ARE GOD'S 10 COMMANDMENTS ABOLISHED?

[corinth77777]

You have stated the ten commandments are not applicable for the Christian, and you question they are law written in your mind and placed on your heart. Under those circumstances it is entirely correct to ask you if you believe in your heart it is ok to steal, bear false witness, commit adultery etc. I note you have thus far refused to answer the question

Are the 10 commandments written on the heart or the spiritual laws

 

[James Richards]

Are the 10 commandments written on the heart or the spiritual laws

Are God's laws not spiritual laws?

To answer your question:

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

Once you became a Christian, would you be conscious you sinned if you stole something?
Would you be conscious you sinned if you took the Lords name in vain?
Would you be conscious you sinned if you coveted?
Would you be conscious you sinned if you committed adultery?
Would you be conscious you sinned if you bore false witness?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi brother Damian, nice to see you again.

I have a bit more time now. So hoped to discuss your post in a little more detail then earlier. Some questions for your consideration below before we start so I am not misunderstanding anything your saying.

breaking a law implies we are under that law. we are not under it so we cannot break it.

What does it mean to be "UNDER THE LAW" in your view as shown in ROMANS 3 when it says both JEWS and GENTILES are all under sin and stand guilty before God?

There is a system of law that has been fulfilled and we may still use that system to point to salvation and holiness or to expose our separation from God, however ultimately it points to Christ and it is Christ whom we should look to as the law itself cannot save.

So I am assuming the system of law your referring to is the 10 Commandments that give us a knowledge of GOOD and EVIL right? What do you mean it has been fulfilled and if you mean it is abolished than how can we still use it? (Just asking for clarification before discussion so I understand what your saying)

Christ's law of course has overlap but the overlap doesn't cement the old system as one that is continuous, it is fulfilled, not abolished, not discarded, but fulfilled.

Can you explain what you mean fulfilled if you do not mean abolished and also what you mean that Christs law has overlap with the 10 Commandments? I think I know what your saying but just want to make sure.

If I go to school and graduate I may retake the classes if I really want but there is no compulsion in doing so or really any benefit because I already have the credentials. I haven't thrown them away or curse them but rather use them to move to the next step. We are under Christ's law which has been shaped by the old covenant, but it is not the old covenant so we do not follow it.

Indeed we are under the NEW COVENANT now and not the OLD. What is your undersanding of what made up the OLD COVENANT and how does it relate to the NEW?

Thanks for your thoughts Damian. Nice talking to you

 

[LoveGodsWord]

the context of the word would be "torah" and it would be inclusive of the first 5 books of the bible regardless how you want to divide them up.

Hello Damian, thanks for your thoughts.

Indeed, the Torah however is more then the laws that are divided up and written in it. It was the bible in the days of Jesus and the Apostles.

Now the purpose of the post you were quoting from was to show that just because the words "the Ten commandments" are not used in the NEW TESTAMENT does not mean the new testament does not talk about the ten commandments.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Are you claiming that the Ten Commandments are the law that is written on our hearts?

I think the Sabbath commandment is one proof that the Ten Commandments are not for us gentiles. The Sabbath, like the Ten were only given to the Israelites through Moses. Not to us.

If you have been born again to LOVE then LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW or establishing of God's LAW in the heat of those who BELIEVE God's WORD. This is the NEW COVENANT promise (Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40; 1 John 3:3-10; Hebrews 8:10-12)

Faith does not ABOLISH God's LAW it ESTABLISHES it.

ROMANS 3:31 [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YEA, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe that we our under Spiritual law, LOVE..WE KEEP CHRIST'S SAYINGS KINGDOM LIVING
WHEN WE THERFORE REFUSE TO LOVE THEN WE SIN AGAINST THE LAW OF Christ

There are two great commandments of LOVE to God and LOVE to mankind that Jesus talks about in *MATTHEW 22:26-40. These two great commandments of LOVE are not new commandments. They are quoted from DEUTERONOMY 6:5 and LEVITICUS 19:18 to sum up God's 10 commandments.

Besides being in the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures the Jewish lawyers already knew that LOVE to GOD and LOVE to MAN was only a summary of how to obey God's LAW as OBEDIENCE to God's 10 Commandments is an EXPRESSION of LOVE. The Jewish experts in the Mosaic laws understood this application in the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures.

For example, in the NEW TESTAMENT...

LUKE 10:25
[25], And, behold, a certain LAWYER stood up, and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

The GREEK word used for LAWYER here is different to the way we would understand the use of the word today. The GREEK word used here is ἐκπειράζω ; ekpeirazō it means in this case an expert in the Mosaic laws.

So we have an expert in the Mosaic law standing up to try and ask Jesus a trick questions and test him, saying what must I do to inherit eternal life?

[26], He [JESUS] said unto him, What is written in the law? how read you?

Listen to the response of the expert in the Mosaic law...

[27], And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.

Sound familiar? Jesus then says...

[28], And he said unto him, You have answered right: this do, and you shall live.

Here is another accasion this time Jesus was answering...

MATTHEW 22:35-40
[35], Then one of them, who was a LAWYER, asked him a question, testing him, and saying,
[36], Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets.

Notice the same answer given by the expert in the Mosaic laws but Jesus adds;
ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets.

WHY? because these two great commandments of LOVE TO GOD and LOVE TO MAN SUMMARIZE our duty of LOVE as EXPRESSED in the OBEDIENCE of GOD'S LAW through faith. OBEDIENCE to GOD'S 10 COMMANDMENTS is HOW LOVE is EXPRESSED to GOD and to MAN.

.................

Now did you notice in the first set of scriptures above that [LUKE 10:25-28] what question was asked by the expert in the MOSAIC laws? He tried to test Jesus by asking the question;

* What shall I do to inherit eternal life? (Luke 10:25)

Jesus says that he gave the correct answer; LOVE GOD with all your heart (Deuteronomy 6:5) and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORE as yourself (LEVITICUS 19:18)

Now notice how Jesus answers the very same questions asked by the Lawyer in Luke 10:25 by the rich young rule and how the very same question he answered earlier by saying to LOVE GOD and LOVE your neighbore and on these to HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets...

MATTHEW 19:16-21
[16], And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Same question asked by the Lawyer in Luke 10:25 where the answer was to LOVE GOD and your neighbore. How does Jesus answer the question?

[17], And he said unto him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.

Which commandment some might say? If we stopped here some would argue cannot be the ten commandments. Let's read on..

[18], He said unto him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
[19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[20], The young man said unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[21], Jesus said unto him, If you will be perfect, go and sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Did Jesus answer the same question correctly? Absolutely! WHY because OBEDIENCE to the the 10 Commandments are how LOVE is EXPRESSED to GOD and MAN. The first 4x commandments in * Exodus 20:3-11 are our duty of LOVE to GOD. The next 6x commandments are our duty of LOVE to our neighbore * Exodus 20:12-17.

LOVE TO GOD and LOVE TO MANKIND as an EXPRESSION of LOVE is SUMMED up in the 10 COMMANDMENTS and is why Jesus says "ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [LOVE TO GOD AND LOVE TO MAN] HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets.

PAUL is saying the same thing in ROMANS.

ROMANS 13:9-10, [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, IT IS SUMMED UP IN THE SAYING, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

................

CONCLUSION the two great commandments of LOVE are EXPRESSED by OBEDIENCE to GOD'S 10 commandments which show our duty of LOVE to GOD (Exodus 20:3-11) and our neighbore (Exodus 20:12-17). LOVE sums up the 10 Commandments and LOVE is the fulfilling [doing or establishing them] * ROMANS 3:31

................

The practical application here can be seen in these examples.

LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART MIND AND SOUL (Deuteronomy 6:5)

* If you love God will you have other gods before him? (Exodus 20:3)
* If you love God will you make yourself idols and worship them? (Exodus 20:4-5)
* If you love God will you take his name in vain (Exodus 20:7)
* If you love God will you forget his Sabbath memorial of creation? (Exodus 20:8-11)

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORE AS YOURSELF (Leviticus 19:18)

* If you love your neighbore will you dishonor your parents? (Exodus 20:12)
* If you love your neighbore will you kill him? (Exodus 20:13)
* If you love your neighbore will you commit adultery with their spouse? (Exodus 20:14)
* If you love your neighbore will you steal from them? (Exodus 20:15)
* If you love your neighbore will you lie to them? (Exodus 20:16)
* If you love your neighbore will you covet or be jealous of them? (Exodus 20:17).

ROMANS 13:8-10, [8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

.................

CONCLUSION: IF you are breaking any of God's 10 Commandments that define our duty of LOVE to GOD or LOVE to MAN you are not LOVING therefore you stand "UNDER THE LAW" guilty before God because you are still in your sins (Romans 3:19).

I hope this helps brother. God's LAW of LOVE is not new it was written in the OLD COVENANT pointing to the NEW. If you are breaking any of God's 10 Commandments which are our duty of LOVE to GOD and MAN then you do not LOVE and are still "UNDER THE LAW" guilty before God of sin.

Those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM (Hebrews 10:26-27).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Scriptures themselves don't even demarcate these as "ten commandments", and throughout history different people and groups have numbered them differently. There are several basic ways they have been enumerated (as recognized by groups today):

Hi ViaCrucis, welcome here brother. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

RED highlight above in your post is mine for emphasis.

EXODUS 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

DEUTERONOMY 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

DEUTERONOMY 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spoke unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

The scripture does indeed demarcate the ten commandments as ten commandments.

Thanks for your thoughts. Hope this is helpful

 

[LoveGodsWord]

How about highlighting the most important commandment in that list.

‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

That is the perfect law, one of the two of the greatest commandments in the law.

See post # 646 linked click me (On these two commandments hang all the law)

It wasn't marked because it was not part of the Ten in discussion.

See post # 646 linked click me (On these two commandments hang all the law)


Hope this helps.

 

[DamianWarS]

What does it mean to be "UNDER THE LAW" in your view as shown in ROMANS 3 when it says both JEWS and GENTILES are all under sin and stand guilty before God?

the torah is for the jews which is inclusive of the 10 commandments. the covenant is like a marriage but one is released from marriage through death and then free to marry another. Keep reading Romans and you will find that... perhaps around chapter 7 where it specifically says we are released from the law.

So I am assuming the system of law your referring to is the 10 Commandments that give us a knowledge of GOOD and EVIL right? What do you mean it has been fulfilled and if you mean it is abolished than how can we still use it? (Just asking for clarification before discussion so I understand what your saying)

the law points to Christ, it had a role in establishing righteousness and sin but it did so veiled. If we look to the law all we see is a shadow which does not give us clarity. Instead we should look to one who casts the shadow, who is Christ.

Can you explain what you mean fulfilled if you do not mean abolished and also what you mean that Christs law has overlap with the 10 Commandments? I think I know what your saying but just want to make sure.

I thought I did with my school example.

Indeed we are under the NEW COVENANT now and not the OLD. What is your undersanding of what made up the OLD COVENANT and how does it relate to the NEW?

the old covenant points to Christ and it is a shadow of Christ.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

the torah is for the jews which is inclusive of the 10 commandments. the covenant is like a marriage but one is released from marriage through death and then free to marry another. Keep reading Romans and you will find that... perhaps around chapter 7 where it specifically says we are released from the law.

Are you sure brother? Gentiles are now grafted into God's ISRAEL under the NEW COVENANT. (Romans 11:16:27) and a JEW is not one that is one outwardly but one that is one inwardly and circumcision is of the heart but not the flesh. God's WORD says All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). I suggest you read Romans 6-8 together. There is no chapter demarkations in these letters. Collectively the OLD and NEW TESTAMENTS scriptures are the WORD of God and the NEW TESTAMENT does not delete the OLD.

the law points to Christ, it had a role in establishing righteousness and sin but it did so veiled. If we look to the law all we see is a shadow which does not give us clarity. Instead we should look to one who casts the shadow, who is Christ.

I do not think anyone is saying here that we look to God's LAW for salvation. We are only saved by grace through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8).

However the purpose of God's 10 Commandments remain the same. They give is a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUSNESS (Romans 3:20; James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; Psalms 119:172). If you have been forgiven through faith in the precious blood of Jesus then you are no longer under the condemnation of God's LAW because you have been forgiven for your sins. If you are still breaking God's LAW however then you are still under the law being condemned by it. This is the only role of God's 10 Commandments and that is to give us a knowledge of sin and lead us to the cross.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother

 

[DamianWarS]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

Np

 

[discipler7]

Second, it is as clear as the shnoz on your face that, in the new covenant, the Spirit gives us knowledge of sin.

What kind of a Holy Spirit would "overlook" imparting knowledge of sin to the believer?

And how does the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God do it.? Out of thin air.? By God directly speaking to the Christians from heaven.? By the Christians' random mental ideas or thoughts.?

Yes, the Holy Spirit of God spoke directly to Apostle Paul, John and Peter and worked miracles through them, in order to attest them for the establishment of the New Covenant gospel of salvation.(HEBREWS.2:4) But does He still do the same for pastors and Christians today.? Does He still need to do what He did during the 1st century AD.? Are some Christians today trying to be "great" like the Apostles.?

JOHN.14: = 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

JOHN.15: = 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

JOHN.16: = It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

2TIMOTHY.3: = 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you have been born again to LOVE then LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW or establishing of God's LAW in the heat of those who BELIEVE God's WORD. This is the NEW COVENANT promise (Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40; 1 John 3:3-10; Hebrews 8:10-12)

Faith does not ABOLISH God's LAW it ESTABLISHES it.

ROMANS 3:31 [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YEA, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Hope this helps

Once again, you are all over the place with your definitions. The NT testament say that we love Christ if we keep his commands, but you extend that to mean the TCs. ????? But you don't even use the title Ten Commandments, but rather "God's LAW" which you then claim is the "NEW COVENANT" which you claim is the old covenant written on our hearts.

A covenant (agreement) is not new if the words are identical. You can't transfer an old agreement to a different material and then claim it is a new agreement.

It would be like paying off your home mortgage only to have the bank send you the same agreement to sign on yellow paper and claim (in word only) that it is all paid up. Would you sign it? Me neither.

 

[Saint Steven]

I quoted from chapter 10

Tell us what you make of verses 6, 7, 9, and 13. (of Hebrews ten) Thanks.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi ViaCrucis, welcome here brother. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

RED highlight above in your post is mine for emphasis.

EXODUS 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

DEUTERONOMY 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

DEUTERONOMY 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spoke unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

The scripture does indeed demarcate the ten commandments as ten commandments.

Thanks for your thoughts. Hope this is helpful

Thanks for the correction, though only in part. The phrase here isn't "ten commandments" in Hebrew, but "ten words" ('eser dabar), from which the term Decalogue comes. Though I do recognize the correction that the text does recognize there being ten on the tablets of stone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Once again, you are all over the place with your definitions.

Not at all Steve, It is God's WORD that says sin is breaking God's 10 Commandments and that God's 10 Commandment if broken give us a knowledge of what sin is. Your argument is with PAUL, JAMES and JOHN not me my friend. (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:8-11)

The NT testament say that we love Christ if we keep his commands, but you extend that to mean the TCs. ?????

Not at all Steve, Did you not know that Jesus is God and the creator of heaven and earth? (John 1:1-3; 14; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:1-3; 8) He is the LORD of the Sabbath because he created it (Mark 2:27-28). What makes you think that the 10 Commandments do not come from the creator of heaven and earth? Jesus is one with the father (John 10:30) They do not have different laws from each other.

But you don't even use the title Ten Commandments, but rather "God's LAW" which you then claim is the "NEW COVENANT" which you claim is the old covenant written on our hearts.

The phrase "God's LAW" is used in reference to the 10 commandments because it was GOD alone that spoke, wrote and made the 10 commandments on two tables of stone (Exodus 20:1; Exodus 32:16; Nehemiah 10:29).

A covenant (agreement) is not new if the words are identical. You can't transfer an old agreement to a different material and then claim it is a new agreement. It would be like paying off your home mortgage only to have the bank send you the same agreement to sign on yellow paper and claim (in word only) that it is all paid up. Would you sign it? Me neither

No one is doing this. The OLD COVENANT was written on stone and in a book. The NEW COVENANT is written in the heart to LOVE (Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40) God's LAW on stone brings us to the NEW COVENANT in the SPIRIT (Galatians 3:22-25; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11; Hebrews 8:10-12; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-11).

Hope this helps

 

[Saint Steven]

Not at all Steve, It is God's WORD that says sin is breaking God's 10 Commandments and that God's 10 Commandment if broken give us a knowledge of what sin is. Your argument is with PAUL, JAMES and JOHN not me my friend. (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:8-11)

It says no such thing. Is bearing false witness one of the Ten?

 

[Saint Steven]

…
Not at all Steve, Did you not know that Jesus is God and the creator of heaven and earth? (John 1:1-3; 14; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:1-3; 8) He is the LORD of the Sabbath because he created it (Mark 2:27-28). What makes you think that the 10 Commandments do not come from the creator of heaven and earth? Jesus is one with the father (John 10:30) They do not have different laws from each other. …

That's some interesting logic there.

A) My cap has a bill
B) A duck has a bill
Therefore) My cap is a duck

How could Jesus say this if what you are claiming is true?

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
The phrase "God's LAW" is used in reference to the 10 commandments because it was GOD alone that spoke, wrote and made the 10 commandments on two tables of stone (Exodus 20:1; Exodus 32:16; Nehemiah 10:29). …

Make up your mind. You just told us that Jesus wrote the TCs.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
No one is doing this. The OLD COVENANT was written on stone and in a book. The NEW COVENANT is written in the heart to LOVE (Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40) God's LAW on stone brings us to the NEW COVENANT in the SPIRIT (Galatians 3:22-25; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11; Hebrews 8:10-12; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-11).

Hope this helps

The new covenant can't be the new covenant unless it is a new covenant.
If the new covenant is not a new covenant, then it is still the old covenant.
You can't write the old covenant from stone to a heart and call it a new covenant.
Nothing has changed to make the covenant new.

Hebrews 8:7
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Hebrews 8:9
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt...