Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[ClementofA]

The Early Church Fathers on Hell

There's no endless punishment here:

Epistle of Barnabas' (70-135 AD)
15:7-8 Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world.

Clement of Rome (d. 99 AD)
1 Clem 7:4 Let us fix our eyes on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is unto His Father, because being shed for our salvation it won for the whole world the grace of repentance.
1 Clem 19:2b and let us look steadfastly unto the Father and Maker of the whole world, and cleave unto His splendid and excellent gifts of peace and benefits.
1 Clem 19:3 Let us behold Him in our mind, and let us look with the eyes of our soul unto His long-suffering will. Let us note how free from anger He is towards all His creatures.
1 Clem 27:2 He that commanded not to lie, much more shall He Himself not lie: for nothing is impossible with God save to lie.
1 Clem 29:3 And in another place He saith, Behold, the Lord taketh for Himself a nation out of the midst of the nations, as a man taketh the first fruits of his threshing floor; and the holy of holies shall come forth from that nation.
1 Clem 36:4 but of His Son the Master said thus, Thou art My Son, I this day have begotten thee. Ask of Me, and I will give Thee the Gentiles for Thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Thy possession.
1 Clem 52:1 The Master, brethren, hath need of nothing at all. He desireth not anything of any man, save to confess unto Him.
1 Clem 53:4 And Moses said; Nay, not so, Lord Forgive this people their sin, or blot me also out of the book of the living.
1 Clem 53:5 O mighty love! O unsurpassable perfection! The servant is bold with his Master; he asketh forgiveness for the multitude, or he demandeth that himself also be blotted out with them.
1 Clem 54:1 Who therefore is noble among you? Who is compassionate? Who is fulfilled with love?
1 Clem 56:1 Therefore let us also make intercession for them that are in any transgression, that forbearance and humility may be given them, to the end that they may yield not unto us, but unto the will of God. For so shall the compassionate remembrance of them with God and the saints be fruitful unto them, and perfect.
1 Clem 59:4 We beseech Thee, Lord and Master, to be our help and succor. Save those among us who are in tribulation; have mercy on the lowly; lift up the fallen; show Thyself unto the needy; heal the ungodly; convert the wanderers of Thy people; feed the hungry; release our prisoners; raise up the weak; comfort the fainthearted. Let all the Gentiles know that Thou art the God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son, and we are Thy people and the sheep of Thy pasture.

Sibylline Oracles (80-195 AD)
And God, immortal and omnipotent, will grant another gift to these pious
persons: when they will ask him, he will grant them to save the human beings
from the fierce fire, and from the otherworldly [αἰώνιος] gnashing of teeth, and
will do so after pulling them out of the unquenchable flame and removing
them [ἀπὸ φλογὸς ἀκαμάτοιο ἄλοσ’ ἀποστήσας], destining them, for the sake
of his own elect, to the other life, that of the world to come, for immortals
[ζωὴν ἑτέραν καὶ αἰώνιον ἀθανάτοισιν], in the Elysian Fields, where there are the
long waves of the Acherusian Lake, imperishable, which has a deep bed.
(2,330–338)

Apocalypse of Peter (c. 100-150 AD)
Then I will grant to my called and elect ones whomsoever they request from me, out of the punishment. And I will give them [i.e. those for whom the elect pray] a fine baptism in salvation from the Acherousian Lake (which is, they say, in the Elysian field), a portion of righteousness with my holy ones (ApPet 14:1, translating the text as corrected by M. R. James and confirmed by SibOr 2:330-338).

Bardaisan of Edessa (154–222 AD)

"But whenever God likes, everything can be, with no obstacle at all. In fact,
there is nothing that can impede that great and holy will. For, even those
who are convinced to resist God, do not resist by their force, but they are
in evil and error, and this can be only for a short time, because God is kind
and gentle, and allows all natures to remain in the state in which they are,
and to govern themselves by their own will, but at the same time they are
conditioned by the things that are done and the plans that have been conceived
[sc. by God] in order to help them. For this order and this government that have
been given [sc. by God], and the association of one with another, damps the
natures’ force, so that they cannot be either completely harmful or completely
harmed, as they were harmful and harmed before the creation of the world.
And there will come a time when even this capacity for harm that remains in
them will be brought to an end by the instruction that will obtain in a different
arrangement of things: and, once that new world will be constituted, all evil
movements will cease, all rebellions will come to an end, and the fools will be
persuaded, and the lacks will be filled, and there will be safety and peace, as a
gift of the Lord of all natures." (Laws of Countries, 608–611 Nau)

Clement of Alexandria (150-215) “And not only for our sins,'-that is for those of the faithful,-is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, 'but also for the whole world.' He, indeed, saves all; but some He saves, converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily He saves with dignity of honour; so 'that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;' that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life." (Fragments, 1:3, c. 2, v. 2)

Origen (c. 184 - c. 253) "So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him 'all,' and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is 'all in all.' And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be 'all in all'" — De Prinicipiis 3.6.3

Didymus the Blind of Alexandria (310/13 ca.–395/8 AD)
This is said about rational creatures [τῶν λογικῶν]. Since, among all of them, there are also some who have become wicked, know how these will have a restoration [κατάστασιν] once they have arrived in the hands of the Son, obviously after rejecting the evilness [κακίαν] that they had, and assuming virtue [ἀρετήν]. For one should not pay attention to those who propound sophisms, claiming that only those rational beings who have sanctity [ἁγιότητα] are called. [In Comm. in Io., fr. 2]

It is impossible that wood, grass, and straw disappear in such a way as not to exist any more, but sinners will disappear insofar as they are grass and so on. Indeed, this fire of the corrective punishment is not active against the substance, but against habits and qualities [sc. bad habits and qualities]. For this fire consumes, not creatures, but certain conditions and certain habits. [Comm. in Ps. 20–21 col. 21,15]

“Gregory of Nyssa (A.D. 330-394)
A certain deception was indeed practised upon the Evil one, by concealing the Divine nature within the human; but for the latter, as himself a deceiver, it was only a just recompense that he should be deceived himself: the great adversary must himself at last find that what has been done is just and salutary, when he also shall experience the benefit of the Incarnation. He, as well as humanity, will be purged.” (The Great Catechism, 26, newadvent.org/fathers/2908.htm)”


"the originator of evil himself will be healed” (Catechetical Orations 26. The Catechetical Oration of Gregory of Nyssa. Edited by James H. Srawley. Cambridge, 1903, p. 101).

‘For it is evident that God will, in truth, be ‘in all’ then when there shall be no evil seen in anything. … When every created being is at harmony with itself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body, then shall the body of Christ be subject to the Father. … Now the body of Christ, as I have said often before, is the whole of humanity’ (Orat. in I Cor. xv.28).

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
Universalism...First 500 Years

 

[ClementofA]

Sin against an eternal God rightly demands eternal damnation. A person who no longer exists is no longer damned.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[Sam81]

No. God is just. Sin against an eternal God demands eternal consequences. God gave up His only begotten Son for the purpose of saving all who believe.

 

[ClementofA]

Here is the complete definition of polus/many from BDAG. "All" is not one of the definitions.

​

Irrelevant. The word "all" in Rom.5:18 does not refer to 100% of "all" that exists in the universe or even 100% of the human race, but refers to "many" of the humans of the human race. And verse 19 speaks of "many":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

And following are the questions i've posted to you several times recently which you have yet to answer. Why is that?

How "many" humans does the "all" of v.18a & v.18b include, Der Alter? All of them (as in 100%), or "many" of them (as in less than 100%)? Do you think that "all" in v.18 refers to 100% of humanity or "many" of humanity?

Does "all" in verse 18 include Jesus?
Does "all" in verse 18 includes unborn babies?
Does "all" in verse 18 exclude any other humans?

Does "all" in v.18a refer to the exact same "many" humans as "all" in v.18b?

Does "all" in v.18a include exactly the same number of (& the very same) "many" humans as "many" in v.19a? Does "all" (v.18a) equal "many" (v.19a)?

Does "all" in "all have sinned & come short of the glory of God" (Rom.3:23) include 100% of humans, including Jesus & babies, or "many" humans?

Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).​

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

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[Sam81]

You are misusing scripture and cherry picking. I know you love your sin but you must understand that hell is real. It's physical and it's forever. Repent.

 

[Sam81]

The bible says reject a heretic after admonishing 3 times. This guy is clearly pushing an agenda. Shake the dust off your feet.

 

[Hillsage]

What about these? Bias again?

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

I should certainly hope that 'that purgative cleansing saving fire' would never go out because;
HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Now answer me this; How can God be eternally consuming something that's never consumed, but just eternally tortured? Those of your opinion don't believe in the noun punishment. They believe in a verb eternal punishing. And that's a term which, if memory serves me, I never found in scripture. Can you?

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

An interesting verse indeed. First off, read it in a better translation;
YLT
REV 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Nothing here saying "eternity".
I made an edit after posting more. I deleted because I couldn't find my reference source. I will look again, at the office tomorrow. But I would like to add this concerning the Greek word translated as "torment". Sounds pretty horrible, until you see how that Greek word is translated elsewhere.

In the New Testament the same word is used of one “sick of the palsy, grievously tormented (Matt. 8:6). It is used of the disciples' ship in Galilee, and is translated “tossed with waves” (Matt. 14:24). It is translated as the word “toiling at the oars” in Mark 6:48. It is translated as the word “vexed'” in speaking of Lot (2Pet. 2:8). It is translated to a word that means “birth-pains” (Rev. 12:2). In the other Scriptures it is translated into the word “torment” or “tormented.”

The original idea of the verb is “to put to the test by rubbing with a touchstone.” IOW to test some metal that looked like gold to find whether it was real or not. Then it means “to question by applying some test or torture to discover whether true or not.” It also signifies “to torture in order to extort a confession.” The meaning and usage of this word harmonizes with the idea of divine purification and the torment which is the test to find whether there has been any change or not in the sufferer. Through the hidden, loving purpose of God, every pang of torment will be a birth pang; and the grace of God will not be absent--and as He says, “Behold, I am making all things new” (literal). He will leave no spot in the whole universe unrenewed. “Every knee shall bow and every tongue . . . confess” (Phil. 2:10,11, literal).

 

[ClementofA]

The only reason I might not agree with your "majority Christian view" is based upon the following;

1CO 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

There's just too much immaturity in today's church to receive a wisdom that's requiring a maturity level that seems so lacking IMO. A maturity which IMO must be referring to a 'spiritual maturity', as opposed to the maturity of the religious spirit's theologies which has influenced and bound so many for so many centuries.

I do hope you're right Clement. But to bring it to pass, I believe there is also something else needed. And that is the manifested outpouring from the Holy Spirit, 'of the likes' which the world has not seen and experienced since the Jesus movement of the 70's. Personally I do believe that 'that' is what it is going to take to bind the spirit which has dominated so many of the minds of believers today. They are simply bound to the theological anchors of the dark age's church, from long ago.

1 Corinthians was written to the church in Corinth, including the immature ones there, as per chapter 3. In fact Paul makes it sound like the church was infested with such:

3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

Yet this same letter shares universalism (1 Cor.15) with these immature ones.

IMO, there are immature ones who grasp universalism & mature ones who don't. And vica versa. Those who don't it's largely because they've never seriously considered the topic (i.e. they're ignorant/uninformed) and/or they've been indoctrinated otherwise. It's not rocket science to see it in passages like Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28, etc. Many commentators who reject it admit it seems to be taught in a number of Scriptures. If people understood how aion/ios has been mistranslated, the objections of many would vanish. They're just not privy to that info, yet.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My Biblical arguments are all over the forum in 3000+ posts. I'm still waiting for anyone to refute - anything - they say. Where are yours so I can tell you where you've "missed it"?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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Questions Without Answers

If you just want to cut and paste other's arguments, there is no point in dicussing this with you. One needs the others as they are the ones presenting the position.

 

[Sam81]

He is just another antichrist who loves himself and seeks whom he might ensnare into his lies.

 

[ClementofA]

If you just want to cut and paste other's arguments, there is no point in dicussing this with you.

If dinosaurs were bed bugs...but they're not. If you think everything i post is "cut and paste other's arguments", you're lost.

Are you able to discern between my arguments & others?

Are you unable to discuss, comment on or refute any of it?

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Saint Steven]

A more literal accurate translation says:

Mk.9:43 And if your hand should cause you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life crippled, than having two hands to go away into Gehenna, into the fire not quenched.

Where does that or any other Scripture say anyone stays in Gehenna fire & never leaves & are tortured without end? Nothing there says tortures are endless. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

Bible Threatening Explained

Nothing there says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).

Unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

A key to Universalism


"Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"

"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24)."

"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life." (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna] until you have paid up the last cent. The word - until - unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

It seems to me that your position is a product of rational thought and human reasoning. Historically, we have always known (believed) that hell is sternal. Wishful thinking is to say otherwise. And the things you are pointing are being interpreted from a current point of view. What did these words mean to the original hearers?

You also might want to consider the blasphemous things you are saying about God, on the off-chance that you are wrong.

 

[Saint Steven]

That verse uses a plural form of the Greek word, aion, that literally means "age" or "eon", as translated literally by literal Bible versions:

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name."

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Greek-English Interlinear says "ages of ages" here:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Heb. 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

To call something an "age", you need some bookends, so to speak. Something to mark the beginning and the end. And in the case of ages upon ages, several markers.

What do you anticipate in this regard? What will mark the ends and beginning of these ages? We can already see some in the Bible. Some more assumed than others. We have the period of time before grace was introduced. Christ preached to those in the grave. We look ahead to the Millennium where Satan will be imprisoned and released. These are notable markers for ages.

 

[Saint Steven]

I should certainly hope that 'that purgative cleansing saving fire' would never go out because;
HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Now answer me this; How can God be eternally consuming something that's never consumed, but just eternally tortured? Those of your opinion don't believe in the noun punishment. They believe in a verb eternal punishing. And that's a term which, if memory serves me, I never found in scripture. Can you?



An interesting verse indeed. First off, read it in a better translation;
YLT
REV 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Nothing here saying "eternity".
I made an edit after posting more. I deleted because I couldn't find my reference source. I will look again, at the office tomorrow. But I would like to add this concerning the Greek word translated as "torment". Sounds pretty horrible, until you see how that Greek word is translated elsewhere.

In the New Testament the same word is used of one “sick of the palsy, grievously tormented (Matt. 8:6). It is used of the disciples' ship in Galilee, and is translated “tossed with waves” (Matt. 14:24). It is translated as the word “toiling at the oars” in Mark 6:48. It is translated as the word “vexed'” in speaking of Lot (2Pet. 2:8). It is translated to a word that means “birth-pains” (Rev. 12:2). In the other Scriptures it is translated into the word “torment” or “tormented.”

The original idea of the verb is “to put to the test by rubbing with a touchstone.” IOW to test some metal that looked like gold to find whether it was real or not. Then it means “to question by applying some test or torture to discover whether true or not.” It also signifies “to torture in order to extort a confession.” The meaning and usage of this word harmonizes with the idea of divine purification and the torment which is the test to find whether there has been any change or not in the sufferer. Through the hidden, loving purpose of God, every pang of torment will be a birth pang; and the grace of God will not be absent--and as He says, “Behold, I am making all things new” (literal). He will leave no spot in the whole universe unrenewed. “Every knee shall bow and every tongue . . . confess” (Phil. 2:10,11, literal).

Again, you are reasoning in earthly terms about what can and cannot be happening in the spiritual realm. As we saw in Isaiah, when a hot coal was put to his lips with no indication of a burn, that things probably operate differently there. A different or expanded set of physics, if you will. A "world" (for lack of a better term) not constrained by time or material.

Perhaps this struggle to understand these things that we are engaged in here has something to do with the utter lack of the proper words to explain the unexplainable. At term that translates as eternal from an ancient term "ages to ages" may have been the best they could do with it.

Here's the flip side of this. Which you guys may not have even considered. The same word used to define "eternal" death is also used to define "eternal" life. Would you be so quick to diminish our eternal life in Christ with your same arguments? Here are the scriptures in question. The exact same NT Greek word is used. Are you not forced to apply the same definition to the same word?

John 12:50
I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

 

[Saint Steven]

In an effort to diminish "eternal" punishment, you are also diminishing "eternal" life. Because the exact same NT Greek word is used to describe both.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Pneuma3]

No. God is just. Sin against an eternal God demands eternal consequences. God gave up His only begotten Son for the purpose of saving all who believe.

Is that right, guess we all are going to suffer eternal consequences.

 

[Pneuma3]

You also might want to consider the blasphemous things you are saying about God, on the off-chance that you are wrong.

saying God will eternally torment people in a fire, is as close to blaspheme as anything I have ever witnessed.

 

[Pneuma3]

In an effort to diminish "eternal" punishment, you are also diminishing "eternal" life. Because the exact same NT Greek word is used to describe both.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

MUCH MORE then aionios life


Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.


They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.


But we need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.


Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.


The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.


Habakkuk 3:6

6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.


The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.


Now the only way for those who believe olam means eternal can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence.



Psalm 41:13

13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.


Psalm 90:1-2

1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.


Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.

If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.


So the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.


But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.

I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.


Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.


Psalm 90:1-2

1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.


We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.


The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.


The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.


Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.


Hebrews 7:16

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.


Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction

From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end


Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?


What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.


Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.


1 Peter 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable

Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end


Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial

Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end


Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?


These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.


If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.


Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.


Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.


Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.

 

[Saint Steven]

saying God will eternally torment people in a fire, is as close to blaspheme as anything I have ever witnessed.

What if it is true? This is a disputable matter. On what basis can you claim absolute truth in your theories?

 

[Pneuma3]

What if it is true? This is a disputable matter. On what basis can you claim absolute truth in your theories?

on the unconditional love of God the Father of all mercy