Many Do Not Believe Believers Will Be Changed?

Blade

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"Sheep and the Goats -- those not chosen see the believers glorified" where is it written that after sheep and goats people are changed? They go on with Christ..but.. it does not say they are changed.. unless I misread or just missed it.

From what I read.. sheep and goats are not us. When He comes He then gathers the nations at that time..those are the ones He splits.
 
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ewq1938

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I saw no answer just a repeat that you reject the rapture. I must conclude you reject the holy scripture as found in 1Th 4:17 where Paul speaks of the Rapture using the Greek word for Rapture, "harpazo". .
 
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ewq1938

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No, I reject your interpretation. The modern idea that some guy in 1800's came up with


I didn't give an interpretation so you can't reject what doesn't exist. It's a fact the verse speaks of a rapture. You are talking about a "pretrib rapture" which is different.
 
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keras

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There is no contradiction. The last trump is the 7th trump and that's when the second coming happens.

There is no such "rule" in scripture. That is unique to you and your own personal theology.
Your unsupported opinions.
Revelation 20:12 is clear; only at the GWT Judgement is the Book of Life opened and immortality conferred to those whose names are in it.
Those whose names are not found, are thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

Please post the proofs of your beliefs and cease making wild and personal accusations.
 
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ToServe

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Is anyone really teaching that this does not happen, or is this just disagreement with the term "rapture"?

I believe the term rapture is in contention.

What did Paul believe when he said those words is how we are to understand what he meant. Since we need to extrapolate that Paul believed that the rapture is in the twinkling of an eye, meaning at an instant and since we are dealing with a timeless transition, the question remains how that transition manifests at the other end so to speak.

If I were to send an encrypted signal at one end of a wire and at the other end I receive the packet of data then decode it to the conform to equipment at the other end, then the form of the original signal at the receiving end has changed to work with equipment at the other end. The computer jargon used is protocol compliance.

In regards to the rapture are we not being transformed in an instant to conform to the Heavenly man from Heaven. If John knew what that form at the other end was then he would not say the following

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

Paul describes this Appearing as follows

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2Timothy 4:6-8)

Was Paul raptured?

I would answer yes.

Paul uses the term Appearing and that Day of receiving his eternal Crown of Life after he was ready to sign out of this temporal life to be forever with the Lord.

Did this happen to Paul in a twinkling of an eye?

Well, when I use the transmission of data analogy it certainly suggests that at the other end Paul is ready to be made protocol compliant to the Heavenly dwelling and in this regard could this according to the immediate perception be in an instant?

Will Paul be one of those saints who return with Christ at his brilliant coming for his remnant Elect before the end of the world?

I believe so because rapture seems to apply as taking the red pill so to speak and to exist this material matrix to the realm of Christ's Father's house of many rooms/dimensions.

Does rapture happen without the biological death of the earthly tent?

I do not believe so. I believe that anything that leaves terraform is being transformed to comply with the Heavenly realm protocol of the Man of Heaven as Paul terms it.
 
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ewq1938

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Was Paul raptured?

The rapture Paul wrote about was those who were alive and remained through the trib until Christ returned. Only those people are part of what we know as "the rapture"....a bodily catching up of the trib's saved survivors....they are also "changed" (allasso in the Greek) which changes the mortal body into immortal.

Paul was not raptured. He died and his spirit returned to God as is written. He will be of those who return with Christ and meet those who are raptured to also meet them.
 
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ToServe

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The rapture Paul wrote about was those who were alive and remained through the trib until Christ returned. Only those people are part of what we know as "the rapture"....a bodily catching up of the trib's saved survivors....they are also "changed" (allasso in the Greek) which changes the mortal body into immortal.

Paul was not raptured. He died and his spirit returned to God as is written. He will be of those who return with Christ and meet those who are raptured to also meet them.

It would be inclusive of those who depart, since the living cannot hinder the departed from attaining their Crown of Life.

Jesus is pictured as coming with those who had departed before the living.

It introduces a deeper meaning to the term rapture than what meets the eye. Since rapture had to have been applied to the departed in Christ, as Jesus said be faithful onto death and I will give you a Crown of Life.

Rapture implies the getting of a believer out of the context of situation within this temporal realm.

If Paul addressed it only to the Living then he would not in a matter of a few versus say the following

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The catching up with them who are departed like Paul on that Day and the remnant who are alive will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

This means that the departed are raptured first before the living implying they are sealed to receive their immortal resurrection bodies before those remaining alive.

It makes no sense to exclude the departed as being the first cab of the rank so to speak as far as the resurrection is concerned.

We need to bring the above in harmony with

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

So where are those who died?

52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and THEN we will be changed.

I put then purposely to highlight a conjunction and statement showing priority of who is raised first which implies the dead are raptured first before the living.

Rapture definition becomes inclusive of the departed and the deeper meaning of catching up seems to imply of being transfered from the temporal realm to the eternal realm within the eternal heavenly resurrection body. The implication is that the dead in Christ must be caught up first before the living.
 
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ewq1938

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It would be inclusive of those who depart, since the living cannot hinder the departed from attaining their Crown of Life.


Paul writes that only the living at the return of Christ shall be raptured. It does not pertain, nor can pertain to those who have died.
 
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ToServe

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Paul writes that only the living at the return of Christ shall be raptured. It does not pertain, nor can pertain to those who have died.

I just explained to you that the dead are raptured first.

How could rapture be applied differently to those departed who receive their Crown of Life first and return with him.

Paul says Christ comes for the dead first to revive them to life and then they accompany him to then catch up the living to revive them to Christ.

The catching up is to Christ and the living will not proceed before the dead within the context of catching up.
 
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ewq1938

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I just explained to you that the dead are raptured first.

The dead are resurrected first but they are never raptured simply because they are already with Christ and need not to be brought to him.

Resurrection is different from rapture.
 
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ToServe

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The catching up is to Christ on the Day of his Appesring when the last trumpet is sounded.

The dead in Christ are first to be caught up to Christ to be awarded their Crown of Life tgen they come with Christ to catch up those remaining alive so they too can be with Christ in their resurrection bodies to see him as he is (1 John 3:2).
 
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ToServe

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The dead are resurrected first but they are never raptured simply because they are already with Christ and need not to be brought to him.

Resurrection is different from rapture.

The catching up is to Christ and John says that when we are with him we become like him and see him as he is (1 John 3:2).

The catching up means that the believer is transformed so that he can be forever with Christ.

You are excluding the context and ignoring who is receiving their eternal crown of life first.

You can not say the dead are with Christ and have yet to receive their Crown of Life as that day in the singular pointing to the last trumpet is the catching up of the dead first then those remaining alive.
 
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ewq1938

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The dead in Christ are first to be caught up to Christ to be awarded their Crown of Life tgen they come with Christ to catch up those remaining alive so they too can be with Christ in their resurrection bodies to see him as he is (1 John 3:2).

They are already in heaven now, and follow Christ when he leaves. So, no catching up is required of them which is why Paul does not say they are raptured:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The catching up is only for those who are alive.
 
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ToServe

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They are already in heaven now, and follow Christ when he leaves. So, no catching up is required of them which is why Paul does not say they are raptured:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The catching up is only for those who are alive.

Why do you not underline together with them as in

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord

Together catching up which is inclusive of the dead being caught up.
 
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ToServe

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If party A and party B are to catch the same bus whereby party A is picked up first then afterwards party B, does this not mean that both parties caught the same bus. How is it that only party B caught the bus according to your usage of the term catching up.

You need to include the departed as together with them being caught up to Christ within the context of the last trumpet and the receiving of their crown of life on that Day.
 
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ewq1938

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Why do you not underline together with them as in

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord

Together catching up which is inclusive of the dead being caught up.


The dead are already in the clouds...the living are caught up to be with them who are in the clouds. In no way can the wording mean the dead and living are both caught up plus we know the dead are in heaven not on the Earth.
 
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ewq1938

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If party A and party B are to catch the same bus .


Party A is already at the destination waiting for party B to be caught up and arrive to be "with them in the clouds".
 
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Seville90210

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I am enjoying the discussion and the different opinions but I remember:
Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

I like to hear your opinions too from time to time as I know the truth is in you, and your desires are in His words. Those are great verses as well, especially from the books you got them from: Isaiah 64 and 1st Corinthians. God only reveals His mysteries to those who honestly loves and abide in His truth. Blessed are you Handmaid, your eyes see what others cannot.
 
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The dead are already in the clouds...the living are caught up to be with them who are in the clouds. In no way can the wording mean the dead and living are both caught up plus we know the dead are in heaven not on the Earth.

For Heavens sake they are catching the same bus on a one way ride to Heaven within the context of the Last Trumpet on that Day.

Yes/No?
 
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