Autumn Equinox

[Chesterton]

The fact that you even have to ask that question saddens me.

That depends on the holiday and the tradition of the practitioner.

If you can't answer the question, you could have just said "I don't know".

 

[Chesterton]

Then what are secular holidays if they aren't holy? If you have a better word then by all means, but on average I think people would know what's being referred to. Some pagans do think of them as literally holy days, I remain undecided on that.

Well, secular recognition of "holidays" varies. The 4th of July isn't religious. Mother's Day isn't religious. I understand the motivation for 4th of July and Mother's Day. I don't understand the motivation to celebrate an equinox.

Well we definitely depend on agriculture, no argument there, but the majority of people do jobs that do not explicitly depend on the seasons.

True, but their lives depend on the seasons, if they want to eat. I've heard critics of Christianity complain that it's mercenary to worship God because you want to go to heaven. How much mercenary is it to bow down before "nature" which gives you food so you can live here and now on Earth? Seems much more vulgar, more selfish, and to be blunt, just stupid, since nature is mindless and doesn't care.

I agree that dates are less important than concepts but I'm surprised you'd say you can't find a significant idea related to the equinox.

How about the constant of change? In the northern hemisphere, fall is a time of cooling, increased darkness and the beginning of plants dying off. Some see parallels with aging and reflection. Others take it as a general time of thanksgiving for what they have. Some take it as a time of balance (especially if you live in a latitude where dark and light start to become equal at this time of year) in life; between work and play or maybe other specific things they are dealing with. I'm just spitballing a few ideas.Every faith and person is different.

Everything you say here is scientific. It's just what stuff does. Nothing worthy of celebration or veneration or anything. You might as well celebrate gravity and earthquakes.

Of course there's the timeless tug of war between naturalism and supernaturalism but I think naturalists can still see beauty and awe in nature without ascribing supernatural holiness to it. I think Carl Sagan is good example of a man who could put that awe into words. There are Atheistic Pagans who blur the lines quite a bit on this subject and it can get quite messy, though. (Additional reading)

Yes, beauty and awe are messy concepts, unless you attribute them to a Mind which enables you to perceive beauty, and which therefore inspires awe. Otherwise, they are simply irrational evolutionary by-products, which renders them self-contradictory - they are what they aren't, and they aren't what they are. One of many reasons I became a Christian.

 

[awitch]

If you can't answer the question, you could have just said "I don't know".

I hope you're not expecting a list of every Pagan's holidays and respective religious significance.
I could tell you mine but I don't want to be flagged for promotion, and I'm only interested in answering those who are sincerely curious.

 

[Chesterton]

I hope you're not expecting a list of every Pagan's holidays and respective religious significance.

I am.

I could tell you mine but I don't want to be flagged for promotion, and I'm only interested in answering those who are sincerely curious.

I am sincerely curious. What rational person wouldn't be curious about why people celebrate natural occurrences like equinoxes? Do you celebrate other natural occurrences such as bowel movements?

 

[dlamberth]

If you can't answer the question, you could have just said "I don't know".

I can answer for myself. I'm just genuinely surprised by your question. Maybe I'm misunderstanding so for clarity I have to ask, do you have a sense of sacredness of the Earth?

 

[dlamberth]

I am sincerely curious. What rational person wouldn't be curious about why people celebrate natural occurrences like equinoxes? Do you celebrate other natural occurrences such as bowel movements?

You know...that's not nice at all.

 

[Chesterton]

I can answer for myself.

Then please do so.

I'm just genuinely surprised by your question. Maybe I'm misunderstanding so for clarity I have to ask, do you have a sense of sacredness of the Earth?

Yes I do. The Earth is sacred, food is sacred, sex is sacred. Everything is sacred because the holy God created it. Funny thing is, because of Christianity, I suspect I'm much more pagan than pagans are. At least I should say, there is a logic and rationale to my worship which pagans seek for but lack.

You know...that's not nice at all.

Why?

 

[awitch]

You know...that's not nice at all.

It's OK, I forgive him.

 

[dlamberth]

Then please do so.

For myself, it's in this Creation that I find God. Which makes all of this natural world pretty sacred for a person like myself.

 

[Chesterton]

For myself, it's in this Creation that I find God. Which makes all of this natural world pretty sacred for a person like myself.

You know, there's a legal concept known as "void for vagueness" which I think pretty much applies to all paganism after the advent of Jesus Christ.

 

[dlamberth]

You know, there's a legal concept known as "void for vagueness" which I think pretty much applies to all paganism after the advent of Jesus Christ.

I don't know how that applies to my post. But OK.

 

[Zoness]

Well, secular recognition of "holidays" varies. The 4th of July isn't religious. Mother's Day isn't religious. I understand the motivation for 4th of July and Mother's Day. I don't understand the motivation to celebrate an equinox.

I guess we just differ on this, then. *shrug*

True, but their lives depend on the seasons, if they want to eat. I've heard critics of Christianity complain that it's mercenary to worship God because you want to go to heaven. How much mercenary is it to bow down before "nature" which gives you food so you can live here and now on Earth? Seems much more vulgar, more selfish, and to be blunt, just stupid, since nature is mindless and doesn't care.

If you believe in Christianity and believe god will send you to hell for not conforming to a strict belief system, it makes sense that you'd follow it for supernatural self-preservation so while I see where that criticism comes from, the feeling seems pretty rational to me. I don't agree with the complaint on its face.

As far as I can tell, the here and now is the best that I get, so it makes sense that I am happy for my station in life that, let's be honest, came mostly through luck: I didn't choose to be born white, American and in a well-off family but I definitely lucked out in that predestination as it gave me the resources to pursue my goals. I think for me its less about specific things in nature but rather I'm happy that I lucked out, for lack of a better way to put it? It's an interesting thought, I'll have to pursue it more: but in a nutshell I am happy to exist.

Everything you say here is scientific. It's just what stuff does. Nothing worthy of celebration or veneration or anything. You might as well celebrate gravity and earthquakes.

Maybe you're right but eh, humans find meaning in the meaningless. I dare argue that's a lot of what religion is; seeing signs where they probably don't exist. From a rationalist's perspective its a weakness, but for now I embrace it. Otherwise why post here when I could spend my time discussing secular philosophy elsewhere?

Yes, beauty and awe are messy concepts, unless you attribute them to a Mind which enables you to perceive beauty, and which therefore inspires awe. Otherwise, they are simply irrational evolutionary by-products, which renders them self-contradictory - they are what they aren't, and they aren't what they are. One of many reasons I became a Christian.

The idea of perception and the hard problem of consciousness is some of the ideas that have pushed me in the direction of Panpsychism as a theory of mind rather than a hard, mechanical, deterministic physicalism. Looking outward, the rest of the universe appears to work in that mechanical way. However it doesn't always satisfy the deep yearning people have. At the end of the day, we're all just hoping for answers to hard questions and coming to grips with death. I count myself among those trying to do an honest search. Who knows where it'll take me. If I'm lucky and get a long life, I can spend a lot of time figuring it out!

 

[Chesterton]

I guess we just differ on this, then. *shrug*



If you believe in Christianity and believe god will send you to hell for not conforming to a strict belief system, it makes sense that you'd follow it for supernatural self-preservation so while I see where that criticism comes from, the feeling seems pretty rational to me. I don't agree with the complaint on its face.

As far as I can tell, the here and now is the best that I get, so it makes sense that I am happy for my station in life that, let's be honest, came mostly through luck: I didn't choose to be born white, American and in a well-off family but I definitely lucked out in that predestination as it gave me the resources to pursue my goals. I think for me its less about specific things in nature but rather I'm happy that I lucked out, for lack of a better way to put it? It's an interesting thought, I'll have to pursue it more: but in a nutshell I am happy to exist.



Maybe you're right but eh, humans find meaning in the meaningless. I dare argue that's a lot of what religion is; seeing signs where they probably don't exist. From a rationalist's perspective its a weakness, but for now I embrace it. Otherwise why post here when I could spend my time discussing secular philosophy elsewhere?



The idea of perception and the hard problem of consciousness is some of the ideas that have pushed me in the direction of Panpsychism as a theory of mind rather than a hard, mechanical, deterministic physicalism. Looking outward, the rest of the universe appears to work in that mechanical way. However it doesn't always satisfy the deep yearning people have. At the end of the day, we're all just hoping for answers to hard questions and coming to grips with death. I count myself among those trying to do an honest search. Who knows where it'll take me. If I'm lucky and get a long life, I can spend a lot of time figuring it out!

Okay. Well, I wish you a Merry Equinox.

 

[MehGuy]

I don't but it sounds somewhat appealing. I really need to get back into some sort of spirituality (empathy overclocking) again. Even still being an atheist.

 

[Chesterton]

Q: What do you serve at an equinox party?
A: MD 50/50.

(And I'm actually sorry I wasted the electrons and pixels it took to post that joke.)

 

[LaSorcia]

Hi all, do any of you celebrate the autumn equinox in any special way? Can be religious or secular.

I put away my air conditioners and get out my duvets. Then I pray for 8 hours whilst eating hot, spicy foods (It's symbolic, you see.) and pray I don't freeze to death during the coming winter.

 

[LaSorcia]

^ I'm only half joking. I'd be hard pressed to say which I loathe more: cold or cockroaches.

 

[awitch]

^ I'm only half joking. I'd be hard pressed to say which I loathe more: cold or cockroaches.

I'll take the cold.

 

[Zoness]

^ I'm only half joking. I'd be hard pressed to say which I loathe more: cold or cockroaches.

Ugh hard pass on cockroaches, no thanks. I don't mind the cold though, or at least the cool. Fall and Spring are my favorite times of year. I can take the cold but I don't care for the ice and snow.

 

[LaSorcia]

I'll take the cold.

Ugh hard pass on cockroaches, no thanks. I don't mind the cold though, or at least the cool. Fall and Spring are my favorite times of year. I can take the cold but I don't care for the ice and snow.

I hear ya. But cold kills a lot more people than roaches do. Unless you have asthma and live surrounded by roaches.

I saw the biggest roach I've ever seen in my life a few weeks ago. I didn't even know they came in this size. Made palmetto bugs look like lady bugs. I was too scared to even attempt to kill it.