2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

What am I asking for? A simple statement of obedience to all we are called to do.
If being a christian is just saying I believe Jesus gave me a free ticket to heaven because He died on the cross for my sins and if I believe this, gives me eternal life, they are not christians or sheep.

It is the cheap instant version of faith and eternity with no content.
Not suprisingly these people regard us as legalists, because they do not know what repentance, brokenness, weeping, sorrow, a sense of hopelessness, and deep remorse over ones own start is the beginning of the walk.

Now from a teenager, Jesus changed me. It was so foundational I have never looked back. So brothers and sisters, it is not as if the other side of the argument are going to agree with us, ever, because there is truly a spiritual divide which they cannot cross.

My experience of these people, is they stay as they are or just get more abusive, because they do not understand Jesus's people are just listening to Jesus. Praise the Lord.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What am I asking for? A simple statement of obedience to all we are called to do.
If being a christian is just saying I believe Jesus gave me a free ticket to heaven because He died on the cross for my sins and if I believe this, gives me eternal life, they are not christians or sheep.

It is the cheap instant version of faith and eternity with no content.
Not suprisingly these people regard us as legalists, because they do not know what repentance, brokenness, weeping, sorrow, a sense of hopelessness, and deep remorse over ones own start is the beginning of the walk.

Now from a teenager, Jesus changed me. It was so foundational I have never looked back. So brothers and sisters, it is not as if the other side of the argument are going to agree with us, ever, because there is truly a spiritual divide which they cannot cross.

My experience of these people, is they stay as they are or just get more abusive, because they do not understand Jesus's people are just listening to Jesus. Praise the Lord.

Yes how is that repentance. I’m born again into the same person I was before but now I believe in Jesus!! James 2:19 comes to mind.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What am I asking for? A simple statement of obedience to all we are called to do.
If being a christian is just saying I believe Jesus gave me a free ticket to heaven because He died on the cross for my sins and if I believe this, gives me eternal life, they are not christians or sheep.

It is the cheap instant version of faith and eternity with no content.
Not suprisingly these people regard us as legalists, because they do not know what repentance, brokenness, weeping, sorrow, a sense of hopelessness, and deep remorse over ones own start is the beginning of the walk.

Now from a teenager, Jesus changed me. It was so foundational I have never looked back. So brothers and sisters, it is not as if the other side of the argument are going to agree with us, ever, because there is truly a spiritual divide which they cannot cross.

My experience of these people, is they stay as they are or just get more abusive, because they do not understand Jesus's people are just listening to Jesus. Praise the Lord.

Ask him what James 2:14 means. His answer amazes me.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Ask him what James 2:14 means. His answer amazes me.

I can see how this verse would cause a problem.

The difference between love growing in the heart shown through actions and words, and head knowledge which ascents to the ideas, but never resolves the life.

For emotionally closed down and defended people this is no easy thing.
I know someone close to me who ascents to faith as something that makes her feel good, but has never grasped love of Christ and what it means to be embraced by Him. She hears the words, but it has always been for her something external.

Are we willing to put ourselves in the place of total vulnerability?
Paul went from persecutor of the church, to preacher for the church.
He literally put his life on the line because of his convictions.

I went out to share and serve the Lord early in my life, ignoring the risks.
It puts things into a different perspective, very different from a part time
commitment maybe worth following, but will just go along with it for the moment.

So maybe the real language here is how much do we have to put on the altar?

Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.
Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.
Matt 10:39-41

Giving up our old lives and all it stands for is hard, but there is nothing worthy to keep. It seems that this is where the divide centres. The giving up is being denied, just a faith ascent is enough.

It is as if the idea we have to give up the world is earning salvation rather than recognising the division between the world and the Kingdom of God and that we have to die to the world.
It is not what I hear much preaching on today.

But if you give up on the world, where is the blessing of wealth that comes with following Jesus.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I feel in my heart I can now deal with being judged.

I am told I add unreasonable understanding to a verse in scripture.
I am told because of this unreasonable understanding I am not following Jesus.

In context these ideas may be true. But in another context they are extremely judgemental and condemning, saying someone is actually doomed to judgement.

What is being discussed here is did Jesus say His sheep listen to Him and follow Him.

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."
John 10:27

An idea can be repeated so many times, when reading certain words their actual
meaning never appears. So they read,
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. " for a little time, maybe only at some point in their lives and following, maybe never, and listening, no, only accepting the salvation transaction.

Would a sheep condemn another sheep for behaving as Jesus said His sheep will behave?
Maybe someone still struggling with issue of faith, listening and following maybe?
Or maybe because they think they know Jesus, but are still far away.
Dear Lord Jesus, help us all who read your word, to listen and to repent and walk
in your ways, the ways of life, as you are the Son of God who brings life to all men,
Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"And where do you read that?"

It’s in the Bible

This is just so typical of your side. You can't provide any evidence for your claims.

To say it's in the Bible is nothing other than a cop-out. As you well know.

If it was, you'd have at least provided a citation of where to find it. But you didn't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My friend "free", I am just quoting Jesus.

As I have been as well.

I have to thank you for showing me John 28:27-28

You are very welcome.

It encourages my heart to know He knows me, and He knows we listen to Him and follow Him. As you seem to not be in agreement with me I know you do not.

Hold on a sec. What I disagree with you about is that once eternal life is given to a person, on the basis of faith in Christ, that person shall never perish.

You have a different opinion than what Jesus said so very plainly.

I don't disagree that believers are to listen to Him and follow Him. But that is not for either getting saved, or maintaining one's salvation.

Jesus tells me you will never listen to me, so God bless you, I wish you well, but I cannot really say anymore

When did Jesus tell you that?

btw, the ONLY WAY I can respond to your posts is to READ them (same as listening), so IF Jesus really did say that to you, He was wrong.

But, we know He is NEVER wrong in what He says because He is omniscient, Deity.

So your claim is false, once again.

Now, if Jesus whispered in your ear that I will never believer some of the things you say, then, of course, that would be totally true.

But I DO listen, which my responses (posts) to you prove.

If I didn't listen, my posts would reflect that by comments that have nothing to do with what you've posted.

But my comments directly engage with your comments. Proof that I listen (read).

However, the exact opposite seems to be the rule of those on your side who "respond" to my posts. They don't deal with any of my points, but simply keep making their own points, as if that is a legitimate response.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok but we’re talking about all the churches here.

I'm talking about the 'early church'. Did you not read the quote from Wikipedia that I shared?

They were all overtaken by apostasy? Because they all agreed on doctrine.

How do you know that? Did you take a survey, or know someone who did?

And do you not believe the warning in Scripture by Paul in Acts 20:29?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does it say the majority of the church will fall away in 1 Timothy 4:1? I can’t seem to find it.

Are you aware of the time frame being referred to in this verse?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You planted plenty of seeds brother. That’s all we can do. I’m sure God is pleased. Perhaps over time they will grow.

How can God be pleased when people who claim Jesus as their Savior don't believe what He says?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I feel in my heart I can now deal with being judged.

I am told I add unreasonable understanding to a verse in scripture.
I am told because of this unreasonable understanding I am not following Jesus.

Let's be clear here. Believing that any believer can end up perishing is NOT believing Jesus. How is that different from not following Jesus?

In context these ideas may be true. But in another context they are extremely judgemental and condemning, saying someone is actually doomed to judgement.

I've never even suggested that about you. I'm only pointing out that by believing that a believer can perish is directly in conflict with what Jesus said.

What is being discussed here is did Jesus say His sheep listen to Him and follow Him.

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."
John 10:27

This is a description of Jesus' sheep. NOT a condition for becoming His sheep.

An idea can be repeated so many times, when reading certain words their actual
meaning never appears. So they read,
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. " for a little time, maybe only at some point in their lives and following, maybe never, and listening, no, only accepting the salvation transaction.

Here's the problem with your very narrowly forced 'meaning' to v.27:
Jesus spoke of people who "believed for a while and then fell away" in Luke 8:13. So here is a clear example of one of His sheep who followed for a while and then ceased.

So don't give me this nonsense that v.27 is a condition for being His sheep. It's a general description in a point in time. Jesus wasn't speaking of a lifetime commitment in order to be His sheep. Which seems to be your opinion.

Luke 8:13 proves that your "understanding" of John 10:27 is false.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Let's be clear here. Believing that any believer can end up perishing is NOT believing Jesus. How is that different from not following Jesus?

I've never even suggested that about you. I'm only pointing out that by believing that a believer can perish is directly in conflict with what Jesus said.

This is a description of Jesus' sheep. NOT a condition for becoming His sheep.

Here's the problem with your very narrowly forced 'meaning' to v.27:
Jesus spoke of people who "believed for a while and then fell away" in Luke 8:13. So here is a clear example of one of His sheep who followed for a while and then ceased.

So don't give me this nonsense that v.27 is a condition for being His sheep. It's a general description in a point in time. Jesus wasn't speaking of a lifetime commitment in order to be His sheep. Which seems to be your opinion.

Luke 8:13 proves that your "understanding" of John 10:27 is false.

Not sure what you are trying to show. I know your position, you know mine.
I am not saying you are speaking nonsense, just adding conditions on the end, which you have confirmed in your text, "a general description in a point in time"

Now when one has sown to the Lord and reaped life, it changes you.
And the life I am speaking about is not commitment as more about becoming.
I cannot become something and then return, because I am changed.
And my testimony is to this change, which is being His sheep.

So when you use words like "understanding" it is an intellectual assent, not a life
experience. Have you had a suicidal brother or sister on permanent medication?
If you go through this experience, it changes you, it tares your heart out and makes
things different. You can talk about the theory, but the actual experience shapes
the ideas and how you express it.

Walking with the Lord is no different. Like when I talk about an open heart, I am
not talking about an idea, but shaking vulnerability and feeling like you will fall
apart, and putting your feelings on line, to find them dashed and broken.
I had an attachment to an object, which I lent to a group. It was weird, after
I did this something changed inside. What I am trying to share is not words,
but who we are.

But what you are talking about appears so invented, for me it holds no meaning.
God bless you, May the Lord bring peace and love into your life.

 

[LightLoveHope]

How can God be pleased when people who claim Jesus as their Savior don't believe what He says?

What amazes me about the above statement, is its repetition.
It is like a short circuit. Do not accept this one idea its boom.
Praise God Jesus is about much more than this. Listen to this idea
which has always been a real promise from Jesus

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
John 14:21

What Jesus is meaning, because I have walked this road and He has shown Himself to me, is by obeying His commands we learn who we are, who He is in our struggles, and in our failure handing it over to Him, where He literally changes our hearts, so we conform to what we desire in righteousness. And then we know not just His love but who He is and where His heart is. This is not intellectual or logical, it is an experience. And it is not even an argument. Walk the road and you will receive, ignore it, and you will not.

There is also something deeper here. We know only the door at first, and where in theory it leads. It takes faith and trust to open and walk, and then we will discover the rest.
So I can just encourage those to start who have not, and for those following, Amen, walk on brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not sure what you are trying to show. I know your position, you know mine.

You haven't yet shown that my position regarding John 10:28 is incorrect.

I am not saying you are speaking nonsense, just adding conditions on the end, which you have confirmed in your text, "a general description in a point in time"

I actually proved that statement, which isn't a "condition", which is what YOU have added to v.28 between receiving eternal life and never perishing.

The parable of the soils SHOWS that some believers cease to believe "after a while" due to testing/temptations. People do lose faith. Jesus SAID that.

So John 10:28 CANNOT be a statement of FACT for every single believer. I'm surprised that isn't obvious to you.

Now when one has sown to the Lord and reaped life, it changes you.

It's called regeneration or being born again.

And the life I am speaking about is not commitment as more about becoming.
I cannot become something and then return, because I am changed.

No, you're just misunderstanding Scripture.

The result of faith in Christ is the new birth, which means we are a new creature/creation, from 2 Cor 5:17. With this we are given the indwelling Holy Spirit, for the purpose of empowering believers to live the Christian life.

But....... the believer MUST access this power. It isn't automatic, nor does it make us robots reprogrammed. Paul commands believers to 'STOP grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit' (Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19). How would it be possible to live the Christian life when a believer is grieving or quenching the Spirit? Obviously not.

Paul also commands believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walk by the Spirit (Gal 5:16).

If you don't see the choice for believers, in order to actually live the Christian life, then whatever pastors you've been sitting under have failed to properly teach you.

And my testimony is to this change, which is being His sheep.

Just keep in mind that John 10 is all about metaphors. Let's just stick with "believer" to indicate someone who has received eternal life, has been born again, has the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Do you know that real sheep are among the DUMBEST animals on the planet? They get lost and in trouble a lot.

So when you use words like "understanding" it is an intellectual assent, not a life experience.

When I understand something, that IS an experience.

Have you had a suicidal brother or sister on permanent medication?

No.

If you go through this experience, it changes you, it tares your heart out and makes things different. You can talk about the theory, but the actual experience shapes
the ideas and how you express it.

Are you aware that none of this changes the Word of God at all?

Let's not base truth on our own experiences. It is entirely that people can misunderstand their own experiences.

Walking with the Lord is no different.

I just gave you 4 commands regarding the Holy Spirit, which MUST be obeyed in order to really walk with the Lord. Anything less or other is phony.

Like when I talk about an open heart, I am not talking about an idea, but shaking vulnerability and feeling like you will fall apart, and putting your feelings on line, to find them dashed and broken.

I'm sorry for all your sorrow and troubles, but none of it changes the truth of God's Word. So I don't know why you even bring this up. But it does affirm my earlier thoughts that you seem to be driven by emotions. The Bible never says to do that. It's about knowledge, not emotions.

Here are just some verses about knowledge:
and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
1 Tim 2:4 - who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 1-
2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Pet 3:18 - But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

No believer can grow up in their salvation through emotions.

Note that these verses (and there are many more) speak of knowledge, not emotions.

I had an attachment to an object, which I lent to a group. It was weird, after
I did this something changed inside. What I am trying to share is not words,
but who we are.

??

But what you are talking about appears so invented, for me it holds no meaning.

You mean like your previous statement above?

The reason my comments appear "so inverted" and have "no meaning" for you is because you are driven by emotion rather than by knowledge.

The problem with emotions is that there is no thinking, only feelings.

And please don't quote or cite a lot of verses about "loving others". The Greek word is 'agape', and there is NO emotion in that word.

It's how we TREAT others, not how we FEEL about them.

Do you think Jesus had a "warm feeling" about you on the cross? Don't kid yourself. Being on the cross was an act of love (we didn't earn or deserve it) towards sinners.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"How can God be pleased when people who claim Jesus as their Savior don't believe what He says?"

What amazes me about the above statement, is its repetition.

Do you know why I keep asking this question? I am hoping that your position DOES oppose what Jesus said in John 10:28 and hopefully the question will sink in.

I have noticed that you haven't come close to answering the question either.

It is like a short circuit. Do not accept this one idea its boom.
Praise God Jesus is about much more than this. Listen to this idea
which has always been a real promise from Jesus

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
John 14:21

Again, your opinions are against the Lord's teaching, so how can you be among the "whoever has Jesus' commands and obeys them" when you don't even believe what He teaches?

Why aren't you realizing your own opposition to Jesus?

What Jesus is meaning, because I have walked this road and He has shown Himself to me, is by obeying His commands we learn who we are, who He is in our struggles, and in our failure handing it over to Him, where He literally changes our hearts, so we conform to what we desire in righteousness.

Then WHY WHY WHY do you continue to believe that some believers can perish?

And then we know not just His love but who He is and where His heart is. This is not intellectual or logical, it is an experience.

Here we go again, with emotions. The Bible is about knowledge, not one's experiences, which may be faulty.

And it is not even an argument. Walk the road and you will receive, ignore it, and you will not.

This doesn't make sense.

There is also something deeper here. We know only the door at first, and where in theory it leads. It takes faith and trust to open and walk, and then we will discover the rest.

What is "deeper" is knowledge, not emotions or experiences, which are basically the same thing.

So I can just encourage those to start who have not, and for those following, Amen, walk on brothers and sisters in Christ.

Your fuzzy emotions will get you nowhere. The Bible tells us that knowledge will get us to participate in God's plan for us.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Hi Free,

You know my position.

Jesus says this

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matt 5:6

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
1 cor 3:12-13

If the foundation has been lost, then nothing remains.

You believe though the foundation has gone, and the work is burnt up, something of value remains.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I can see how this verse would cause a problem.

The difference between love growing in the heart shown through actions and words, and head knowledge which ascents to the ideas, but never resolves the life.

For emotionally closed down and defended people this is no easy thing.
I know someone close to me who ascents to faith as something that makes her feel good, but has never grasped love of Christ and what it means to be embraced by Him. She hears the words, but it has always been for her something external.

Are we willing to put ourselves in the place of total vulnerability?
Paul went from persecutor of the church, to preacher for the church.
He literally put his life on the line because of his convictions.

I went out to share and serve the Lord early in my life, ignoring the risks.
It puts things into a different perspective, very different from a part time
commitment maybe worth following, but will just go along with it for the moment.

So maybe the real language here is how much do we have to put on the altar?

Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.
Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.
Matt 10:39-41

Giving up our old lives and all it stands for is hard, but there is nothing worthy to keep. It seems that this is where the divide centres. The giving up is being denied, just a faith ascent is enough.

It is as if the idea we have to give up the world is earning salvation rather than recognising the division between the world and the Kingdom of God and that we have to die to the world.
It is not what I hear much preaching on today.

But if you give up on the world, where is the blessing of wealth that comes with following Jesus.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭

Brother FG2 says James is saying can that faith save him from being a hypocrite. He claims James is not talking about salvation. This truly baffles me because anytime the word “saved” is mentioned in the Bible without reference to what someone is being saved from it is referring to salvation.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Imagine a church focused on love, being of one mind and heart in Christ. Amen.

The preaching is so poor today, a believer claimed this was not Gods intention.

I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1 Cor 10:10

May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you. May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones
1 Thess 3:12-13

Amen, halleluyah.

Now for those with a closed heart, who do not know themselves or others, these words appear to be about understanding of doctrine and facts. Except they are flowing with emotion, as Paul was a very emotional man.

For if I grieve you, who is left to make me glad but you whom I have grieved?
I wrote as I did so that when I came I should not be distressed by those who ought to make me rejoice. I had confidence in all of you, that you would all share my joy.
2 Cor 2:2-3

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
Phil 4:4-6

In truth for those who live repressed controlled lives, the above is impossible. But Jesus came to free us and to give us life. If believers shut out this purpose they shut out Jesus and have not grasped the promise of the Kingdom properly yet.

 

[LightLoveHope]

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭

Brother FG2 says James is saying can that faith save him from being a hypocrite. He claims James is not talking about salvation. This truly baffles me because anytime the word “saved” is mentioned in the Bible without reference to what someone is being saved from it is referring to salvation.

I spent 2 years discussing with a group who had changed all the meanings of the words of scripture. That way they could have a different faith with the same bible. It was odd discussing with them, because their answer was to repeat the words with their meaning, as if this changed the truth. The real trouble was they had invented another reality, and stayed there by changing language.

The definition of insanity is when you make reality fit your world rather than your world fit reality. But what happens when you are a true legalist, ocd where a thought is sin, and just one sin condemned them to not be forgiven by God.

How do you cope with this level of guilt? You leave the faith, but cannot survive outside faith. You then change the faith so your guilt is ok, and you can live with yourself. It is one solution to ocd self condemnation, but not a good one.

Then they tried to convince me they were sane, and ended up condemning me to hell.
Once people as so dependent of their model above reality, there is no discussion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I asked:
"And where do you read that?"

This is just so typical of your side. You can't provide any evidence for your claims.

To say it's in the Bible is nothing other than a cop-out. As you well know.

If it was, you'd have at least provided a citation of where to find it. But you didn't.

What is your definition of follow? My definition is follow Jesus’ teachings and example.

““Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5-6‬

Hence faith without works is dead and useless. The branch withers into a dead stick with no life in it.

““Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:9-13‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Salvation is not received by those who turn away, do not produce fruit (works), do not repent of sin, do not abide, do not remain, do not endure, do not follow (present tense), do not believe (present tense).