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The United Methodist Schism

Discussion in 'Wesley's Parish - Methodist/ Nazarene' started by dreadnought, Apr 19, 2018.

  1. vivian gallant

    vivian gallant New Member

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    Very true! Our Methodist church has been an amazing contributor to our local community and beyond. However, the pride derived by our works may tempt us to play god, may it not? And because we want to love people so much, we are not calling out their sin. This goes beyond sexuality differences.
     
  2. actionsub

    actionsub Mike, he's just this guy, you know?

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    The real issue at hand is Scriptural interpretation, or as was famously said by a serpent somewhere, "Did God really say...?" The traditionalists hold that the so-called "clobber passages" should be taken as originally intended; progressives and centrists say perhaps we need to look at them as a product of the times and no longer apply.

    Appealing to "signs and wonders" proving that such has changed, as your pastor has done, is really grasping at straws. I don't mind a pastor pulling a Martin Luther and saying "Here I stand, I can do no other...", that I can respect. Granted, in our annual conference, that can and has gotten pastors fired, but I can respect them having the courage of their convictions. "God has given us a miracle sign" suggests the pastor has deeper opposition in your church, and is trying to use God as a trump card.
     
  3. actionsub

    actionsub Mike, he's just this guy, you know?

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    Since we're now on the other side of GC 2019, what I'm seeing happening is that the progressives and centrists are now trying to form a united front going into 2020, with the endgame being instead that a "Gracious Exit" be provided for the traditionalists, according to various press releases and news reports.

    Either way, the marriage is over, the UMC is now just negotiating the terms of the settlement and who gets the kids.
     
  4. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    What both sides forget is that Paul told us that we were to be transformed from sinful flesh into the likeness of the SON.

    God loves us just as we are But He loves us TOO MUCH to leave us where we are.

    Romans 12:2
    And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

    2 Corinthians 3:18
    But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

    Philippians 3:21
    who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
     
  5. actionsub

    actionsub Mike, he's just this guy, you know?

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    No disagreement there! That's the "sanctification" that we used to preach.
     
  6. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Soldier For Christ

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    The UMC is going to die well let's be honest, it's been dying for the past 50 years. So sad to see what has become of a once great move of God. Aww well onto the new wineskin I say.....
     
  7. vivian gallant

    vivian gallant New Member

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  8. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Soldier For Christ

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    Vivian relax, I am talking about at the denominational level the United Methodist Church is going to die which has been a long time coming and I'm not sorry. This will be an excellent opportunity for local churches though because they won't have to put up with all of the bureaucracy. I honestly would like to see the UMC local churches become more autonomous with a loose affiliation to each other.
     
  9. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe umc will just split up and multiply, which is not the same as dying.
     
  10. Methodized

    Methodized God is love and in God there is no darkness. Supporter

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    The money from that would come from the 2/3 of the US Methodists who voted for a more inclusive church. The US pays for 97% of the UMC. While those outside the US have more votes, most of the funding is here.
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    and what of the bishops?
     
  12. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    I suppose that could be taken care of by just renaming to the Autonomously United Methodist Baptist Church (AUMBC) :)
     
  13. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I'm pretty sure Methodists don't want to become Baptists. What they want is for the US church to have the same degree of partial autonomy as the church in Africa and other areas outside the US. The requirements of the UMC mission in the US are (in the opinion of representatives of the annual conferences) different in the US and other places. That's why the central conferences (those outside the US) were given the freedom to adjust the discipline. When that was done, the same thing should have been done for the US, but I'd guess that no one anticipated that the non-US church would become such a large fraction, or that they would react the way they have.

    Moderates and liberals had not prepared for the 2019 GA. They're now beginning to look at the implications. Two possibilities are being pursued: a split, and staying.

    It's not clear what staying will mean, but a recent actions by Baltimore-Washington suggest that a number of conferences are simply going to ignore the Traditional Plan. In the PCUSA, higher-level bodies can if they feel it appropriate, take over and change the actions of lower ones. My reading of the UMC constitution is that this is not possible in the UMC. If 2/3 of the annual conferences consider the One Church plan to be in effect in the US, it may be in effect.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  14. actionsub

    actionsub Mike, he's just this guy, you know?

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    That's what I'm hearing from both sides now. The progressives are saying "takeover"; the traditionalists are saying, "why don't we divorce as amicably as possible?"
    Hopefully, what we get is mitosis instead of amputation.
     
  15. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF Supporter

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    Christians outside the US/UK/Canada/Australia/NZ tend to evangelise and to have kids, which means they're growing. They also tend to be conservative, which is affecting both Methodists and Anglicans internationally.

    It's also affecting the Uniting Church in Australia; Methodist immigrants see it as the best fit for them, which means that they bolster the conservative wing of the Uniting Church.
     
  16. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    One other thing happened at the 2019 GA. Conservatives out-organized liberals. WCA had planned what to do carefully, had lobbied African delegates heavily, had gotten delegates elected. This wasn't done in secret, but there was no corresponding effort by anyone else.

    That's changed. Delegate elections for 2020 are already happening. Liberal delegates are being elected. Annual conferences are choosing to act as if One Church had passed. I don't think there's any realistic chance to reverse the direction of the denomination, but I think it's likely to affect the terms of the split.

    Here's an answering analysis from a conservative leader: Progress Report on Annual Conference Actions. He recognizes that even moderates want progressives to be free to accept gays. But I agree with him that even a resurgence of moderates and progressives together isn't enough to reverse the changes.
     
  17. AdamClarke

    AdamClarke Independent Methodist

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    One can be both concerned about the current situation that conservative Methodists are facing, which is shaking them to the core, and be compassionate to those who wish to see a change towards being more inclusive. I honestly see no easy answer and fear that the denomination will split towards the inclusive side and conservatives will lose material and spiritual ground which will be heartbreaking. I offer my prayers for you my brethren. Those few of us who are Methodists but not part of the UMC (I pastor a small house church) pray often for a peaceful resolution for you.
     
  18. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Split yes, but as long as International delegates vote with US conservatives, it's not going to be "towards the inclusive side." The institution will remain with the conservatives. I also wonder whether the majority of churches and conferences will really leave, particularly as it's likely to be fairly difficult for them.

    I suspect that there will be a liberal splinter that's a minority, with the remainder containing a lot of disguntled people. I don't think the future for either half of the UMC in the US is bright in such a situation.

    I predict that in the long run the WCA will not want to be part of this, and will leave. I haven't detected in their communications any real commitment to the UMC as an institution.
     
  19. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    There are a LOT of those. Current memberships:

    Wesleyan Church 516,203 (231,339 in North America)
    Free Methodist 1,000,000 (77,000 in the United States)
    Church of Nazarene 2,471,553
    A.M.E 2.5 - 3.5 million
    A.M.E.Z. 1.4 million


    Yes I know that even put together they do not equal the size of the UMC which is 12,7 million world wide. (6.8 mil in the US)

    But still sizable enough.
     
  20. A Shield of Turquoise

    A Shield of Turquoise New Member

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    It seems that the WCA had some intention of leaving but then discovered what a tangled web of difficulties they would have to move through to do it (and hold on to property, pensions, etc.) Now the progressives who also talked loudly of splitting are discovering the same. Which isn't to say that some people won't do it, but it's harder than they imagined so fewer will probably be willing to face it.
     
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