My Jesus Challenge

[ananda]

Finally He "quickens" or revitalizes our spirit, and we have fellowship with Him ... By contrast, evil spirits ... like those devas you mentioned ... can't quicken our spirits like the Holy Spirit can.

What does it mean to "revitalize the spirit"?

 

[dlamberth]

Sorry, chief -- I ain't touching that one!

I know.

I go for a Christ with out limits or bounds and infinite in reach. An Alpha/Omega approach. Everywhere I turn, there Christ is. The official "correct" approach has a limited Christ that is all bound up, kind of small like in comparison.

 

[AV1611VET]

What does it mean to "revitalize the spirit"?

The spirit is considered "dead" because of our sins.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

The Holy Ghost awakens our spirit.

In tripartite thought, it is our spirit that gives us "God consciousness."

Body = soma = world consciousness

Soul = psyche = self-consciousness

Spirit = pneuma = God consciousness

 

[AV1611VET]

I go for a Christ with out limits or bounds ...

But you first have to accept Him as the One who emptied Himself and made Himself in the likeness of men.

 

[AV1611VET]

I go for a Christ with out limits or bounds ...

But you first have to accept Him as the One who emptied Himself and made Himself in the likeness of men.

 

[dlamberth]

But you first have to accept Him as the One who emptied Himself and made Himself in the likeness of men.

I don't think so. What I first have to do is to empty myself of myself and be like melting snow lovingly awash in the Light of God.

 

[AV1611VET]

What I first have to do is to empty myself of myself ...

And what would come out?

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Galatians 5:21a 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

 

[dlamberth]

Hey hey you special and unique person you

So many questions, I'll do my best to answer. Sorry if I miss something. But to understand my reply you have to first have in front of you the question of "What does it mean to have God as my absolute reality in life...not just a "belief", but REALITY!?"

I am a creationist. When i see Creation, i see the fingerprint of God.

I'm a Lover of God. When I see Creation, I see an activity of God. When I see the Soul of Human Beings, I see an activity God.

Im curious my friend. What was this event or occurrence - which leaves an impression on someone - of the Light of God with in the essence of this Creation?

I'll use Christian terms. "In the Beginning was the Word". What follows is that every single created thing is filled with the "Word". Even an Atom has the full "Word" with in it.

What event or occurance proved that the spirit of the Christian God exists in nature? ( eg plants, trees, animals, rocks, etc,)

I suggest some reading of Christian Creation Mystics like Teilhard de Chardin, Hildegard of Bingen, Francis of Assisi and Matthew Fox might be of help in answering your question a lot better than I.

As with all spiritual events' each one is a personal experience. You seem to be looking for outward proof of something that's an inward spiritual "seeing". And that's just not going to work in this case.

What do you mean by Light of God?

In Christian terms, the Christ essence of God. But I'm looking beyond the Human Being that is named Jesus but at the same time at the God stuff that Christians find in Jesus.

When you say God do you mean the Christian God?

How to answer? I go beyond the Christian God and onto the Source of all with out the dogma, beliefs and traditions that make up any religion. God, in it's purest form is not a religion or theology.

What denomination are these christians?

How is it practised?

I don't know all of their denomination. I do know some are Baptist. How it comes to me is in conversations and in how they "see" life and how in they see Satan controlling so much. I've been called a Heathen and my wife has been told she is heading to Hell because of her marriage to me and how Satan controls the earth right now. Those are just a few examples. Many more examples of Duality have come to light in this form through the years.

Please indulge me. What more is going on that the usual and traditional defintion is missing?

Using Christian terms, the Cosmic essence and reach of Christ into every corner and crevice of the Universe, both seen and unseen.

Well my dear dont be shy. Lets consider that if infact i did 'narrowed' the question down to good and evil.

What is the question?

While sitting in the "Heart of Christ", and looking out at the expanse of the Universe as one takes in ALL of this Creation and from that vantage point, "What is Christ experiencing?" In looking for an answer, take in everything that exist, Atoms, the trees, plants, animals, people, planets, galaxies...everything. As a person expands out to take it all in, reaching out to the Infinite if you will, Duality becomes less and less and the Oneness of it all becomes more and more of a person's consciousness. At least that's my experience. As such, I'm unable to narrow your question down to "good and evil". There is way too much grey in between.

How would we widen it? What is missing? What else could there be?

I can only speak for myself. What I found missing, and I had to deconvert to find it, is the reality that God is the ONLY reality, Period!

Cheers. I look forward to your reply. [/quote]

Are you a panenthesist?

Everywhere I look, there God is.

 

[dlamberth]

And what would come out?

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Galatians 5:21a 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

Nope...for me when I emptied myself of all of that monkey mind stuff, it was God I found.

I've been happely married to close to 40 years, no adultery, fornication or anything like that. I don't drink, I love God, people and life. So I have no idea what your doing with those quotes.

 

[Zoness]

Hey hey zoness


Lets reason together.


Dualism - the religious doctrine that the universe contains opposed powers of good and evil, especially seen as balanced equals.


Does that description fit in with Christianity?

What are some examples of platonism and hellenism in the Bible?

Cheers

Much of the Greek bent of Christian theology comes from the early church fathers rather than the Bible.

May I ask what you're going for her? This is not my field of expertise, maybe someone else can speak to it better. It also has little to do with my current spiritual condition.

I would say that your average Christian thinks of good and evil as being equal competitive forces, as familiarity with Christian theology or history is pretty weak among Christians, at least in the United States.

 

[AV1611VET]

I would say that your average Christian thinks of good and evil as being equal competitive forces, as familiarity with Christian theology or history is pretty weak among Christians, at least in the United States.

In dualism, good and evil exist in harmony.

In Christianity, good will overcome evil in the end.

 

[dlamberth]

What event or occurance proved that the spirit of the Christian God exists in nature? ( eg plants, trees, animals, rocks, etc,)

In thinking about this question some, it really is a good one to be asking, I have a return question to your question. My question is: Where is the Body of Christ? The answer I'd give is that it is within Creation itSelf. And the occurrence if Christian Scripture were the source lens would be the moment God said: Let there be Light. That's how I look at it.

 

[the iconoclast]

What does it mean to have God as my absolute reality in life...not just a "belief", but REALITY!?"

Hey hey my dear.

Check out my reply to ananda and tell me what you think?

'm a Lover of God. When I see Creation, I see an activity of God. When I see the Soul of Human Beings, I see an activity God.

Well my friend are you a lover of the Christian God?

When you see the soul of human beings you see an activity of God?

Please excuse me. What does that mean?

Does the Spirit of God live, exist, merge, mix or is inherent in nature, or is He sitting in His throne in heaven with Jesus by His side?

I'll use Christian terms. "In the Beginning was the Word". What follows is that every single created thing is filled with the "Word". Even an Atom has the full "Word" with in it.

Please excuse me my friend. That didnt really answer my question.

What was this event or occurrence - which leaves an impression on someone - of the Light of God with in the essence of this Creation?

I suggest some reading of Christian Creation Mystics like Teilhard de Chardin, Hildegard of Bingen, Francis of Assisi and Matthew Fox might be of help in answering your question a lot better than I.

Thank you for the suggestion however i will not be reading any of these recommendations.

It seems you have read them. Please tell me.

What event or occurance proved that the spirit of the Christian God exists in nature? ( eg plants, trees, animals, rocks, etc,)

As with all spiritual events' each one is a personal experience.

Please give me your personal experience in relation to

What event or occurance proved that the spirit of the Christian God exists in nature? ( eg plants, trees, animals, rocks, etc,)

You seem to be looking for outward proof of something that's an inward spiritual "seeing". And that's just not going to work in this case.

Please do not be rash my friend. You have misconstrued. Please read my reply to ananda.

I do not know how you came to that conclusion!

In Christian terms, the Christ essence of God. But I'm looking beyond the Human Being that is named Jesus but at the same time at the God stuff that Christians find in Jesus.

The essence of Christ exists in nature?

What God stuff?

What is Christ essence of God?

How to answer? I go beyond the Christian God and onto the Source of all with out the dogma, beliefs and traditions that make up any religion. God, in it's purest form is not a religion or theology.

What is higher than God?

What is this source you speak of?

Religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

a particular system of faith and worship.

Theology - the study of the nature of God and religious belief.

God is not religion or theoloy, these 2 study and or worship Him!

I don't know all of their denomination. I do know some are Baptist.

I can assure you baptists do not consider Christianity compatible with dualism. I think you have misinterpreted what is going on. Ask me?

How it comes to me is in conversations and in how they "see" life and how in they see Satan controlling so much.

This is not dualism and i think you may have misunderstood. Fending of temptation or demon possession does not equate to equal and opposing forces.

Christianity is not compatible with dualism. Satan is not equal to God - as seen in the Book of Job - in fact he needs permission from God. Satan is a liar, the accuser and the tempter.

He tried and failed to usurp heaven. He was given a verdict and will face punishment. I wouldnt call this relationship equal or a balanced opposition. Satan was an angel who wanted to be in place of God and was unsuccessful.

Another defintion for dualism

dualism means the belief in two supreme opposed powers or gods, or sets of divine or demonic beings, that caused the world to exist.

Demonic beings were not instrumental in the creation of the world.

Sin (bad) is disobedience to God and is not a dimetric or equally opposing force. Darkness is the absence of light.

I've been called a Heathen

Do you believe in the birth, life, death and ressurection of Christ?

Do you believe He is the Son of God and there is no other gods but God. He has revealed Himself as God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit?

Do you accept Jesus into your heart?

Would you confidently call your self a disciple of Jesus - a Christian?

and my wife has been told she is heading to Hell because of her marriage to me

Im sure you and your wife are kind ppl. However i cannot comment here.

and how Satan controls the earth right now.

Satan has been let loose and out there accusing, temting and lying. Still this does not equate to equally opposed and mutual to existance.

Those are just a few examples. Many more examples of Duality have come to light in this form through the years.

Please excuse me. So far you really havent proven anything. I have the dictionary and sound Christian doctrine to back me.

Using Christian terms, the Cosmic essence and reach of Christ into every corner and crevice of the Universe, both seen and unseen.

Lets retrace our steps.

Dlamb - "But if one wanted to look at dualism in the broader sense, there's a lot more going on with dualsim than are images of supposed good and evil."

Icon - "Please indulge me. What more is going on that the usual and traditional defintion is missing?"

Dlamb - "Using Christian terms, the Cosmic essence and reach of Christ into every corner and crevice of the Universe, both seen and unseen."

I do not know what to do here.

Please consider the actual definition of dualism

the religious doctrine that the universe contains opposed powers of good and evil, especially seen as balanced equals.

What more is going on with dualsim than images of supposed good and evil?

While sitting in the "Heart of Christ", and looking out at the expanse of the Universe as one takes in ALL of this Creation and from that vantage point, "What is Christ experiencing?"

Lets retrace our steps we were talking about dualism and you made this statement.

Dlamb - "The very fact that you have narrowed the question down to good and evil suggest to me a narrow perspective of dualism which I'm finding interesting especially when viewed through the lens of a Panenthest perspective."

Icon - "What is the question?"

Dlamb - "What is Christ experiencing?"

What has this got to do with dualism and having supposed narrow perspective of good and evil - when we consider the meaning of dualism?

In looking for an answer, take in everything that exist, Atoms, the trees, plants, animals, people, planets, galaxies...everything.

To pray to God you must focus your attention to God. This is where you go wrong.

As a person expands out to take it all in, reaching out to the Infinite if you will, Duality becomes less and less and the Oneness of it all becomes more and more of a person's consciousness.

We are talking about dualism are we not?

At least that's my experience. As such, I'm unable to narrow your question down to "good and evil". There is way too much grey in between.

Thats because i didnt ask a question. I have asked questions but you said this.

Dlamb - The very fact that you have narrowed the question down to good and evil suggest to me a narrow perspective of dualism

I asked what was the question and you reply.

Dlamb - "What is Christ experiencing?"

My dear How did we get here?

What is a grey area between good and bad?

I can only speak for myself. What I found missing, and I had to deconvert to find it, is the reality that God is the ONLY reality, Period!

That reply really does not mean anything. What is missing? What else could there be?

Please re read our conversation.

Everywhere I look, there God is.

Are you a panenthesist, yes or no? What system do you subscribe to?

Where is the Body of Christ?.

If you mean the body of Christ as in the church. It is on earth awaiting the return of Christ.

If you mean the ressurected body of Christ, that is on the right side of God in heaven.

Please be careful. Im starting to get the impression that you may not know what you are talking about.

Cheers

 

[the iconoclast]

Assuming you did hear from someone/something: how do you know you heard from an infinite/perfect being ("God"),

Hey hey ananda

Assume as much as you like my friend, i am honest about my Christian experiences and have no desire to manipulate or deceive you. I know what ive seen and experienced.

I did not perceive with the ear, its more like an intuition but not instinctly, rather spiritually. More like something in the heart.

I have experienced immense joy that i cannot replicate in any other fashion, shown things i may not have known any other way and have been guided in the right direction.

Ps - even though i am Spirit filled i do stuff up some of the time and sometimes it takes me time to figure out what has been revealed to me, in the mean while somethings jave gone cactus! Othertimes i have been saved from things. Ask me about the basketball court, at the park close to where i used to live?

1 John 4:1-3
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

I will divulge something.

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

Before we examine some of the blatant Christian symbolism, what say you?

and not merely a finite but extremely powerful being (like a deva)?

To worship a deva i would have to create a shrine with the devas image and perform specific rituals and prayers in honor to that deva. I would have to maintain a regular practice of worship to stay connected to the deva.

For example i would have to worship ganesha first before worshipping shiva to remove any obstacles that i may be dealing with so i can worship and pray freely to shiva. I would have to pray to a statue or icon of ganesha first however.

Say i was in a crowd and yelled 'Simon'. Why would matthew, alex or douglas answer me?

Do you believe i was deceived? - kinda sounds poetic!

Also im starting to feel like you are ignoring this question i posed you. Why shouldnt the communication be personal?

Please indulge me, so far i have indulged you.


Ps -

is not shiva supposedly infinite and not finite?

Do you believe the hindu gods are real and do you worship them?

If a person is bad does he come back - reincarnation - as a cockroach or rat?

Cheers

 

[the iconoclast]

Much of the Greek bent of Christian theology comes from the early church fathers rather than the Bible.

Hey hey friend

Which early church fathers my dear?

May I ask what you're going for her? This is not my field of expertise, maybe someone else can speak to it better. It also has little to do with my current spiritual condition.

I wanna chat with you my treaure.

I would say that your average Christian thinks of good and evil as being equal competitive forces,

I disagree. This is speculation and not the case. I have never heard that.

as familiarity with Christian theology or history is pretty weak among Christians, at least in the United States.

How do you know that?

Cheers

 

[AV1611VET]

LOL @ iconoclast

Do you address everyone in terms of endearment?

 

[the iconoclast]

LOL @ iconoclast

Do you address everyone in terms of endearment?

Hey hey av God bless you brother
I enjoy a little pizzazz!

You are a diamond

 

[AV1611VET]

Hey hey av God bless you brother
I enjoy a little pizzazz!

You are a diamond

You too! God bless!

 

[ananda]

I did not perceive with the ear, its more like an intuition but not instinctly, rather spiritually. More like something in the heart. .. Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava ... Before we examine some of the blatant Christian symbolism, what say you?

Thank you for sharing your personal experience; I cannot deny personal experience, I've had my own experiences with Buddhism. One of the things we would say is that one of the most powerful forces in the universe is conscious intention, e.g. calling out for "Jesus" or "Krishna" in a fervent believer.

However, I do not see how such a personal experience makes you believe you heard from an infinite being vs. an extremely powerful yet limited being

To worship a deva i would have to create a shrine with the devas image and perform specific rituals and prayers in honor to that deva. I would have to maintain a regular practice of worship to stay connected to the deva. For example i would have to worship ganesha first before worshipping shiva to remove any obstacles that i may be dealing with so i can worship and pray freely to shiva. I would have to pray to a statue or icon of ganesha first however. Say i was in a crowd and yelled 'Simon'. Why would matthew, alex or douglas answer me? Do you believe i was deceived? - kinda sounds poetic!

That is not how many early Buddhists like myself understand how devas interact with people.

Also im starting to feel like you are ignoring this question i posed you. Why shouldnt the communication be personal?

My apologies, I thought I already answered the question here.

is not shiva supposedly infinite and not finite? Do you believe the hindu gods are real and do you worship them? If a person is bad does he come back - reincarnation - as a cockroach or rat? Cheers

I am not Hindu, and I am agnostic towards their gods. Devas, in Buddhism, are merely consciousnesses who have acquired greater power, lifespan, and pleasures because of former good kamma. When the good kamma which sustains their heavenly life expires, those devas will die and may very well be reborn as a lesser deva, human, animal, or even in the hell realms because they will be experiencing the fruits of other kamma. Likewise, humans can cultivate good kamma which may propel our consciousness on to experience a deva existence.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Did they then die martyrs' deaths, screaming:

WE WERE JUST KIDDING! WE BORROWED IT! WE THOUGHT THE JOKE WAS ON YOU!

Lots of people die for beliefs that both you and I consider false, all the time.
Or do you think the Saudis who flew passenger planes into the WTC towers are now enjoying the attention of houris in heaven?
Do you think Joseph Smith went to his death for the Truth?
What about the followers of Mani, who kept loudly proclaiming that their founder was alive (Mani chai = Mani lives) even after the Persian king displayed his corpse and brought death to anyone who openly declared allegiance to the faith?

Even ideologies pretty much everyone considers (rightfully) despicable can produce uncompromising loyalty unto death: thousands upon thousands of young Germans died for the sake of the National Socialist world view, and even those who perpetuated it embraced it so wholeheartedly that they'd rather die (and kill their loved ones) than forsake it. When Goebbels and his wife realized that the war was lost, they wrote a letter declaring that they would not wish to live (or have their children live) in a world devoid of the ideals they held sacred, then proceeded to kill both their six children and themselves.

Her letter to her adult son (then in Canada) read as follows:
"[...]Unsere herrliche Idee geht zu Grunde, und mit ihr alles was ich Schönes, Bewundernswertes, Edles und Gutes in meinem Leben gekannt habe. Die Welt, die nach dem Führer und dem Nationalsozialismus kommt ist nicht mehr wert darin zu leben und deshalb habe ich auch die Kinder hierher mitgenommen. Sie sind zu schade für das nach uns kommende Leben und ein Gnädiger Gott wird mich verstehen, wenn ich selbst ihnen die Erlösung geben werde. [...] Wir haben nur noch ein Ziel: Treue bis in den Tod dem Führer."
(Translation: "Our glorious ideal is perishing, and with it everything that was beautiful, adorable, noble and good in my life. The world to come after the Fuhrer and National Socialism is not worth living in, and therefore I've also brought the children here [into the Bunker, to die]. They are too dear to continue in the coming era and a merciful God will understand, when I bring them salvation by my own hand. We've got but one goal left: devotion to the Fuhrer unto death.")

So you see, people dying for an idea(l) are hardly an argument for its veracity.

Besides, the borrowed elements were not plagiarized or deliberately added to deceive, but slowly made their way from one culture into the other, the way they usually do when people are in close contact with each other. None of the proto-Christians were the ones who borrowed them - that had happened centuries earlier, with Jewish folklore gradually adopting the image of an adversarial spritual entity.