Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

[Bible Highlighter]

Where did Moses get the law? (from God)

The Law of Moses was put away when Jesus died upon the cross. We are to follow the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers now. Yes, some of the laws in the Old have been repeated in the New Testament, but we are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jason believes Jesus died at Calvary to annul a righteousness of obeying law that could be perfectly obeyed(the legalistic law)

He takes it one step further, as I understand it.
The cross covers all previous sin, but then you are on your own to earn it the rest of the way. And then be judged by works. What a disastrous belief.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It does not therefore depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy Rom9:16

Right, and why does Paul say that? What is the context?

Israel (See Romans 9:1-6).
Israel as a nation rejected their Messiah and they follow the Law of Moses.

 

[Saint Steven]

What? No. Grace is when we receive mercy when we are seeking God's forgiveness over the sins we have done. Grace is not a reward in doing evil. Oh boy. What you believe is very scary. Do you understand the difference between the good guys vs. the bad guys when you go out into the world or when you turn on the news or when you watch a movie? The bad guys are bad because they do bad things. If a bad guy were to reward people for doing evil, that would be.... evil. How on Earth do you not see that?

The gospel according to Wyatt Earp. What next?

 

[daydreamer40]

He takes it one step further, as I understand it.
The cross covers all previous sin, but then you are on your own to earn it the rest of the way. And then be judged by works. What a disastrous belief.

Absolutely. In response to what I posted of the Pharisees, he quoted Jesus words concerning the higher points of the law, where is the love and mercy in a message of: Perform perfect or be cast into hell?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He takes it one step further, as I understand it.
The cross covers all previous sin, but then you are on your own to earn it the rest of the way. And then be judged by works. What a disastrous belief.

God's grace can be there for a person if they sin again (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). But this is not a mere paying of lip service over and over and over again (with a person thinking they can cheat the system by getting away with sin). There has to be an eventual change in their life at some point where they walk uprightly with their Lord (See 1 John 1:7, and 1 John 2:3-4).

 

[daydreamer40]

Right, and why does Paul say that? What is the context?

Israel (See Romans 9:1-6).
Israel as a nation rejected their Messiah and they follow the Law of Moses.

I'm afraid I am not impressed by your contexts

 

[daydreamer40]

Imagine a child being raised by parents, who threw them out of the house everytime they infringed the rules, and wouldn't let them back in until they earnestly repented. Horrifying isn't it? Yet that is how some teach God treats his children

 

[1213]

Why should Jesus pay twice for your mistakes?

Good question. I think the payment idea is not best understanding of the Bible. Jesus gave right to forgive sins to his disciples and he also forgave sins before he died. That is why I think death is not necessary for to forgive sins.


The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

So, if person makes mistakes, disciples of Jesus have the right to forgive them. And there is no requirement of sacrifice.

But, it can be said Jesus died because of our sins, when it means, he died, because he did the job and declared words that God had commanded him to say, words that can give the forgiveness.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The gospel according to Wyatt Earp. What next?

Let's not kid each other here. You are not teaching the gospel that is according to the Bible. You even admitted that you don't know how to explain many verses I have put forth to you. This lets me know that you don't understand God's Word in what it says. In fact, you probably don't know that God has chosen us to salvation through the:

(a) Sanctification of the Spirit
(b) Belief of the truth (Jesus is the truth - Jhn 14:6).​

Whereby it is the call of the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

Again, this is another passage that refutes your belief.
But you don't care about that. Just chock up this passage as being a mystery and keep believing what you believe because it is comforting.

 

[daydreamer40]

I really don't know how some can claim to be without sin. John summed them up well:

If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

Spoken in the present tense to believers, John included himself in the we

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Imagine a child being raised by parents, who threw them out of the house everytime they infringed the rules, and wouldn't let them back in until they earnestly repented. Horrifying isn't it? Yet that is how some teach God treats his children

If a child were to murder, or do other kinds of horrible sins (that are as equally bad), they would be thrown out by the law itself. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, when the son returned home, and he repented to the father, the father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again" two times. This was speaking in spiritual terms. In fact, this was one of a series of three parables and the them of all is repentance or seeking God's forgiveness (Which relates to salvation).

 

[Saint Steven]

Good question. I think the payment idea is not best understanding of the Bible. Jesus gave right to forgive sins to his disciples and he also forgave sins before he died. That is why I think death is not necessary for to forgive sins.


The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

So, if person makes mistakes, disciples of Jesus have the right to forgive them. And there is no requirement of sacrifice.

But, it can be said Jesus died because of our sins, when it means, he died, because he did the job and declared words that God had commanded him to say, words that can give the forgiveness.

The Atonement is the complete payment on our behalf. He paid in full what we owe. And we cannot do anything to add to or diminish that finished work.

 

[daydreamer40]

If a child were to murder, or do other kinds of horrible sins (that are as equally bad), they would be thrown out by the law itself. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, when the son returned home, and he repented to the father, the father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again" two times. This was speaking in spiritual terms. In fact, this was one of a series of three parables and the them of all is repentance or seeking God's forgiveness (Which relates to salvation).

There is no love or mercy in your message Jason, you know, the higher points of the law. Im afraid you know nothing of the great love, mercy and compassion God has for his children. No love or mercy in a message of: Perform perfect or be cast into hell.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I really don't know how some can claim to be without sin. John summed them up well:

If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

Spoken in the present tense to believers, John included himself in the we

John was warning the brethren (speaking in the "we" as the body of believers) about those who were trying to seduce them.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." (1 John 2:26).

1 John 1:8 is a gnostic belief that John was warning the brethren about. How so? Well, I am pretty sure we both agree that we both sinned in the past as a part of our old life. Yet, 1 John 1:10 says that if we say we have not sinned (past tense) we make Him (God) out to be a liar, etc. So both 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 are speaking of a gnostic belief from those who were trying to seduce the brethren. In fact, if your interpretation was true on 1 John 1:8, then you would have a contradiction in 1 John 2:4 that says that if a person were to say they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

 

[daydreamer40]

John was warning the brethren (speaking in the "we" as the body of believers) about those who were trying to seduce them.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." (1 John 2:26).

1 John 1:8 is a gnostic belief that John was warning the brethren about. How so? Well, I am pretty sure we both agree that we both sinned in the past as a part of our old life. Yet, 1 John 1:10 says that if we say we have not sinned (past tense) we make Him (God) out to be a liar, etc. So both 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 are speaking of a gnostic belief from those who were trying to seduce the brethren. In fact, if your interpretation was true on 1 John 1:8, then you would have a contradiction in 1 John 2:4 that says that if a person were to say they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

John was speaking in the present tense to believers, he included himself in the we.

If you want to do sommersaults with what is plainly written, sobeit, but I will not aid you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no love or mercy in your message Jason, you know, the higher points of the law. Im afraid you know nothing of the great love, mercy and compassion God has for his children. No love or mercy in a message of: Perform perfect or be cast into hell.

I am sure a Universal Salvationist would can say the same thing. But what they say would not be true. A believer who does evil with them thinking they are going to be rewarded with Heaven despite their evil are in for a big surprise. Well, it shouldn't be a surprise. Folks should know that God is good and He will stand by those who do good and not evil because God is holy, righteous, and good.

 

[Saint Steven]

Let's not kid each other here. You are not teaching the gospel that is according to the Bible. You even admitted that you don't know how to explain many verses I have put forth to you. This lets me know that you don't understand God's Word in what it says. In fact, you probably don't know that God has chosen us to salvation through the:

(a) Sanctification of the Spirit
(b) Belief of the truth (Jesus is the truth - Jhn 14:6).​

Whereby it is the call of the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

Again, this is another passage that refutes your belief.
But you don't care about that. Just chock up this passage as being a mystery and keep believing what you believe because it is comforting.

Do you claim to be able to explain the whole Bible? (nope)
Then why do you charge me with being honest in "admitting" my human limitations as if it some sort of crime?

Just to be clear, I'm fine with us continuing to kid each other here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John was speaking in the present tense to believers, he included himself in the we.

If you want to do sommersaults with what is plainly written, sobeit, but I will not aid you.

I don't think you really read what I had written. Please go back and read it please. What about 1 John 2:26? What about 1 John 1:10?

 

[daydreamer40]

I am sure a Universal Salvationist would can say the same thing. But what they say would not be true. A believer who does evil with them thinking they are going to be rewarded with Heaven despite their evil are in for a big surprise. Well, it shouldn't be a surprise. Folks should know that God is good and He will stand by those who do good and not evil because God is holy, righteous, and good.

The measure you use to judge others, will be used to judge you Matt7:2