Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

[holo]

I do not play the game of trying to prove God exists to the rebel sinner. I call you to repent of your sins and trust in Jesus Christ.

But beliving in God is pretty much a prerequisite to trust in Jesus...

 

[holo]

I don't verify the truth in the sense you are employing, as I am not the Judge of God's truth. He reveals it to me by His grace. God is not required to meet my evaluation standards.

So how do you know it's God? Don't you have any evaluation standard? Any thought that pops into your mind could be God?

 

[DogmaHunter]

@DogmaHunter You really believe faith is useless.

In general, yes.

Faith even in the non religious sense is useful. Having faith that you will accomplish difficult goals is useless?

Equivocation fallacy.

That's not blind faith.
That's trust in my abilities, knowledge of my limits, based on past accomplishments

If the knowledge of my limits or abilities lead me to believe that I won't accomplish said task, I wouldn't have "faith" that I could.

If faith was useless and no one had it then nothing spectacular would be accomplished.

That's simply false.

You need faith even if you aren't religious to be successful in life, because what does the atheist do when life goes bad?

Again, you are engaging in an equivocation fallacy.
The meaning of words can change when used in different contexts.

Religious faith, is "blind belief".
The faith you speak of here, is actually knowledge-based trust. That's very different.

There's reasonable and unreasonable faith/trust/hope.

The faith you require for religion, is unreasonable.
The faith you require to believe you are able to run a marathon, is very different. For starters, people have succeeded in running marathons for thousands of years. So already right out of the gates, you have confirmed demonstrable precedents of humans being physically able of exactly that thing. Assuming you are a non-handicapped healthy person, right out the gates, there isn't a single reason why you wouldn't be able to train up and do exactly what millions of people have done before you.

Religious faith, is simple blind belief based on no verifiable evidence, without any precendents. It's just blind belief of very extra-ordinary claims none of which can be verified in any way whatsoever... It's not even possible to discern if the claim itself is even only half reasonable or plausible.

He either relies on faith he will make it or he quits life.

I always find it so funny when people like tell me how I apparantly think about things and stuff, as if you know better then me how I approach life that I know it myself.

I think it's a very impolite thing to do.

So even a "rational" "reasonable" being like yourself should be able to see the utility of faith.

No still don't.
Your attempt at convincing me was invalid, since you invoked an entirely different meaning of "faith" and then pretended as if it was the same thing.

 

[Ken-1122]

This is a false premise. The only knowledge we have is from God. And truth is not defined by our own self, since we did not self-create.

No; that's YOUR claim; not mine. I don't have knowledge from God, my knowledge comes from within. BTW I wasn't created, I was born.

Then even with the false premise, you are claiming you can't know truth at all.

No; YOU are claiming to not know the truth. I usually do know what is the truth vs a lie.

This is the false premise repeated again. We don't establish truth. God does.

That only applies to YOU! I use reason and logic to establish the truth; not your idea of God.

Since this is based on a false premise, this statement is also false.

In other words, you have no way of knowing if he is the truth.

God never commands blind faith (i.e. without knowledge of Him). God has revealed Himself to mankind and He can be known, so it is not blind faith by any means.

So answer my question then; how do you know this revelation is the truth? How do you know what you call God is not lying to you?

 

[Ken-1122]

This is a false premise. The only knowledge we have is from God. And truth is not defined by our own self, since we did not self-create.

No; that's YOUR claim; not mine. I don't have knowledge from God, my knowledge comes from within. BTW I wasn't created, I was born.

Then even with the false premise, you are claiming you can't know truth at all.

No; YOU are claiming to not know the truth. I usually do know what is the truth vs a lie.

This is the false premise repeated again. We don't establish truth. God does.

That only applies to YOU! I use reason and logic to establish the truth; not your idea of God.

Since this is based on a false premise, this statement is also false.

In other words, you have no way of know if he is the truth.

God never commands blind faith (i.e. without knowledge of Him). God has revealed Himself to mankind and He can be known, so it is not blind faith by any means.

So answer my question then; how do you know this revelation is the truth? How do you know God is not lying to you?

 

[Ken-1122]

Are they equally credible?

To a person like you who believes in one but not the other; no. To a person like me who believes in neither; YES!

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I'll give you atheists credit, you fight hard for it. And have been able to articulate it in a way so that God can't exist. Well done.

 

[Desk trauma]

I'll give you atheists credit, you fight hard for it. And have been able to articulate it in a way so that God can't exist. Well done.

Welcome to the dark side, we have cookies.

 

[MoneyGuy]

The word of God is folly to those who are perishing but for those of us who are being saved, it is the word of God.

You said that there is no such thing as an atheist. That’s absurd and your reply has nothing to do with your clearly incorrect statement.

 

[Strathos]

I'll give you atheists credit, you fight hard for it. And have been able to articulate it in a way so that God can't exist. Well done.

They usually don't fall into the trap of saying that God can't exist.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

They usually don't fall into the trap of saying that God can't exist.

But they create a box so small that God can't fit in.

 

[jayem]

But they create a box so small that God can't fit in.

I could accept the concept that there is an as yet undetected force of nature. A force that could create the matter/energy that makes up the universe. You could call it "God" if you like. But it would certainly be an impersonal, natural entity. Something akin to gravity, or the strong nuclear force--a purely natural phenomenon, but one that has not been identified. It has no awareness of life on our planet, and it has absolutely no concern with, or influence on, the affairs of human beings.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I could accept the concept that there is an as yet undetected force of nature. A force that could create the matter/energy that makes up the universe. You could call it "God" if you like. But it would certainly be an impersonal, natural entity. Something akin to gravity, or the strong nuclear force--a purely natural phenomenon that has not been identified. It has no awareness of life on our planet, and it has absolutely no concern with, or influence on, the affairs of human beings.

And that's why God can't exist in your world. He can't be personal.

 

[jayem]

And that's why God can't exist in your world. He can't be personal.

But think about it. Other than an ingrained cultural expectation, why does God have to be a personal entity? Why can't God just be a force of nature?

 

[Ken-1122]

I already address this. Truth does not come from within me ("on your own"). It comes solely from God.



I don't verify the truth in the sense you are employing, as I am not the Judge of God's truth. He reveals it to me by His grace. God is not required to meet my evaluation standards.

So if the Devil had a connection to you the way God does, do you agree you would be just as convinced he is the truth?

 

[Ken-1122]

Not much of a difference there. Either way it is sinful man thinking that he can define the terms of truth and reality, rather than the Creator.

No God/Gods exist:
In order to make this claim, I believe the Atheist must first explain what type of being he would consider God/Gods.
If I said “Unicorns don’t exist,” everybody will know what I am talking about because everyone agrees Unicorns are horse looking creatures with a horn sticking out of his head. If I said Santa Clause doesn’t exist, everybody will know what I’m talking about because everyone agrees Santa is a fat man in a red suit who lives in the North Pole. But if I say God doesn’t exist, nobody agrees on what God is; some people believe God’s are born and die; others say God is eternal. There are those who worship inanimate objects like the Sun, or Nature, some people worship people as real as you and I. Haile Selassie (Former president of Ethiopia) was/is worshipped by some Rastafarians, Kumari is worshipped by some Hindu Sects and is still alive today (Haile Selassie died in the 1970’s). So obviously it would be foolish for an atheist to proclaim nothing called God actually exists because there is proof Nature, the Sun, Kumari and other people/things people worship exists.

I don’t believe in God
This is simply stating whatever claims are made about God; I don’t believe the claims. This is the position I hold. I will recognize whatever it is you choose to call God may exist, but I don’t call him God. If you call Haile Selassie, Jesus, or Kumari God, I just see them as people like you and I who exist/existed but were not God. In theory I could believe Allah, or Yahweh, exist (perhaps as an advanced evolved being from another planet who visited Earth long ago) but as long as I don’t call him God I am atheist. When I say I don't believe in God, I am saying I have an idea of what I would consider God, and I am convinced this being does not exist.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'll give you atheists credit, you fight hard for it. And have been able to articulate it in a way so that God can't exist. Well done.

How does my articulating prevent God from existing?

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

How does my articulating prevent God from existing?

It prevents him from existing in your world framework. The burden of proof you require isn't going to happen from the christian God. If a personal God isn't possible for atheists like you and jayem and who else requires God to submit to your ridiculous requirements of him even allowing himself to be proven scientifically then he could never exist in the highly restricted requirements. You are asking him to do something that i think anyone who knows the bible can see why he would rather remain outside of being discovered through science. God wants you to discover him yourself, maybe some of you will. But it's not going to come from science. And to require it from him is to try to make the one who requires submission, to submit to your will and that's never happening. He doesn't owe you the discovery of his existence through science. Yes you don't owe him your faith either. And whatever happens because of this will happen, and we'll just have to see.

 

[Ken-1122]

It prevents him from existing in your world framework. The burden of proof you require isn't going to happen from the christian God. If a personal God isn't possible for atheists like you and jayem and who else requires God to submit to your ridiculous requirements of him even allowing himself to be proven scientifically then he could never exist in the highly restricted requirements. You are asking him to do something that i think anyone who knows the bible can see why he would rather remain outside of being discovered through science. God wants you to discover him yourself, maybe some of you will. But it's not going to come from science. And to require it from him is to try to make the one who requires submission, to submit to your will and that's never happening. He doesn't owe you the discovery of his existence through science. Yes you don't owe him your faith either. And whatever happens because of this will happen, and we'll just have to see.

If you were God, wouldn't you make your existence obvious?

 

[Strathos]

If you were God, wouldn't you make your existence obvious?

People will find any excuse to deny anything, no matter how obvious.