Why would a benevolent god condone slavery?

[redleghunter]

If biblical chattel slavery was a morally good welfare system to save people from starvation, then why wouldn't you support it for these people? I expect you to say no. My response then is if it immoral now, why was it not immoral in Biblical times? God's morals don't change over time or place to place?

Slavery was an economic reality with little or none options in that Age. It was a man made created economic system which even in Torah was the most lenient of any other surrounding nations.

Why is it immoral now? From a Christian principle as I stated we are to love one another as Christ loves us. He laid His very own life down for us. He freed us from the bondage of sin and death. And as His followers those of us who have to the power to relieve pain, suffering and bondage do so for our neighbor. It is why you see the plethora of Christian relief agencies bringing not only food but projects of providing clean water through building wells, repairing aging aqueducts and canal systems. Also helping poor nations to learn to till the soil properly to provide their own food.

You will also see many Christians supporting international and local efforts to end human trafficking.

This is all based on the words and example of Christ and not a written or oral law.

 

[redleghunter]

Are you implying that your god is an anachronism? I thought Christians believed that their god never changes.
As for the sacrifice of Jesus giving his life. The bible says he was up and about again in a few days, so where was the sacrifice other than to suffer a very nasty time on a cross.
When the young men of our military went to foreign lands only to return in a coffin, that was a real sacrifice. No one went to their loved ones and said, "I'm sorry to tell you that your son was killed in action, but don't worry, give it a couple of days and he'll be back with you good as new."

Yes God changes not. As I mentioned several times the very injustice you speak of is manmade and not what it was like “in the beginning.”

When the Pharisees confronted Jesus on divorce He quoted them Genesis 2:24. That divorce was due to the hardness of the human heart and that in the beginning before the fall of humankind, divorce was not God’s design but for a man and woman to be joined for life.

The suffering and death of Jesus Christ was necessary to redeem us in fellowship with God. He was the propitiation for our sins and the New Covenant in His Blood. His Resurrection assured us what He did and spoke of is Truth and assured those who love Him, Trust Him and follow Him will have eternal life.

The Christian Hope is in the Risen Christ. What is your hope?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The one sentence the OP used negates his entire argument:

Nothing "man" RECOGNIZES, makes something God has implemented, "immoral." That is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, ours to decide. No matter how much we want to rant and rave and throw tantrums about it, many things are just not ours to declare "immoral".
We can say it violates laws WE have made. But, that is all it amounts to. (By the way, WE have made it OUR law that homosexuals can marry..... within a few decades, we will have expanded that law OF OURS to include adults marrying children.)
We don't know why God found no problem with slavery... but He seems to have found none.

Listened to a short clip by John Piper last night, and he said something interesting and true when he said that we do not judge the Bible, the Bible is to judge us. Much to be said from that simple truth, and it speaks to much of modern thought and ancient thought, basically all autonomous thought which would set itself up as judge over God and His word in Scripture. Sadly I do not think many realize the self-righteousness involved, nor that they set themselves up as having moral knowledge in terms of moral absolutes. God the Holy Spirit though can bring conviction in this matter, and humility in recognizing the human condition, that the problem is not with God or His word, but in our heart of hearts.

 

[redleghunter]

How is the command in John 13:34 different from the one he gave in Leviticus 19:9-18? Both say love your neighbor? See my answer in #198

Jesus raises the bar. Instead of you and me saying hey I love you because I want you to treat me as you would treat yourself, Jesus as the Divine Logos raised the bar.

He told His followers to love one another as He, the truly God and truly man Divine Logos loved them. Jesus stated He came to serve and not to be served. It was the very example He gave us as the Son of Man which His followers were to live. And this was to put others above themselves.

 

[Brother Billy]

Slavery was an economic reality with little or none options in that Age. It was a man made created economic system which even in Torah was the most lenient of any other surrounding nations.

Why is it immoral now? From a Christian principle as I stated we are to love one another as Christ loves us. He laid His very own life down for us. He freed us from the bondage of sin and death. And as His followers those of us who have to the power to relieve pain, suffering and bondage do so for our neighbor. It is why you see the plethora of Christian relief agencies bringing not only food but projects of providing clean water through building wells, repairing aging aqueducts and canal systems. Also helping poor nations to learn to till the soil properly to provide their own food.

You will also see many Christians supporting international and local efforts to end human trafficking.

This is all based on the words and example of Christ and not a written or oral law.

So your argument is that God condoned a deeply immoral practice for economic reasons? He put money above morals?

For whose economic benefit did he condone slavery anyway? The slaveowners who profited from the Labor of their slaves? The slaves were forced to work for nothing and give up their children to their masters so they didn't profit?

The entire economy of the southern states in the US was entirely dependent on slavery at some point. Yet humans still managed to end slavery - why couldn't God do so in biblical times?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

the slavery that was experienced from the 1400s to the 1800s was in violation of biblical slave law. it was actually a form of man-stealing which is condemned in scripture.

 

[redleghunter]

So your argument is that God condoned a deeply immoral practice for economic reasons? He put money above morals?

No. However your “sub lego” material approach to attempt to understand YHWH and His purpose of Mosaic Law is apparent. YHWH was not re-establishing the Garden of Eden in a fallen world, but applying Law to a set apart people the Hebrews establishing in many cases civil laws. These were in some cases laws governing how one would live in the fallen world in accordance with the Law.

The entire economy of the southern states in the US was entirely dependent on slavery at some point. Yet humans still managed to end slavery - why couldn't God do so in biblical times?

In Biblical times the entire world operated according to the economic norms of mankind. To which Jesus Christ giving His commandment of Love is beyond the fallen world and of Heavenly origin as it was “in the beginning.”

I think you are asking why God won’t just force mankind to end their evil ways. Slavery and poverty being among them. If that is truly your endeavor then reading and studying the entire Scriptures are in order. God has given us all the remedy to our bondage to sin and death. It started with the Incarnation of the Divine Logos when God came to be one of us. Rejection of the Son of God is embracing the evils of the enemy and the manmade injusticies you rail against.

The Risen and Glorifed King will come again to establish His Justice, Mercy, Grace, Love and Peace on earth. This is the eternal Promise and Hope of all those in Christ Jesus.

 

[DogmaHunter]

A servant even a slave in the Bronze Age probably lived better than a 21st century minimum wage worker living pay check to pay check in heavy debt and in crime infested neighborhoods.

Keep telling yourself that.

But ok, let's run with that obvious falsehood.

Then I guess that means that you think those "minimum wage workers" would be better of, if the US would just reïnstitute slavery and enslave them all again?
So, do you support the reinstallment of slavery for this reason?


Don't forget to motivate your answer.

 

[Par5]

Yes God changes not. As I mentioned several times the very injustice you speak of is manmade and not what it was like “in the beginning.”

When the Pharisees confronted Jesus on divorce He quoted them Genesis 2:24. That divorce was due to the hardness of the human heart and that in the beginning before the fall of humankind, divorce was not God’s design but for a man and woman to be joined for life.

The suffering and death of Jesus Christ was necessary to redeem us in fellowship with God. He was the propitiation for our sins and the New Covenant in His Blood. His Resurrection assured us what He did and spoke of is Truth and assured those who love Him, Trust Him and follow Him will have eternal life.

The Christian Hope is in the Risen Christ. What is your hope?

What is my hope? I wouldn't call it hope, more the intention to continue sharing the love I have for my wife, family, and friends. I am getting close to the end of the track and if I have something I hope for it is that I continue to keep in good health and that when my body says it has had enough that it will be a peaceful death.
As for the other stuff in your post that you believe in, I have no interest in it at all. The thought of living for eternity has no appeal to me whatsoever!

 

[redleghunter]

Keep telling yourself that.

But ok, let's run with that obvious falsehood.

Then I guess that means that you think those "minimum wage workers" would be better of, if the US would just reïnstitute slavery and enslave them all again?
So, do you support the reinstallment of slavery for this reason?


Don't forget to motivate your answer.

Well the OP is based on a false premise.

I was taking the anachronism to the next step.

Answer this. Why didn’t they use tractors back then?

 

[redleghunter]

What is my hope? I wouldn't call it hope, more the intention to continue sharing the love I have for my wife, family, and friends. I am getting close to the end of the track and if I have something I hope for it is that I continue to keep in good health and that when my body says it has had enough that it will be a peaceful death.
As for the other stuff in your post that you believe in, I have no interest in it at all. The thought of living for eternity has no appeal to me whatsoever!

Thank you for the reply. I think we all share in the common grace of God which gives us the love for family and life as a gift.

I would gather then your hope ends when you take your last breath?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Well the OP is based on a false premise. I was taking the anachronism to the next step.

Alternatively, you could just retract your obviously false statement instead of trying to dodge the obvious with this excuse.

Answer this. Why didn’t they use tractors back then?

They had oxes, horses, etc. And not the technology yet for machines of that type.
Get to your point already.

 

[redleghunter]

They had oxes, horses, etc. And not the technology yet for machines of that type.
Get to your point already.

Then why not blame God for not revealing Green energy sources and EBT cards to the Israelites? Would have solved the servitude issue no?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Then why not blame God for not revealing Green energy sources and EBT cards to the Israelites? Would have solved the servitude issue no?

No. Not having certain technologies is not an excuse for keeping slaves. Nore does having such technologies prevent people from keeping slaves.

And yes, you certainly could ask the question how come the message of the all knowing, all powerfull creator of the entire universe, doesn't seem to include anything that wasn't allready pretty common knowledge at the time... to the point even, of getting the exact same things wrong as they were believed by those people at that time in that culture.

It's almost as if this god's knowledge doesn't actually exceed that of the sheep herders that supposedly were revealed that knowledge.

 

[redleghunter]

No. Not having certain technologies is not an excuse for keeping slaves. Nore does having such technologies prevent people from keeping slaves.

And yes, you certainly could ask the question how come the message of the all knowing, all powerfull creator of the entire universe, doesn't seem to include anything that wasn't allready pretty common knowledge at the time... to the point even, of getting the exact same things wrong as they were believed by those people at that time in that culture.

It's almost as if this god's knowledge doesn't actually exceed that of the sheep herders that supposedly were revealed that knowledge.

Well why didn't you make it clear earlier you were operating from a narrow naturalistic reductionist theory.

You can now blame God for not forcing a living wage, free housing, free college tuition and universal healthcare for everyone.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Well why didn't you make it clear earlier you were operating from a narrow naturalistic reductionist theory.

You can now blame God for not forcing a living wage, free housing, free college tuition and universal healthcare for everyone.

Hahaha!
I'm laughing, but it's actually not funny.

This is what you are forced to reduce yourself to, just because you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that slavery is an evil practice and that your religion doesn't actually have a problem with it.

Just think about how you ended up making this brutally silly argument and how it started out as....

All that, just so you can avoid having to acknowledge that you have a god here that tells people not to eat shrimp, forces upon them a day of rest (with CAPITAL PUNISHMENT if you work anyway), but slavery? Nah... slavery is a-okay.


It's moral bankrupcy all the way down.


So, the crux of your "argument" now, is "well, god didn't explain how you could harness the power contained in high energy photons emitted by the sun using majorly advanced technology during the bronze age, therefor it is fine to keep slaves"

Uhu.

 

[redleghunter]

Hahaha!
I'm laughing, but it's actually not funny.

This is what you are forced to reduce yourself to, just because you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that slavery is an evil practice and that your religion doesn't actually have a problem with it.

Just think about how you ended up making this brutally silly argument and how it started out as....

All that, just so you can avoid having to acknowledge that you have a god here that tells people not to eat shrimp, forces upon them a day of rest (with CAPITAL PUNISHMENT if you work anyway), but slavery? Nah... slavery is a-okay.


It's moral bankrupcy all the way down.


So, the crux of your "argument" now, is "well, god didn't explain how you could harness the power contained in high energy photons emitted by the sun using majorly advanced technology during the bronze age, therefor it is fine to keep slaves"

Uhu.

No I'm taking the conversation to its logical conclusion. Slavery is an injustice, but so are most wars, poverty, people starving to death when others have plenty, sickness and even death. All things which plague mankind and "if" a benevolent God existed why would this God allow these things to continue? That's what is being plied here.

So the question really should be why would a benevolent God even allow His creation to sin and offend Him? Why just ask about slavery something God did not create, why not all injustices?

So based on this "create" for me, Dogmahunter, your ideal god which would be sensitive to fixing all the evils created by mankind. What does your ideal god look like and why should he or she submit to your will and purpose?

 

[Not David]

No I'm taking the conversation to its logical conclusion. Slavery is an injustice, but so are most wars, poverty, people starving to death when others have plenty, sickness and even death. All things which plague mankind and "if" a benevolent God existed why would this God allow these things to continue? That's what is being plied here.

So the question really should be why would a benevolent God even allow His creation to sin and offend Him? Why just ask about slavery something God did not create, why not all injustices?

So based on this "create" for me, Dogmahunter, your ideal god which would be sensitive to fixing all the evils created by mankind. What does your ideal god look like and why should he or she submit to your will and purpose?

It might be because he/she thinks God has to be like whatever he/she wants he to be.

 

[Ophiolite]

Well why didn't you make it clear earlier you were operating from a narrow naturalistic reductionist theory.

For the same reason, perhaps, that you did not make it clear earlier that you were operating from a narrow, religious, evidence-light, agenda-rich opinion suite. i.e. it should have been self evident.

 

[rjs330]

It is not a struggle for me to know that slavery is wrong and that genocide and the slaughter of infants are wrong. It is not a struggle for me to know that there is no reason that can justify such things.
I don't believe in the biblical god, therefore I don't believe that a god allowed and regulated slavery. I don't believe that a god ordered the extermination of nations including their women, children and infants. Slavery and genocide and infanticide are the works of men and men alone, not the works of some imaginary being.
If I do have a struggle, it's a struggle to understand how anyone can worship a being that they believe regulated slavery and ordered its followers to commit mass murder and then say as you do that they don't understand why these things were allowed to happen. What is there not to understand about slavery, genocide and infanticide?

It's okay to question. Frankly, there is NO answer that we know. All we have is speculation why God allowed slavery in the OT. We do have some understanding why God commanded genocide. It was because of the corruption of those not Israelites because they worshipped other God's and we're exceedingly wicked. That wickedness is no big deal to you because you don't believe in wickedness as God sees it. But that doesn't change the fact that's how God sees it. Again that is irrelevant because it's what you do with Jesus that matters. You will be without excuse.