Why Jews were made, not Born

expos4ever

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Then why did he circ Timothy, who was already a New Covenant believer?
I believe it was because he had to be very sensitive to his cultural milieu. I know what I am suggesting does not play well with those not open to the possibility that, at times, Paul chosr pragmatism over strict theological consistency.
 
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Dave-W

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I believe it was because he had to be very sensitive to his cultural milieu. I know what I am suggesting does not play well with those not open to the possibility that, at times, Paul chosr pragmatism over strict theological consistency.
Why not just believe that he was being entirely true to the New Covenant as he taught it, that Mosaic observance was still appropriate and required for those of Jewish lineage, even in the New Covenant.
 
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Doctor.Sphinx

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The Jews tried to kill Paul several times for teaching against Moses. He appeased them by making Timothy look like a Jew. But Paul taught against circumcision many times to his own wounding and imprisonment.

They tried to kill Paul many times because he taught against circumcision and animal sacrifice saying Christ paid for our sins which meant an end to the Law.
Acts 21:20-26 says the opposite. Paul showed that he didn't teach the Jews to not circumcise their children or keep their customs, by purifying himself with the men. He did say that circumcision was not required for salvation, but this didn't mean the Jews had to forsake their traditions.

Acts 21:20-26 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality.” Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

If it didn't matter, then circumcision wouldn't be up for debate........
Anything one puts his faith in matters, if that one isn't Jesus. However, circumcision, Passover and other Jewish traditions for traditions sake - I don't see there is an issue in these.
 
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expos4ever

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Why not just believe that he was being entirely true to the New Covenant as he taught it, that Mosaic observance was still appropriate and required for those of Jewish lineage, even in the New Covenant.
Because I suggest the evidence is overwhelming: Paul believes that the time of the Law of Moses has come to an end.
 
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Dave-W

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Because I suggest the evidence is overwhelming: Paul believes that the time of the Law of Moses has come to an end.
If that is true, then why did he testify in Acts 28 that he not only kept the Law but also the "customs of the fathers?" (the oral tradition that later became Talmud)

Acts 28:17
After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Did he not also testify to the Jews in Jerusalem that he kept and observed the Law?

Acts 21:24
take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.​
 
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Dave L

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Acts 21:20-26 says the opposite. Paul showed that he didn't teach the Jews to not circumcise their children or keep their customs, by purifying himself with the men. He did say that circumcision was not required for salvation, but this didn't mean the Jews had to forsake their traditions.

Acts 21:20-26 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality.” Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

Anything one puts his faith in matters, if that one isn't Jesus. However, circumcision, Passover and other Jewish traditions for traditions sake - I don't see there is an issue in these.

“But that we write unto them [gentile converts], that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.” (Acts 15:20)

And this was good for the Jewish converts too.

“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;” (Ephesians 2:12–15)

“For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.” (1 Corinthians 10:17)
 
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Dave L

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You still have not yet answered my question to you on how if this true, why in Rom 11 did Paul call them Jews/Israel who were “enemies of the Gospel?”

If they are enemies they certainly are NOT believers in Christ. And yet he calls them Israel.
God removed the unbelievers from Israel in Romans 11. And for the fathers' sake, he will reattach them through faith in Christ.

“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:23–24)
 
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Dave-W

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God removed the unbelievers from Israel in Romans 11. And for the fathers' sake, he will reattach them through faith in Christ.

“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:23–24)
You are NOT answering the question.
 
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Dave L

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You are NOT answering the question.
Are you asking if Romans 11 is about Israel? If so, Jesus is Israel in the NT. And those who believe in him. Here's why:

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29)
 
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Dave-W

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Are you asking if Romans 11 is about Israel?
We have already established that point.

My question was why you are saying the non believing Jews are not Israel when Paul calls Israel "enemies of the gospel."
 
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Dave L

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We have already established that point.

My question was why you are saying the non believing Jews are not Israel when Paul calls Israel "enemies of the gospel."
Circumcision made one a Jew (religion). All circumcised before Calvary were valid Jews. But any circumcised this side of Calvary were not. They think they are and also practice Jewish customs and beliefs, but the only Biblical Jews or Israel are those who accept Christ
 
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Dave-W

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Circumcision made one a Jew (religion). All circumcised before Calvary were valid Jews. But any circumcised this side of Calvary were not. They think they are and also practice Jewish customs and beliefs, but the only Biblical Jews or Israel are those who accept Christ
If Paul calls them Israel in the bible, then they are Israel according to the bible. Don't side step the issue with your theories.

And you have yet to understand that being a Jew is NOT JUST a religious belief. There are certain God ordained callings and obligations from being of a certain lineage, no matter what covenant you are in. Again from Romans 11:

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

29 For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable.

That is God's Israel. Verse 26 says at some future time, they ALL will be saved. Even the most ardent of enemies.
 
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Dave L

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If Paul calls them Israel in the bible, then they are Israel according to the bible. Don't side step the issue with your theories.
They were having been circumcised before Calvary. But it all came to an end when that generation died of, especially in 70 Ad in Jerusalem's and the temple's destruction. Jesus IS Israel according to the NT, and the broken off will be reattached only through faith in Christ.
 
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Doctor.Sphinx

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Circumcision made one a Jew (religion). All circumcised before Calvary were valid Jews. But any circumcised this side of Calvary were not. They think they are and also practice Jewish customs and beliefs, but the only Biblical Jews or Israel are those who accept Christ
According to this logic, Muslim men (not to mention Egyptians, Arabs etc.) were all Jews. But Israelite women were not. :rolleyes:
 
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Dave L

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According to this logic, Muslim men (not to mention Egyptians, Arabs etc.) were all Jews. But Israelite women were not. :rolleyes:
No, God did not command them to circumcise as he did Abraham.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Circumcision made one a Jew (religion). All circumcised before Calvary were valid Jews. But any circumcised this side of Calvary were not. They think they are and also practice Jewish customs and beliefs, but the only Biblical Jews or Israel are those who accept Christ

So what about circumcised Jews who believe in Yeshua? Are we not Jews?
 
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Dave L

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So what about circumcised Jews who believe in Yeshua? Are we not Jews?
You are circumcised Christians who practice Jewish customs. Jew = religion, not race.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You are circumcised Christians who practice Jewish customs. Jew = religion, not race.

Belief in our own Messiah is the continuation/fulfillment of Judaism. You said "All circumcised before Calvary were valid Jews. But any circumcised this side of Calvary were not...the only Biblical Jews or Israel are those who accept Christ."
 
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Dave L

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Belief in our own Messiah is the continuation/fulfillment of Judaism. You said "All circumcised before Calvary were valid Jews. But any circumcised this side of Calvary were not...the only Biblical Jews or Israel are those who accept Christ."
The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. This includes Judaism. Especially the oral traditions that became the Talmud. It has nothing to do with the New Covenant.
 
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