My Jesus Challenge

[Robban]

It shows.

If you have not began your life with war you would not know.

 

[Vollbracht]

If you have not began your life with war you would not know.

Not know what? God? HaShem?

 

[Vollbracht]

Not know what? God? HaShem?

Shallow B.S. that says the only way to know YHWH is to begin ones life with war.

 

[Vollbracht]

Shallow B.S. that says the only way to know YHWH is to begin ones life with war.

But what do you care about HaShem?

 

[Vollbracht]

But what do you care about HaShem?

Not enough to go to synagogue, apparently.

 

[Robban]

But what do you care about HaShem?

More than you would ever know.

But I,m not into boasting.

Stor i orden liten på jorden
big in words little on earth.

 

[Vollbracht]

More than you would ever know.

But I,m not into boasting.

Stor i orden liten på jorden
big in words little on earth.

Then act like it, in speech, Hebrew! Be bold knowing He is in control, as He was with Moses!

 

[Carbon]

Jesus was one of the following:

1. Mythical person, historicized: Mythicist view
2. Historical person, mythicized: Liberal Christian / mainstream scholarly view
3. Mythical person, not historicized: Postmodern view
4. Historical person, not mythicized: Conservative Christian view

1 or 2 are most likely, either way the person Jesus as represented in Christian and pre-Christian scriptures is a creation of (often very smart) human minds. The remixing of the Homeric epics and chiastic structures in the Gospel of Mark as two examples are really impressive as literature.

Except it's not that simple. A lot of the enduring content of the Jesus stories is the product of unconscious selection processes. The success of gentile over Jewish Christianity for example was the inevitable result of political realities of the 1st century, outside of any one person's design or control.

 

[AV1611VET]

1 or 2 are most likely, either way the person Jesus as represented in Christian and pre-Christian scriptures is a creation of (often very smart) human minds.

Human minds that allowed themselves to be burned at the stake, crucified upside-down, flayed alive, exiled to Patmos, stoned to death, impaled by a spear, and beheaded for being so smart?

 

[awitch]

Human minds that allowed themselves to be burned at the stake, crucified upside-down, flayed alive, exiled to Patmos, stoned to death, impaled by a spear, and beheaded for being so smart?

Going back to what I think Jane was trying to say, they may have been convinced that what they believed was the truth, but that doesn't necessitate that it really is.

 

[Carbon]

Human minds that allowed themselves to be burned at the stake, crucified upside-down, flayed alive, exiled to Patmos, stoned to death, impaled by a spear, and beheaded for being so smart?

We actually don't have any evidence this happened to any of the gospel writers.

The John who wrote Revelation was however exiled from the Bible by the first few generations of Christians. Still is exiled by some

 

[AV1611VET]

Going back to what I think Jane was trying to say, they may have been convinced that what they believed was the truth, but that doesn't necessitate that it really is.

Let's go over this again, shall we?

A guy named Matthew picks up a quill and writes that Wise Men came to Jerusalem and made Herod look stupid.

He also writes that Herod killed every child in Jerusalem from two years old and down.

Why would a person who read Matthew's account, get saved, then later be martyred for believing what Matthew wrote?

Does that make sense to you?

I was born in 1954.

Say someone wrote that the Priesident killed every child in America two years old and under in 1955.

Why wouldn't I come forward and pwn that guy?

Even moreso, why would I let myself get martyred for believing what that guy wrote?

Can't you see it?

Everyone walking around in Israel in Herod's time:

"Hi, there. This is my son. He's 1. Nice looking corpse, isn't he?"

 

[AV1611VET]

We actually don't have any evidence this happened to any of the gospel writers.

I don't either.

 

[awitch]

Why would a person who read Matthew's account, get saved, then later be martyred for believing what Matthew wrote?

He if truly believed he would be rewarded with heaven, why wouldn't he?

 

[AV1611VET]

He if truly believed he would be rewarded with heaven, why wouldn't he?

Where did he get that idea?

If Matthew is correct, then he should be dead.

The fact that he's alive and well shows Matthew was wrong.

 

[dlamberth]

I think a wonder of wonders will come to pass. What will continue to unfold will be our understanding of ourselves and how we create. We will shift because it’s what we do.That can happen individually, and does, or on mass.

You reminded me of something Teilhard De Chardin wrote:
"The day will come when, after harnessing space, the winds, the tides, and gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, we shall have discovered fire."

 

[the iconoclast]

*shrug*

Well, if there was a personal deity who interfered with human civilisation in a manner described by the various mythologies and religious stories, I'd expect reality to establish and reflect that interference.

Hey hey jane the cause of great distress and annoyance to the conservative.

When you say interfere, do you mean
To intervene in a situation without invitation or necessity, or do you mean to prevent (a process or activity) from continuing or being carried out properly?

What interference would you like?

In case of a non-literalist deity, I'd still expect a universe that corresponds more closely to a reality mapped out by a benevolent architect.

What reality would you suggest be mapped at by this benevolent architect?

What do you mean by the universe mapped out to reality?

As it is, you need a LOT of rationalisations and justifications to somehow avoid the Euthypro-dilemma,

Socrates never floated my boat. What do you mean here when you say avoid the euthyphro dilemma?

and I would say concluding that things are NOT run by an invisible superbeing just makes vastly more sense and requires less mental gymnastics.

Really? My position is laxed and quite easy. God created the universe! 4 words!
Lets put your mental gymnastics to work my dear.

Briefly explain the formation of the universe without referring to a catalyst?

While there are pick-and-choose believers who treat religion the way others treat fashion ,I'd say it is a more unconscious process for most.

Done or existing without one realizing?

Do you think this response is a form of a true scotsman?

How do you know it is an unconscious process? One of my experiences was quite vivid and i was totally aware. Ask?

Historically speaking, virtually everything that wasn't readily explainable with the methods and tools available at the time was attributed to the supernatural: lightning, diseases, earthquakes, the lunar cycle, monetary inflation - you name it. Only after we stopped believing them to be supernatural events did we find out how they really worked.

Lets brack track my friend.

Bane - "Not much, apart from a chance to better grasp all those gaps in our understanding of reality that were obfuscated by "explaining" them away with God/Magic/the Supernatural."

Do you have complete trust in the thoughts and reasoning of man?

Do you believe everything can be explained?

Nowadays, a good example would be the nature of consciousness and the psyche.

From an evolutionary pov, what is the point of a human being conscious?

To myself, to the people around me, to life on this planet.

Why? Because no being is an island, because cooperation is what makes us human in the best sense of the word, and because we all depend on each other.

Why are you responsible to yourself, to your neighbours and to the planet ie Who are you morally accountable for your behaviour? And what happens if you are not responsible?

Why does working together to the same end make us human and different from the animals? Are humans unique and special?

It may seem as if unethical behaviour is profitable for the individual engaging in it (provided they are not caught), but even that is mostly wrong.

Why is it wrong? How do you know its wrong?

Yes, a cruel dictator may die a rich man, in his sleep - but he'd die a cruel dictator.

Who is he accountable to for being cruel?

How do we know this dictator was cruel? By what standards do you meter cruel?

Let's start with the second question: I know that the same way I know Darth Vader is a villain in Star Wars, even though I'm perfectly sure that menacing figure was never anything more than a fiction.

So your line of reasoning, 'darth vader is fiction so therefore God must be as well, darth vader is a villainso therfore God must be as well'. Does this sound rational?

Iam willing to give you another shot at that.

As for the first question: I'm not suggesting the Christian God is a dictator, because I don't think He's out there ruling the universe.

So what was with that whole star wars thing? Please excuse me my dear, Im confused.

Well heads up. He is and He wants to have a relationship with you.

We want you!!!! What is stopping you, be honest? What would happen to your life if you came to Christ?

I am, however, sometimes pointing out that the way some believers conceive of their deity (including scriptural passages from some books of the Bible) certainly PAINT that character in just such an unfavourable light.

How do they conceive their deity? Is this anotherform of a true scotsman?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

1 John 4:16
We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God is light and love, and He has the right to judge in accordance with His rules. God is fair and just.

You are guilty of misrepresentation and clutching at straws - strawman. like the pun

Please be careful you may want to read up on logical fallacies as you seem to commit a few.

Here is a link
Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies

The Calvinist/Reformed God as portrayed by the preacher Jonathan Edwards in the sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", for example, most certainly qualifies as a monstrous character.

Show me my diamond. What did he say that has alarmed you?

Of course. The abhorrence we associate with murder is such a universal building block of social species that even non-human species exhibit it.

What non human species show abhorrence?

Sadly - as with our own species - it is often only extended to members of our own group,

How do you know this? Are you making a blanket statement my dear?

whereas the killing of outsiders can be framed as an heroic act ("war heroes", "freedom fighters", etc.) in many societies and world views.

Are you a pacifist?

Cheers i look forward to your replies. Give me something good!

 

[TheOldWays]

No pizza party after the game, kids. It makes the game even more precious, and I want you out there doing your best as a team!

it's all about living in the present moment and creating a reality you prefer. not wasting the current moment and creating a negative reality by hoping that after death things will get better.

 

[AV1611VET]

it's all about living in the present moment and creating a reality you prefer.

The trouble is, with all these realities floating around, two of them are bound to clash.

Such was the case when Klebold & Harris' realities clashed with their fellow students' respective realities.

And what about the Burning Monk?

Did he get tired of "living in the present moment" and decide to create a legacy?

If so, then it's not all about living in the present moment, is it?

Or was he an exception?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

What do you mean here when you say avoid the euthyphro dilemma?

Do you want a re-phrasing of the dilemma and the theodicy problem?
- Preventable evil exists.
- Therefore, any deity that exists is either a) not all-powerful and all-knowing, or b) not all-good.

Well, it goes further than that, by asking: "Does God do good because it's just, or is it good because God does it?"

The problem of evil is not the only thing that makes literal, personal deities an astronomically unlikely possibility in my book, but it certainly does not help that any attempt at reconciling the world as-is with the image of an all-powerful, benign deity takes more special pleading and exceptional rationalisations than mapping the planetary orbits under the assumption that the Earth is at the centre of everything.

Briefly explain the formation of the universe without referring to a catalyst?

An expanding singularity kick-started the space-time-continuum as we know it. Since space and time are inextricably linked, there was neither a "before" nor an "elsewhere".

Do you have complete trust in the thoughts and reasoning of man?

Of course not. That is why we've got the scientific method, because we KNOW people will mess up.
Do you have complete trust in the thoughts and reasoning of ancient civilizations who attributed their cultural peculiarities to a deity?

Do you believe everything can be explained?

Ultimately, yes, though certainly not immediately and all at once.

From an evolutionary pov, what is the point of a human being conscious?

Evolutionary biology enables us to figure out how species evolve. Its purpose is not to assign meaning to consciousness. There's such a thing as evolutionary psychology, explaining how empathy and reciprocity are vital, favourable traits in a social species like our own, and also explaining how anti-social behaviour is requited with negative feelings, but that's a different topic.

So your line of reasoning, 'darth vader is fiction so therefore God must be as well, darth vader is a villainso therfore God must be as well'. Does this sound rational?

Of course not. It is a ridiculous attempt to put words into my mouth, and everybody reading this will see right through it. At this point, I don't even give you the benefit of the doubt that you just misunderstood, because you could easily see what question of yours I answered here.
But for the sake of others, let's explain it once more.
"Why do you consider (some depictions of) god evil if you do believe said god exists?"
"Because characters do not have to be real in order to qualify as evil. Darth Vader is not real, yet it's easy to see that he's a villain. In the same manner, gods as literary characters can qualify as good or evil even if they never existed."

God is light and love, and He has the right to judge in accordance with His rules. God is fair and just.

With such quote mining, even Stalin would look like a saint - especially if you used propaganda written by his followers to establish this. Deeds speak louder than words. The biblical deity as depicted in the Pentateuch is capricious, self-aggrandizing, and acts like an ancient middle-eastern king, brutally murdering thousands at the slightest whiff of suspected insubordination or disrespect. If Joshua's conquest of the holy land was more than a historical myth, it would qualify as the first recorded large-scale genocide and ethnic cleansing in history. They didn't even allow LIVESTOCK to live for fear of becoming "impure".

Show me my diamond.

I take it that English is not your first language, for otherwise that would mean you intentionally used such epithets to insult and patronize me - for that is how such excessive flourishes come across, "my dearest sugarcake".
I'm not your anything.

Are you a pacifist?

More of a cosmopolitan. The life of a foreigner is just as valuable to me as that of a fellow countryman, and there is no such thing as a "just war" - at best, there's a regrettable necessity for self-defense in some cases.