors aren't just moving to where the money is and staying there once they have the largest and richest congregations possible. Because UMC pastors are appointed by the Bishop/DS, pastors also aren't financially controlled by their congregations and threatened with being fired by them if he or she preaches an unpopular sermon topic or steps out of line in some way (in their view). Sometimes pastors need to make unpopular decisions if an unhealthy church is going to become a healthy church, but they often get fired before it can happen. The UMC itineracy system can also help prevent a congregation and/or pastor from becoming complacent and overly-comfortable.

are elders of a local church appointed by the Bishop/DS, pastors or just the local church pastor? how do you know if a pastor of a local UMC are appointed by the Bishop/DS, pastors? and why are they not titled bishop?

 

[Rawtheran]

are elders of a local church appointed by the Bishop/DS, pastors or just the local church pastor? how do you know if a pastor of a local UMC are appointed by the Bishop/DS, pastors? and why are they not titled bishop?

There is a long process that Pastors must go through in order to become Ordained but I'll try to spell it out for you as best as I can. So in the UMC there are three categories of ministry through which one can pursue which are Licensed Local Pastor, Elder, and Deacon. When someone first senses the call to Ministry they will then interview with their pastor in order to begin the candidacy process. After this the candidate will then go through a series of interviews with the District Superintendent, Charge Conference, and eventually the District Commitee on Ordained Ministry who will make the final decision on whether or not someone will continue on with their candidacy. Once the DCOM approves of a candidate they then have the option of becoming a Licensed Local Pastor where the District Superintendent will work alongside the Bishop to find a church that needs a pastor and then the candidate will be given a license for pastoral ministry and placed in that church. That appointment will then become official during what is called an Annual Conference session where the DS's will read out loud pastors being appointed and the Bishop will then approve of them. After a Pastor is appointed they can either decide to pursue Ordained Ministry as an Elder which requires pursuing an MDIV and two interviews with the Conference Board of Ordained Ministry. Or a Pastor can choose to remain an LLP but they can lose their license at any time and their appointment to a church is only for a year and must be approved annually by both the DCOM, DS, and the Bishop. Once an Elder is officially Ordained they have permanent job security in a sense but at the same time they agree to go wherever the Bishop sends them often times serving a church for 5-7 years before moving on.

 

[Dave-W]

After a Pastor is appointed they can either decide to pursue Ordained Ministry as an Elder which requires pursuing an MDIV and two interviews with the Conference Board of Ordained Ministry.

What if one already has Mdiv or a ThD?

 

[hedrick]

I'm concerned about those that tries not like leaving out that bishop ordains bishop. the Baptists and Presbyterians lets the local elders ordain the pastors and leaves out apostolic succession all together.

Presbyterian churches are connectional. Representatives of the Presbytery ordain pastors. Those representatives may be elders or pastors. Basically the Presbytery acts like a corporate bishop. When they send a commission to ordain someone it's our equivalent of a bishop ordaining them.

 

[Rawtheran]

What if one already has Mdiv or a ThD?

In that case you would have to go to a United Methodist seminary and take the Basic Graduate Courses which is about 20-30 credit hours. After that there is a two year probationary period where you are appointed to a church and then after an interview with the BOOM and a vote by the Annual Conference you can become ordained.

 

[bekkilyn]

There is a long process that Pastors must go through in order to become Ordained but I'll try to spell it out for you as best as I can. So in the UMC there are three categories of ministry through which one can pursue which are Licensed Local Pastor, Elder, and Deacon. When someone first senses the call to Ministry they will then interview with their pastor in order to begin the candidacy process. After this the candidate will then go through a series of interviews with the District Superintendent, Charge Conference, and eventually the District Commitee on Ordained Ministry who will make the final decision on whether or not someone will continue on with their candidacy. Once the DCOM approves of a candidate they then have the option of becoming a Licensed Local Pastor where the District Superintendent will work alongside the Bishop to find a church that needs a pastor and then the candidate will be given a license for pastoral ministry and placed in that church. That appointment will then become official during what is called an Annual Conference session where the DS's will read out loud pastors being appointed and the Bishop will then approve of them. After a Pastor is appointed they can either decide to pursue Ordained Ministry as an Elder which requires pursuing an MDIV and two interviews with the Conference Board of Ordained Ministry. Or a Pastor can choose to remain an LLP but they can lose their license at any time and their appointment to a church is only for a year and must be approved annually by both the DCOM, DS, and the Bishop. Once an Elder is officially Ordained they have permanent job security in a sense but at the same time they agree to go wherever the Bishop sends them often times serving a church for 5-7 years before moving on.

I just want to add that there is an alternate (but longer) track for a Licensed Local Pastor to become ordained without getting an MDIV. All Licensed Local Pastors must complete a 5 year course of study and then have the option of applying to become an Associate in the Conference, and then may pursue the Advanced Course of Study rather than an MDIV. After completing the Advanced Course of Study, the Licensed Local Pastor may pursue ordination, which I believe is then the same process as after completing an MDIV. The pastor would still continue to pastor the church while in this process rather than leaving to go to school full time.

The advantage to this track is that it is MUCH less of a financial burden than an MDIV, so the pastor would not be taking on a lifetime of school debt, which is pretty important if starting this process later in life, 2nd career, etc.

 

[tulipbee]

Presbyterian churches are connectional. Representatives of the Presbytery ordain pastors. Those representatives may be elders or pastors. Basically the Presbytery acts like a corporate bishop. When they send a commission to ordain someone it's our equivalent of a bishop ordaining them.

so was a Presbytery is started by a single person with no connection to apostolic succession?
why can't John Knox, who was ordained a priest in the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, continue the successions?

 

[tulipbee]

There is a long process that Pastors must go through in order to become Ordained but I'll try to spell it out for you as best as I can. So in the UMC there are three categories of ministry through which one can pursue which are Licensed Local Pastor, Elder, and Deacon. When someone first senses the call to Ministry they will then interview with their pastor in order to begin the candidacy process. After this the candidate will then go through a series of interviews with the District Superintendent, Charge Conference, and eventually the District Commitee on Ordained Ministry who will make the final decision on whether or not someone will continue on with their candidacy. Once the DCOM approves of a candidate they then have the option of becoming a Licensed Local Pastor where the District Superintendent will work alongside the Bishop to find a church that needs a pastor and then the candidate will be given a license for pastoral ministry and placed in that church. That appointment will then become official during what is called an Annual Conference session where the DS's will read out loud pastors being appointed and the Bishop will then approve of them. After a Pastor is appointed they can either decide to pursue Ordained Ministry as an Elder which requires pursuing an MDIV and two interviews with the Conference Board of Ordained Ministry. Or a Pastor can choose to remain an LLP but they can lose their license at any time and their appointment to a church is only for a year and must be approved annually by both the DCOM, DS, and the Bishop. Once an Elder is officially Ordained they have permanent job security in a sense but at the same time they agree to go wherever the Bishop sends them often times serving a church for 5-7 years before moving on.

do pastors stay longer than 7 years or do a all umc pastors move around like that?
do pastors get paid the same no matter which location?
what happens when a church don't tithe enough to pay pastors?

 

[hedrick]

so was a Presbytery is started by a single person with no connection to apostolic succession?
why can't John Knox, who was ordained a priest in the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, continue the successions?

The first Presbytery in the US was founded by several clergyman, led by Francis Makemie. He had been ordained in Ireland. I assume other clergy came from England and Scotland. You'd have to trace those churches to know just what connection they had with the succession.

I'm not sure how relevant this is to anything, since (1) most Protestants don't believe in the apostolic succession, and (2) in Catholic tradition, only bishops can ordain bishops, and only bishops pass on the succession.

It's certainly true that the Methodist and Presbyterian churches are based on reform movements within existing churches, but have substantial continuity with them. It's fairly rare for churches to start fresh, with no organizational continuity. There's one group in the US that did that. It led to the Church of Christ and the Disciples of Christ. But even they started with ministers from other groups, and most of their doctrine is part of the common Christian tradition.

 

[bekkilyn]

I'm not sure how relevant this is to anything, since (1) most Protestants don't believe in the apostolic succession

This is true. At the times when I've looked for a new church, my primary concern was the doctrine, if they preached the gospel of Jesus Christ and didn't have odd cult-like beliefs that deviated from that gospel in some way. I'd never even heard of apostolic succession for most years, and even now that I know what it is, it seems a bit silly to me to worry about since God can just directly choose whomever he wants for some purpose without any intermediaries, just like he did with Paul. The only time it might matter is if you are trying to join some particular denomination as some particular thing and need the humans who created/sustain the organization to allow you entry. As long as you say yes to whatever God wants for you, he will find some way for you to do the work he has called you to do, apostolic succession or otherwise.

 

[Dave-W]

It's fairly rare for churches to start fresh, with no organizational continuity. There's one group in the US that did that. It led to the Church of Christ and the Disciples of Christ. But even they started with ministers from other groups, and most of their doctrine is part of the common Christian tradition.

Ah yes. The Stone/Campbell restoration movement. It also includes the Christian Church as well, who are identical to Church of Christ except they allow musical instruments. They do have a few distinctives like regenerational baptism. But Stone and Campbell and the others who were with them all came from old line denominational backgrounds. (Mostly Presbyterian)

The one group that has a completely separate beginning is the modern Messianic movement, which was started in the late 1800s by 3 Eastern European orthodox rabbis: Lichtenstein in Rumania, Rabinowitz in Russia and Cohn in Hungary.

 

[Rawtheran]

do pastors stay longer than 7 years or do a all umc pastors move around like that?
do pastors get paid the same no matter which location?
what happens when a church don't tithe enough to pay pastors?

There are some instances where pastors will stay longer than 7 years but this is very rare and there has to be extenuating circumstances for this to happen. In terms of how pastors get paid there is a minimum compensation package that the conference sets for a pastors benefits but it is up to the church to pay them the minimum or higher. I'm also glad you mentioned tithes in your 3rd question because this is something that is actually becoming a big factor in the UMC where many churches are starting to not be able to afford paying an Elder even the minimum salary because giving is down all across the board. Usually if a church isn't able to pay a pastor than the Pastor either has to move, take early retirement, or go on honorable location which is just a fancy term for find another job or accept a really small appointment where you basically work for free. This is why I said I disagree with the itineracy is because many pastors use this as a way to just keep getting bigger churches and a way to move up like in a corporation. The problem with the UMC overall is not the theology or the worship but rather it has lost its mission and focus which is to make disciples of Jesus for the transformation of the world. Aww well this is the way of things I guess. Denominations in history have constantly risen and then died..... very sad outcome.

 

[bekkilyn]

The problem with the UMC overall is not the theology or the worship but rather it has lost its mission and focus which is to make disciples of Jesus for the transformation of the world. Aww well this is the way of things I guess. Denominations in history have constantly risen and then died..... very sad outcome.

This really isn't a problem with the UMC so much as it's a problem with Christian churches everywhere. As Thom Rainer, the former CEO of LifeWay says, too many people have a "country club" mentality when it comes to church membership. People pay their dues (tithes) and then expect something that caters to them in return rather than having a community, gospel-oriented focus. It's everywhere and in practically every church. Complacency and an internal "me first" focus kills churches.

One reason I am staying with the UMC is that I believe very much in core Wesleyan theology. A second reason is that they are one of the denominations that treat women as full persons created in the image of God, and therefore do not put up false barriers when God calls her to do his work.

Every denomination has its issues, so do be careful not to get caught up in the "grass is greener" syndrome and just end up without any sort of church home because none of them are perfect. I agree that there needs to be revival, within the UMC and elsewhere. This years-long hyperfocus on homosexuality (and not even just within the UMC) has distracted too many from the great commission because too many people are willing to live and die on *that* hill rather than focusing on the gospel of Jesus Christ and witnessing to the unchurched and non-believers.

I just hope the UMC decides *something* in February and regardless of whatever decision is made we can then get to focusing on the great commission rather than endlessly arguing over a non-salvational social principle.

 

[hedrick]

I just hope the UMC decides *something* in February and regardless of whatever decision is made we can then get to focusing on the great commission rather than endlessly arguing over a non-salvational social principle.

I'm sympathetic with your position. Just don't be disappointed if there isn't a clear resolution. First, either of the major alternatives will result in a split. The traditionalist plan includes it explicitly. The one church plan will cause conservative churches to withdraw, though maybe no as many as seem to be threatening it. Second, there are obvious possibilities for nothing to be resolved. The two most likely candidates:

• The traditionalist plan is adopted, but it proves impossible actually to force out liberals. The Judicial Council would probably rule that the loyalty oaths included in the plan are unconstitutional, and bishops might well not be willing to take mass disciplinary action. For the Judicial Council's statement, see Court: One Church Plan Largely Constitutional
• The one church plan is adopted, but the vote for the necessary change in the Discipline fails.

Either of these leaves the denomination in pretty much the state it's in now. Given that the language could well be revised, my bet is that the outcome will be retaining a condemnation of gay marriage, but a system that de fact won't stop pastors from doing it.

 

[actionsub]

I would suggest that itineracy helps to prevent corruption since pastors aren't just moving to where the money is and staying there once they have the largest and richest congregations possible. Because UMC pastors are appointed by the Bishop/DS, pastors also aren't financially controlled by their congregations and threatened with being fired by them if he or she preaches an unpopular sermon topic or steps out of line in some way (in their view). Sometimes pastors need to make unpopular decisions if an unhealthy church is going to become a healthy church, but they often get fired before it can happen. The UMC itineracy system can also help prevent a congregation and/or pastor from becoming complacent and overly-comfortable.

However, if a pastor should manage to build a church to the point where it is one of the largest/richest possible, then that preacher will be like a tree planted by the water, the bishop will not move such a pastor. We've got pastors in our conference that have literally been at an appointment for decades.

 

[actionsub]

In that case you would have to go to a United Methodist seminary and take the Basic Graduate Courses which is about 20-30 credit hours. After that there is a two year probationary period where you are appointed to a church and then after an interview with the BOOM and a vote by the Annual Conference you can become ordained.

It's not anywhere near that many credit hours if one already has an M.Div., it's more like seven or eight grad hours in history, polity, and doctrine. And not necessarily a UM seminary, just one approved by the University Senate. We have a number of Elders in this conference who took their UM courses at a UCC seminary.

 

[circuitrider]

However, if a pastor should manage to build a church to the point where it is one of the largest/richest possible, then that preacher will be like a tree planted by the water, the bishop will not move such a pastor. We've got pastors in our conference that have literally been at an appointment for decades.

If the Bishop deems that such a pastor and church through their partnership together are leading a lot of people to faith in Christ, as far as I'm concerned the Bishop may be wise not to move them just for the sake of moving them.

Our previous Bishop always emphasized the importance of "missional appointments." Appointments that fulfill the mission of the church, not that follow seniority, or follow a particular pattern of a certain number of years. But, appointments that help the church fulfill its mission of sharing the gospel.

If the Bishop thinks moving me every few years fulfills that or if she thinks that keeping me where I am fulfills that then I'm happy with either decision.

 

[actionsub]

If the Bishop deems that such a pastor and church through their partnership together are leading a lot of people to faith in Christ, as far as I'm concerned the Bishop may be wise not to move them just for the sake of moving them.

Our previous Bishop always emphasized the importance of "missional appointments." Appointments that fulfill the mission of the church, not that follow seniority, or follow a particular pattern of a certain number of years. But, appointments that help the church fulfill its mission of sharing the gospel.

If the Bishop thinks moving me every few years fulfills that or if she thinks that keeping me where I am fulfills that then I'm happy with either decision.

My understanding of the appointment system was that the over-riding function was to be missional and keep the church's mission moving forward.

 

[circuitrider]

My understanding of the appointment system was that the over-riding function was to be missional and keep the church's mission moving forward.

Indeed it is. And sometimes being missional may mean leaving the same pastor one place for 20 year or moving him/her in 2 years.

Methodist pastors often pray this prayer from the Wesley Covenant service.

I am no longer my own, but thine.
Put me to what thou wilt, rank me with whom thou wilt.
Put me to doing, put me to suffering.
Let me be employed for thee or laid aside for thee,
exalted for thee or brought low for thee.
Let me be full, let me be empty.
Let me have all things, let me have nothing.
I freely and heartily yield all things to thy pleasure and disposal.
And now, O glorious and blessed God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
thou art mine, and I am thine.
So be it.
And the covenant which I have made on earth,
let it be ratified in heaven.
Amen.