James: "The Effectual, Fervent Prayer of the Righteous Man..."

[Oncedeceived]

From my estimation, Christianity is as follows...

-We are all sinners. Good works does not get one into heaven.
- Belief is required. If you do not believe, you have no chance.
- Belief, in and of itself is not enough, as Satan believed.

So the rest is to grovel, by way of asking for forgiveness...

Thoughts?

I think I'll answer this too if Hammster doesn't mind. The only requirement is to ACCEPT the free gift of Salvation by Jesus Christ. We are all sinners, but our sins are forgiven. Belief is only necessary to ACCEPT Salvation by Jesus Christ. If you don't ACCEPT the free gift of Salvation by Jesus Christ then you have no chance. Asking for forgiveness is only acceptable if one is to ACCEPT the Salvation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Par5]

He was righteous, but he wasn't really "righteous."

First off, in doing hermenetics, let's identify WHERE in the Bible it states that Lot was "righteous." And where do we find this statement that you've so aptly spotted, Par5? I mean, if you're going to try to refer to something in the Bible, I'd expect you to cite your reference.

Secondly, what are the contexts in which we find the qualification of Lot's "righteousness"? In what way is he said to be righteous ... ?

2 Peter 2 verses 7&8
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Can you explain?

Thanks.

The OP: The effectual, fervent prayer of the righteous man availeth little.

You: God is under no obligation to save anyone... It’s only by His grace that anyone is ever saved at all from anything.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

2 Peter 2 verses 7&8
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

Right, so from the context of what the writer of 2 Peter is saying, what is the character trait that qualifies Lot as a "righteous" person? Is it the same thing and in identical context which James seems to identify in the passage that is under investigation in this particular OP thread? When I compare Peter to James, I don't think it they're talking about quite the same thing.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I think I'll answer this too if Hammster doesn't mind. The only requirement is to ACCEPT the free gift of Salvation by Jesus Christ. We are all sinners, but our sins are forgiven. Belief is only necessary to ACCEPT Salvation by Jesus Christ. If you don't ACCEPT the free gift of Salvation by Jesus Christ then you have no chance. Asking for forgiveness is only acceptable if one is to ACCEPT the Salvation of Jesus Christ.

How's it a free gift if you're supposed to give your life to Jesus and worship him for all eternity?

 

[cvanwey]

I think I'll answer this too if Hammster doesn't mind. The only requirement is to ACCEPT the free gift of Salvation by Jesus Christ. We are all sinners, but our sins are forgiven. Belief is only necessary to ACCEPT Salvation by Jesus Christ. If you don't ACCEPT the free gift of Salvation by Jesus Christ then you have no chance. Asking for forgiveness is only acceptable if one is to ACCEPT the Salvation of Jesus Christ.

Then it's two fold...

You must FIRST think it exists as such....

Then you can decide whether or not to ACCEPT the 'free gift.'

You cannot have the later w/o the former.

In my case, I've studied the 'resurrection' quite extensively, and find the claim/assertion lacking in nature/proof. So for me, w/o the former, the later becomes mute.

And like I stated many posts prior, belief is first required.

However, I find it unsettling that a claimed omnibenevolent being would eternally damn an individual for unsuccessfully or 'correctly' evaluating the given 'evidence' for such a claim. And specifically as such, burning forever, (due to lack in comprehension), appears unjust in nature... Because as you so eloquently capitalized, w/o ACCEPTING such a proposition, you are doomed.

 

[Hammster]

The OP: The effectual, fervent prayer of the righteous man availeth little.

You: God is under no obligation to save anyone... It’s only by His grace that anyone is ever saved at all from anything.

I’m not trying to be obtuse, but I don’t see how this explains anything.

 

[Hammster]

How's it a free gift if you're supposed to give your life to Jesus and worship him for all eternity?

You don’t have to.

 

[Hammster]

I this this passage is relevant to the discussion.

1 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." - Luke 13:1-5

 

[Steve Petersen]

You don’t have to.

Well according to your theology, if you don't accept it then you fry forever. The ultimate coercion.

 

[Hammster]

Well according to your theology, if you don't accept it then you fry forever. The ultimate coercion.

Here are the quotes

How's it a free gift if you're supposed to give your life to Jesus and worship him for all eternity?

You don’t have to.

How does my answer lead you to this conclusion?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I’m not trying to be obtuse, but I don’t see how this explains anything.

The OP said that intercessory prayer does nothing. Just ask the Holocaust victims, he said.

You replied that the Holocaust victims, being Jews, were unbelievers and that this could have been the reason their prayers were unanswered.

I chimed in, saying that we would statistically expect that some of the Jews who died in concentration camps were Christian, and further, that Hitler targeted not only Jews but also gypsies and "useless eaters." So now it's clear that some Christians undoubtedly died in concentration camps and the OP was unchallenged at this point.

You replied by saying that sometimes God answers prayer with "no." I went on an "if I were God" rant and you then said that God is under no obligation to help us, that we all deserve terrible things, and that only by God's grace are we saved.

I'll first point out that nowhere are you saying that God is more likely to help those who pray than those who don't. The closest you came was saying that God doesn't listen to prayer coming from the wrong religions. And even if you are in the right religion, it's still the case that sometimes God says no and that we all deserve eternal torment after all, so we shouldn't be surprised if our prayers don't change a bad situation. That's inadvertently siding with the OP, although the OP is of course approaching from a different angle. Basically, the OP is saying that prayer does nothing, and you're saying we shouldn't expect prayer to do anything. So I see you as inadvertently agreeing with the OP.

As an addendum, I realized, after I lost my faith, that Christians will swear up and down that prayer works because any possible outcome can be explained. Something good? It was God! Something bad? God is teaching us a lesson. Prayer can help you achieve a goal because it calms you down and forces you to focus on your goal. That's the best way to achieve it. Lost your keys? Panic is not the best way to go. Calmly focusing on your problem gives you the best chances. No God requried. So in some sense prayer can help you, but praying for something that is totally beyond your control is no different from leaving it completely to chance.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You don’t have to.

So I can accept the free gift of salvation and then proceed to live my life the way I want to, and when I get to heaven I'll never have to bow down before Jesus?

 

[cvanwey]

Even further still, there still exists one major step before even accepting/rejecting such a proposition.

Belief.

And since belief is not a choice, there you go.

 

[Hammster]

The OP said that intercessory prayer does nothing. Just ask the Holocaust victims, he said.

You replied that the Holocaust victims, being Jews, were unbelievers and that this could have been the reason their prayers were unanswered.

I chimed in, saying that we would statistically expect that some of the Jews who died in concentration camps were Christian, and further, that Hitler targeted not only Jews but also gypsies and "useless eaters." So now it's clear that some Christians undoubtedly died in concentration camps and the OP was unchallenged at this point.

You replied by saying that sometimes God answers prayer with "no." I went on an "if I were God" rant and you then said that God is under no obligation to help us, that we all deserve terrible things, and that only by God's grace are we saved.

I'll first point out that nowhere are you saying that God is more likely to help those who pray than those who don't. The closest you came was saying that God doesn't listen to prayer coming from the wrong religions. And even if you are in the right religion, it's still the case that sometimes God says no and that we all deserve eternal torment after all, so we shouldn't be surprised if our prayers don't change a bad situation. That's inadvertently siding with the OP, although the OP is of course approaching from a different angle. Basically, the OP is saying that prayer does nothing, and you're saying we shouldn't expect prayer to do anything. So I see you as inadvertently agreeing with the OP.

As an addendum, I realized, after I lost my faith, that Christians will swear up and down that prayer works because any possible outcome can be explained. Something good? It was God! Something bad? God is teaching us a lesson. Prayer can help you achieve a goal because it calms you down and forces you to focus on your goal. That's the best way to achieve it. Lost your keys? Panic is not the best way to go. Calmly focusing on your problem gives you the best chances. No God requried. So in some sense prayer can help you, but praying for something that is totally beyond your control is no different from leaving it completely to chance.

If the main reason for prayer was to get stuff, then you’d probably have a point. And from your position, maybe you do. But I don’t think that’s the main reason.

“Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬


Nowhere does it say that you get everything you ask for.

 

[Hammster]

So I can accept the free gift of salvation and then proceed to live my life the way I want to, and when I get to heaven I'll never have to bow down before Jesus?

First, where does it say we “accept a free gift of salvation”?

 

[Hammster]

Even further still, there still exists one major step before even accepting/rejecting such a proposition.

Belief.

And since belief is not a choice, there you go.

Exactly. It’s not a choice.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

If the main reason for prayer was to get stuff, then you’d probably have a point. And from your position, maybe you do. But I don’t think that’s the main reason.

“Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭NASB‬‬


Nowhere does it say that you get everything you ask for.

There isn't much difference between escaping a concentration camp and being healed of a serious health issue, so I don't think the passage is being taken out of context. And we should reasonably agree that lots of Christians died in the Holocaust. Certainly a lot of Christian ally soldiers died.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

First, where does it say we “accept a free gift of salvation”?

It? Meaning the Bible? Nowhere that I know of. I was responding to Oncedeceived in post 62 where she made that claim repeatedly in a conversation with someone else. I jumped in because I'm always annoyed by that phrase. Christ's gift isn't free.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Here are the quotes


↑Nihilist Virus:
How's it a free gift if you're supposed to give your life to Jesus and worship him for all eternity?


↑Hammster:
You don’t have to.


How does my answer lead you to this conclusion?

That's exactly what coercion is: accept an offer or suffer consequences. Resisting coercion leads to consequences. So the gospel message by its fundamental nature is coercive.