My Jesus Challenge

[dlamberth]

Hey hey my dear.

So what is the solution?

Can violence be justified?

Cheers hey

I think the better question to ask is: How do we reduce violence?

 

[the iconoclast]

I think the better question to ask is: How do we reduce violence?

Hey hey my dear

I think you answered the wrong question. Please go back

Cheers

 

[Zoness]

Hey hey my dear.

So what is the solution?

Can violence be justified?

Cheers hey

I think violence can be justified in self-defense and some military actions, but the justifications are much more sparse than we currently allow for. Israel's penchant for violence feels very arbitrary to any outsider. Now of course, the Bible had human authors with distinctly human biases, its not surprising that we'd hear a lot about what Israel thought was right.

Still, you definitely don't want to insult any of them.

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

But to my original claim that Christianity and the Bible can be used to stir up violence; I think this is quite reasonable. As I cited in my original post on the matter we have several examples within recent memory to call upon. I could pick on other religions (Islam is especially violent), but their adherents are not in play here currently.

 

[the iconoclast]

I think violence can be justified in self-defense and some military actions, but the justifications are much more sparse than we currently allow for.

Hey hey my dear

What do you mean by the justifications are much more sparse?

Israel's penchant for violence feels very arbitrary to any outsider.

I disagree with the usuage of penchant my friend, this is a form of framing and setup. This statement is a kin to a true scotsman ie all true humane cultures are more civil than the Israelites.

Now of course, the Bible had human authors with distinctly human biases, its not surprising that we'd hear a lot about what Israel thought was right.

I disagree with this statement my treasure. The Bible may have been linked to about 40 authors however, you are making an accusation that it is not inspired by God. The underlying theme here is the Bible is flawed!

Why do you want me to believe the Bible is flawed?

You seem to be a person who expresses an unfavourable opinion of the Bible in particular 2 kings 2:23-24.

Give me an appeal to your authority, why or how can you judge this verse? What morality governs your outcome?

But to my original claim that Christianity and the Bible can be used to stir up violence; I think this is quite reasonable.

How is it reasonable my friend?

As I cited in my original post on the matter we have several examples within recent memory to call upon. I could pick on other religions (Islam is especially violent), but their adherents are not in play here currently.

This statement seems like you are trying to lump islamic violence with the OT.

This statement mentions events in the Bible and then tries to link it to violence caused by followers of Islam. Considering recent terrorism fresh in the memories, you seem to be trying to misrepresent and liken both.

Islam is not Christianity?



In relation to Christianity, why should i listen to you?

Cheers you marvel

 

[the iconoclast]

No, I have not. That is the challenge for Christians to fulfill, since eternal life is one major end-goal. Increasing their life span as a result of practicing the Christian path would be major evidence that the Christian path could be effective & true.

Hey hey sorry to leave you hanging my dear

Do you mean increasing our life span on earth?

Why would increasing ones lifespan be major evidence?

A major end-goal of Buddhism is the cessation of suffering. I've observed in myself and others that the practice of the Buddhist path does result in great reductions in suffering.

What benefit is it to you to not suffer?

What reduction in suffering have you observed?

Physical, mental, emotional, imagination, consciousness, subconsciousness, jhanic states, etc.

How is conscious intention the power over these examples?

I can suggest many alternatives.

Well dont be shy my friend. When i call out to Christ, who else would answer?

My end-goal is not to achieve a relationship with deity nor to become nothing, but the cessation of suffering.

What benefit is it for you to become nothing?

Why is suffering something you are affraid of or need to be rid of?

No, I stated that we don't normally interact with bacteria; in Buddhism, devas don't normally interact with the human realm, as it is compared with a human being jumping into a cesspool of filth.

What realm are they in?

The question about "who created the earth" is irrelevant to my end-goal of cessation of suffering. Anything I crave & cling to which is impermanent and not-self is suffering; its cessation is the cessation of that craving & clinging.

Do you believe the earth was not created? Why?

Would the desire to help the poor be craving and a form.of suffering?

Because you need a personal, direct encounter with your deity, as you yourself claim you possess. No amount of evangelism, faith, or scripture will substitute for that direct encounter.

How do you know this?

Why are Christians told to spread the Gospel?

It results from an admixture of skillful and unskillful causes.

Such as?

I don't recall ever claiming this, so I don't understand your questions.

Well lets try this one. Why do you reject brahma is the creator of earth?

It's not bad. It's simply the result of unskillfulness. Unskillful kamma (actions & behavior) produces unskillful results, like a roach, which has lesser abilities to escape suffering, ignorance, and delusion.

So a cockroach is unskillful and has lesser abilities. Who judges this poor cockroach? Who is behind the decicion making process for karma?

From a Buddhist perspective, the allusion refers to nibbana - the unbinding that cools the heat of suffering. The flame arises as a result of multiple causes (fuel, air, etc.), just as the being arises as a result of multiple causes (food, air, water, thought, etc.). Blowing out the flame causes the flame to cool as it ceases its clinging to its causes, just as the cessation of clinging and craving in a being causes the being to cool from its causes and sufferings.

Does the flame extinguish?

Cheers you

 

[ananda]

Hey hey sorry to leave you hanging my dear Do you mean increasing our life span on earth? Why would increasing ones lifespan be major evidence?

Because eternal life is the major end-goal of Christianity, and showing that one's own lifespan has increased is evidence that the end-goal is likely achievable.

What benefit is it to you to not suffer? What reduction in suffering have you observed?

Peace. Much greater peace than before I undertook the Path.

How is conscious intention the power over these examples?

It is plainly evident that cConscious intention drives our every action.

Well dont be shy my friend. When i call out to Christ, who else would answer?

The power of your own conscious intention is one alternative.

What benefit is it for you to become nothing? Why is suffering something you are affraid of or need to be rid of?

My end-goal is not to become nothing, but the cessation of suffering. Why do you pursue the end of suffering?

What realm are they in?

Their own realm.

Do you believe the earth was not created? Why?

I am agnostic on the subject. I cannot know the answer, and pursuit of guesses only adds to suffering.

Would the desire to help the poor be craving and a form.of suffering?

Yes, if not expressed through wise example.

How do you know this?

You gave that example yourself: "I think i already mentioned this. When God speaks to me it is in the form of the Holy Spirit. This experience is not audible in my heart by rather like a spiritual intuition , in my heart."

Why are Christians told to spread the Gospel?

That is for a Christian to answer.

Such as?

Attachments to the human state, human organs of perception, delusion, aversions, moderate degrees of virtue, etc.

Well lets try this one. Why do you reject brahma is the creator of earth?

Because attachments to guesses about who created the earth is suffering.

So a cockroach is unskillful and has lesser abilities. Who judges this poor cockroach? Who is behind the decicion making process for karma?

I just know that the Law of Kamma is in effect. I don't know "who" might have created it.

Does the flame extinguish? Cheers you

The flame unbinds from its fuel, and its constituent elements dissipates.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The "Temple cleansing" was one of the favourite passage of the "Deutsche Christen", i.e. Protestants in league with the Nazi Party who seized upon a long, strong tradition of anti-Judaism starting with certain parts of Christian scripture as well as Martin Luther's writings on the topic of "the Jews and their lies" (which read like a roadmap for the holocaust).
It certainly matches common antisemitic stereotypes of the "money-grubbing Jew".

I think violence can be *rationalised*, but apart from genuine self-defense (which is more of a sad necessity than a gratuitous reason to rejoice at a chance to inflict death and harm upon your enemies), the reasons given are seldom good.
The authors of the Bible were clearly operating under the impression that justice is basically socially accepted revenge, and that feuds that extended to next of kin were perfectly fine ways to repay a received wrong.

 

[Zoness]

Hey hey my dear

What do you mean by the justifications are much more sparse?

I disagree with the usuage of penchant my friend, this is a form of framing and setup. This statement is a kin to a true scotsman ie all true humane cultures are more civil than the Israelites.

I'm not sure how its a no true scotsman, though I think many cultures were more humane than the Israelites. That doesn't generally refer to their contemporaries, though.

I disagree with this statement my treasure. The Bible may have been linked to about 40 authors however, you are making an accusation that it is not inspired by God. The underlying theme here is the Bible is flawed!

Why do you want me to believe the Bible is flawed?

You can believe what you want. I believe the Bible is a human text.

You seem to be a person who expresses an unfavourable opinion of the Bible in particular 2 kings 2:23-24.

Give me an appeal to your authority, why or how can you judge this verse? What morality governs your outcome?

I've referenced it twice, I guess that makes it the majority. In this case its a particularly good example of the petty and arbitrary nature of "God's justice" as described. My morality is derived mostly from the principles of Western liberalism and Secular Humanism.

How is it reasonable my friend?

Please refer to my original post listening some example scriptures. I can add more if needed.

This statement seems like you are trying to lump islamic violence with the OT.

This statement mentions events in the Bible and then tries to link it to violence caused by followers of Islam. Considering recent terrorism fresh in the memories, you seem to be trying to misrepresent and liken both.

Islam is not Christianity?

You're going to have be more clear where I did this, as I do not believe I did.

Though Christianity and Islam are both Abrahamic faiths, they do share much in common. The violence in Christianity and Islam are quite different and the commands to kill are definitely differing. There's no one-to-one comparison that fits will.

No conflation needed.

In relation to Christianity, why should i listen to you?

As I recall you originally made queries to me asking me to offer my beliefs and back them up, which I have done. You can reject them all you like, though I hope you understand why I feel the way that I do.

 

[AV1611VET]

So where's the cry against such violence against the Earth from the Christian community?

Rape is against the law.

Isn't that good enough? or do you want us out crying and shouting against every law that is broken?

 

[AV1611VET]

You don't need to do anything. I'm only agreeing with you that the Bible does not condone violence. But what I see is that Christians do. And to me there's a huge disconnect there.

Then why does your icon come with thorns?

 

[AV1611VET]

I believe that Jesus was a pacifist.

Have you read the book of Revelation? or the Old Testament?

 

[dlamberth]

Then why does your icon come with thorns?

In the spiritual path I follow the rose is an image often used. The image goes something like this: Human Beings start out as a tiny rose bud with thorns. The flower of the rose is pictured as our soul. And our soul in the spiritual path I follow is experienced as an activity of God. The thorns are pictured as our ego self. As the rose unfolds our soul (God) begins to shine and we become more beautiful. Yes the thorns are still there, but the flower (our soul) as it unfolds becomes what we see and the thorns become almost invisible in the beauty of what we see and smell because of the light shining from the flowering rose.

What I'm finding interesting is that your looking at the thorns. But if we want to see God in people we need to be looking at the flower of their being.

 

[dlamberth]

Have you read the book of Revelation? or the Old Testament?

I tried reading Revelation. It was way too full of goobily gook for me. The Old Testament is about a God of War, which was how the ancients viewed their gods.

 

[AV1611VET]

In the spiritual path I follow the rose is an image often used.

I know what a rose is.

I'm asking you why your icon has thorns?

 

[AV1611VET]

I tried reading Revelation.

Can't take that Pacifist, as you called Him, splitting that mountain in two and single-handedly winning the war of Armageddon?

It was way too full of goobily gook for me. The Old Testament is about a God of War, which was how the ancients viewed their gods.

Couldn't take that Pacifist, as you called Him, going around killing all the firstborn of Egypt who didn't have blood sprinkled on their doorposts?

So Jesus is a pacifist, and any actions He did, such as sending hornets against people, or causing walls to come down, or opening up the ground to swallow people murmuring against Moses is all "goobily gook" [sic] to you?

 

[dlamberth]

So Jesus is a pacifist, and any actions He did, such as sending hornets against people, or causing walls to come down, or opening up the ground to swallow people murmuring against Moses is all "goobily gook" [sic] to you?

You asked about the book of Revelation. Yes, "goobily gook"!

 

[dlamberth]

I know what a rose is.

I'm asking you why your icon has thorns?

I gave my answer. Did you get the imaging part of the ego? It has to do with spiritual growth.

 

[AV1611VET]

I gave my answer. Did you get the imaging part of the ego? It has to do with spiritual growth.

So I simply ask about thorns on a rose, and I get a lecture on ego and spiritual growth?

Wow.

 

[dlamberth]

So I simply ask about thorns on a rose, and I get a lecture on ego and spiritual growth?

Wow.

If you don't get it, I can't help you. I'm really Sorry. But it is about ego and spiritual growth. I tried to explain but if all you see is lecture, we can't go any further.

 

[dlamberth]

"The rose’s rarest essence lives in the thorn".
~Jalaluddin Rumi~