Labeling harmless actions/things/activities as immoral.

[Rajni]

Also I use the KJV which says Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? Rather than it is a dishonour to him. Maybe it's the same but I think it's slightly different

Frankly, if nature has anything to say about it, hair length isn't an issue one way or the other. Otherwise, men's hair would not grow past a certain point. Adding shame into the equation is, imo, strictly a man-made thing.

 

[Silmarien]

After all, Jesus left a really short list...love God with all your heart and mind and love others like you love yourself. There isn't much need for weekly meetings once you get those two things down.

Fellowship and Eucharist.

Though there are some really thought-provoking things that can come up in a sermon as well. My favorite involving ethical concerns was actually at a Unitarian Universalist church (i.e., the Church of Secular Humanism). It was given by a UU army chaplain who had gotten himself in trouble for opposing drones during the Obama Administration, setting off an intriguing legal battle between church and state that almost nobody actually heard about. So here he was, preaching to a group of secular humanists about conflicts of conscience and holding to one's values even where it would be convenient to do otherwise.

Point being, there's always something to talk about on Sunday. Always.

 

[Dansiph]

Frankly, if nature has anything to say about it, hair length isn't an issue one way or the other. Otherwise, men's hair would not grow past a certain point. Adding shame into the equation is, imo, strictly a man-made thing.

it could be referring to many things such as the inclination for most men to have short hair, the more physical and natural (nature) role of men, meaning work, requiring shorter hair in general or it could be something else. I'm not a Pastor but I believe the Bible instructs men not to have long hair. I wasn't in the military but a high percentage of militaries require men to have short hair for solid reasons.

This might be worth a read: BIBLE VERSES ABOUT LONG HAIR

 

[zephcom]

Fellowship and Eucharist.

Though there are some really thought-provoking things that can come up in a sermon as well. My favorite involving ethical concerns was actually at a Unitarian Universalist church (i.e., the Church of Secular Humanism). It was given by a UU army chaplain who had gotten himself in trouble for opposing drones during the Obama Administration, setting off an intriguing legal battle between church and state that almost nobody actually heard about. So here he was, preaching to a group of secular humanists about conflicts of conscience and holding to one's values even where it would be convenient to do otherwise.

Point being, there's always something to talk about on Sunday. Always.

That would probably be covered by Jesus' second commandment, huh? If you wouldn't like someone else flying armed drones over your house and killing people, maybe you shouldn't be doing it to others.

Like I said, once one gets those two things from Jesus handled, not much reason for weekly meetings.

 

[Silmarien]

That would probably be covered by Jesus' second commandment, huh? If you wouldn't like someone else flying armed drones over your house and killing people, maybe you shouldn't be doing it to others.

Like I said, once one gets those two things from Jesus handled, not much reason for weekly meetings.

Sure, but nobody ever gets those two things handled. That's the whole point.

 

[zephcom]

Sure, but nobody ever gets those two things handled. That's the whole point.

Apparently the weekly meetings aren't helping then, huh?

 

[Samaritan Woman]

I'm not looking to argue, just discuss. What about 1 Corinthians 11:14? I think a man should have short hair. But not shaved to the scalp, as far as I know

I do see the reason behind you bringing up this verse especially as it is included in a challenging section of I Corinthians, that being verses 4-15; I have read a few books that included discussion of this difficult passage along with commentaries and study Bibles.

Paul is primarily addressing the culture in which the Corinthians are living. Because Roman men wore their hair short, for Christian men to wear their long would have made them appear aberrant and feminine and not according to their male gender. Also, keep in mind a few passages elsewhere in scripture – Paul grew his own hair long to fulfill some kind of a vow (Acts 18:18), and Acts 21:20-24 discusses a similar situation with other men. Ultimately they shaved their heads, however. Numbers 6:1-5 instructs Nazirite men to not cut their hair and to grow their hair long.

Hope that offers some clarification!

 

[Samaritan Woman]

Why would such a harmless thing be seen as dishonorable? Also if it is dishonorable why are so many of the characters of the Bible depicted with long hair?

Please see my response to this. Ultimately, God's design is for men and women to look like their respective genders which He designed them to have.

 

[Silmarien]

Apparently the weekly meetings aren't helping then, huh?

Sure they are, but I'm pretty High Church. More sacraments, less moralizing.

Calling people out where they're going wrong is extremely valuable, though. That's a role that any church, regardless of religion, can really play well. That's why I brought up an example from a non-Christian, secular church. You do need some sort of external input if you care about moral growth.

When religion fails to play that role and actually encourages people to continue going wrong, then we've got a serious issue.

 

[zephcom]

Sure they are, but I'm pretty High Church. More sacraments, less moralizing.

Calling people out where they're going wrong is extremely valuable, though. That's a role that any church, regardless of religion, can really play well. That's why I brought up an example from a non-Christian, secular church. You do need some sort of external input if you care about moral growth.

When religion fails to play that role and actually encourages people to continue going wrong, then we've got a serious issue.

One could easily make the case that organized religion...Christian and non-Christian alike...does fail to play that role far more often than it plays it. Organized religion is owned and operated by the very same types of human beings it presumes to teach. That is a classic manifestation of the 'Blind leading the Blind'.

The word which describes those people who call others out for going wrong while not being constantly right themselves is hypocrisy. Hypocrites never achieve success without their hypocrisy dragging them back.

About a third of the world's population claim to be Christian. It is the worlds largest organized religion by about 800,000 people. And yet its impact on the world's population is nearly zero.

Why is that? It is because it spends its time calling out the moral failures of others while ignoring the teachings of Jesus which call for His followers to raise their own spiritual levels by 'doing to others as you would have them do to you'. His call is to become a conduit which allows Divine Love to flow through His followers and into the world. This is accomplished by loving others as one loves oneself.

How is it that if one out of every three people on the planet are Christian, there is no evidence that Divine Love is operating here? That is the failure of the organized religion. And no amount of 'calling out' others will make it better.

 

[Rajni]

it could be referring to many things such as the inclination for most men to have short hair, the more physical and natural (nature) role of men, meaning work, requiring shorter hair in general or it could be something else. I'm not a Pastor but I believe the Bible instructs men not to have long hair. I wasn't in the military but a high percentage of militaries require men to have short hair for solid reasons.

True, shorter hair is simply practical in some environments, for both men and women.

But the religious-shame-angle really shouldn't factor into hair length, since God Himself (or nature, if one prefers) designed both men and women so that their hair, if left to Divine design/Nature, could go full-on Rapunzel, at least in most cases.

 

[jayem]

I wasn't in the military but a high percentage of militaries require men to have short hair for solid reasons.

For sure. That's a 20th century thing related to helmets and other headgear. It certainly wasn't true in the past. Military men back in the day often had long hair--not to mention mustaches and full beards.

Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington

Admiral Horatio Nelson

Stonewall Jackson

George Custer

 

[Erik Nelson]

"give an inch get a mile"

eventually the miles add up to light years and interstellar distances

that is how society transitioned from the Middle Ages to modern secular society

allegedly "the Devil is in the details" unsuspecting humans overlook and or dismiss

"slippery slope"

 

[zephcom]

For sure. That's a 20th century thing related to helmets and other headgear. It certainly wasn't true in the past. Military men back in the day often had long hair--not to mention mustaches and full beards.

Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington

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Admiral Horatio Nelson

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Stonewall Jackson

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George Custer

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Not to mention the images of Jesus which are widely available in Western art and literature portray Him as having long hair.

 

[Dave-W]

Why does Christianity label harmless action/things/activities as immoral? Examples:Heavy Metal,

Not just heavy metal. I remember when light pop music was considered devilish. Interestingly, I once saw a video of a preacher in the late 1940s making the same exact charges against big band jazz.

Back beats were from pagan worship practices
Minor keys showed a lack of relationship with God
"Blues notes" incited ungodly lust and sexual desires

Baptist bible teacher Bill Gothard also added that "alternative chords" and complex chords were sinful and satanic.

So it was not just metal music.

 

[zephcom]

Not just heavy metal. I remember when light pop music was considered devilish. Interestingly, I once saw a video of a preacher in the late 1940s making the same exact charges against big band jazz.

Back beats were from pagan worship practices
Minor keys showed a lack of relationship with God
"Blues notes" incited ungodly lust and sexual desires

Baptist bible teacher Bill Gothard also added that "alternative chords" and complex chords were sinful and satanic.

So it was not just metal music.

One can't get the offerings if one can't first draw a crowd. That means manufacturing 'issues which need fixing'.

In today's world the manufactured issue is abortion.

 

[Dave-W]

For sure. That's a 20th century thing related to helmets and other headgear. It certainly wasn't true in the past. Military men back in the day often had long hair--not to mention mustaches and full beards.

It goes back farther than that. Julius Caesar started it for his army before he became the emperor. He found in battle the gaulish "barbarians" would grab a soldier by the beard or hair and then either run him thru with a sword or bash him with a club. So he demanded his soldiers have short hair and be clean shaven.

 

[Halbhh]

Why does Christianity label harmless action/things/activities as immoral? Examples:Heavy Metal, Dungeons & Dragons, long hair on men, braless women, etc. Secondary question: What is the boundary that separates action from immoral action? If you cannot answer question 2 then how can you know right from wrong in terms of morality?

Note. If you claim something is immoral/wrong/bad, please say why with as much detail as possible.

Those particular examples seem more like cultural preferences/prejudices, though such cultural preferences can be commonplace in a region or nation. Now, that doesn't mean there are never any instances of those that are truly wrong. Obviously 'heavy metal' can have an enormous variety in it, and some of the songs can be genuinely a bad influence, while others are good, a good influence.

Some good, some bad, and some just neutral.

But wholesale rejecting all 'heavy metal' without any sub categories/distinctions is more a cultural prejudice I think.

The question of dress is a more complex, in that in a given culture we are not supposed to knowingly trip others into sin by dressing in a way that is sexually suggestive or overly enticing, but instead to dress modestly, but the caveat is that 'modest' is culturally conditioned so that it depends in which culture/place you are in what is locally modest and what isn't. What is perfectly modest here may be sexually provocative in another country, and vise-versa. Following the golden rule, we should try to dress in a way that is modest relative to the local culture we are in, which in America at least means it's perfectly fine to where clothing that would not be okay in some Middle Eastern nations for example.

The boundary condition is that we not be led nor lead others into breaking this rule from Christ (in this particular wording):

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the law..."

Notice He said 'in everything'. That's important. Example: even if my wearing some certain clothing or skin revealing of some kind may be ok here where I'm at, if I visit someplace it causes someone there at that place to trip into adultery lust, then I'd be breaking the rule above, in that I'd be mistreating the spouse of that person, by tempting their mate, while I'd not want someone to tempt my mate.

So, this rule is very powerful to help us establish the exact boundary condition all the time, in all situations. (I haven't found a situation where I can't apply it usefully.)

 

[Robert65]

It has been said to me that only a saved person can understand the Bible properly.

Many claim to be saved yet even among “the saved” there is still no universal agreement upon what the Scripture says.

I think a lot of the Bible is not up for interpretation and is clearly written.

Many say that yet disagree as to what was written. Words are interpretive and we humans are predictable in that we tend to see our interpretation as the accurate view of scripture. Where things become ironic is when I see two Christians arguing over who’s interpretation is the correct interpretation, sometimes contentiously.

I haven't been a Christian very long so I don't know much but I know sorcery is not a good thing in the Bible. I think D&D has magic etc?

The Disney movie Cinderella has magic in it, is it thus an immoral movie? I bet many a Christian has a copy of that movie or has streamed it for their children. There is no such thing as magic in a mystical sense. Magic is slight of hand, misdirection and takes advantage of flawed and easily fooled human senses.

To be open, I'm not trying to be sanctimonious or an authority. I even played the videogame Dishonored a month or so ago which has character called the outsider who inhabits a world called the void, he gives the protagonist "magical" abilites. I did stop playing games for around a month when I became Christian. Then I argued it was maybe ok. Now I'm unsure again and have stopped. I think as long as it doesn't dishonour God I am generally ok however it's never that simple.

I been playing video game since 1978 and not a single problem I have ever had was caused by a video game. But that is me and others may have a different experience.

Sorry for rambling on a bit

I appreciate your input.

 

[Robert65]

Things are immoral if they are contrary to God's intended design.

Sadly Christians are not unified on what that is. For example some Christians have no problem with a woman going braless while others do. Both sides can likely cherrypick from the Scripture that which backs their claim.