My Jesus Challenge

[dlamberth]

Yes, but not everyone has eternal life.

That's why He gave us the Great Commission.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What do you think mission fields are?

First, for myself, it's not about "eternal life". I'm in it to become a more human, Human Being. But also, I think by now you can see why I no longer can call myself a Christian. Today the only Holy Script that I read is the Sacred Manuscript of Nature. It's the ONLY Sacred Text directly written by the hand of God and signed off with His very own signature.

 

[AV1611VET]

I ware a Heart full of Love.

Ya ... well the Bible has a lot to say about the heart, including ...

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[AV1611VET]

First, for myself, it's not about "eternal life". I'm in it to become a more human, Human Being. But also, I think by now you can see why I no longer can call myself a Christian. Today the only Holy Script that I read is the Sacred Manuscript of Nature. It's the ONLY Sacred Text directly written by the hand of God and signed off with His very own signature.

 

[Zoness]

You can read the skeptics Bible if you want. That is only one book. Every science book that has ever been written shows us how accurate and true the Bible is. Even properly understood the skeptics Bible proves the word of God is true. Because we are told in Romans 1:28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient". So at the end when you are judged your glass alibi shatters before the throne of God and you have nothing to defend yourself. Even you fail to substantiate your logic and reasoning if your appeal is to the skeptics Bible.

Even if we were to allow you your one book. You have one book on your side of the scale and we have every science book ever written on the other side of the balance. Actually the study of language itself written or otherwise substantiates how accurate and true the Bible is. So the bottom line is that it all comes down to what is properly understood and what is not.

Science can claim to be agnostic. They can claim we do not know where all the natural laws and the laws of the universe and science comes from. They can not claim that the laws have always existed because now Science testifies that there was a beginning even a beginning of time itself at the big bang. So if you want to say there was a beginning then you prove the Bible true because the first word in the Bible is Beginning. If you want to say there was no beginning then you prove the Bible is true because God was in the Beginning and He has to beginning.

I am not going to get into a discussion of the duel nature of the universe. (Positive negative neutral) and that God is a singularity. 2Thes2 "11 For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.…"

This a wall of strawmen, a load of arguments I didn't make that read like they come from somewhere else. I don't care about the skeptics Bible nor refutations surrounding it. Furthermore, I expect you to substantiate the claims that science books prove that God exists. Science works in a material world that doesn't address metaphysical concerns. However many scientific findings contradict a Biblical understanding of the world.

But for a thought experiment, let's say a god or gods does exist, there's no reason to believe that the Hebrew God has any more standing above any others. Many religious texts asset their gods exist, the Bible is hardly unique in that regard. It's a long walk from "potential prime mover or abstracted creator" to "Christian god who sends people to hell for various Bronze age moral hangups".

I simply do not find arguments surrounding the truth of the Bible convincing. They're only convincing if you're already a believer in Christianity. To me, the Bible is as convincing as the Quran or any other religious text.

 

[awitch]

Every science book that has ever been written shows us how accurate and true the Bible is.

And I thought lying was a sin.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Au contraire.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The Book of Mormon contains the testimony of eleven people aside from Joseph Smith who affirm that they have seen the miraculous Golden Plates from which their holy book was translated with the help of magical stones and enchanted breastplates. And yet, we can probably agree that neither those plates nor the magical implements ever existed.

Do you see where I am going here?

A religious text making such claims isn't exactly a reliable testimony. Some of these events are noticeable and exceptional enough to merit mention in extraneous sources, yet none exist. Not even a simple: "Some madmen claimed to have seen the dead walking the city."

 

[joshua 1 9]

And I thought lying was a sin.

God watches over what I say. So I have to be very careful. God gave us the Bible, and God gives us Science. He does not contradict Himself. Only infidels with a reprobate mind get it confused and even that is of God because He gives them over to that.

 

[joshua 1 9]

yet, we can probably agree that neither those plates

There is no evidence that the plates did not exist.

 

[awitch]

God watches over what I say. So I have to be very careful. God gave us the Bible, and God gives us Science. He does not contradict Himself. Only infidels with a reprobate mind get it confused and even that is of God because He gives them over to that.

I bet that makes you feel all sorts of superior.

 

[dlamberth]

It's all good. As I've gone down this track I'm on these days, I find myself more blessed in God than I have been my entire life. It's really amazing to see the Light of God everywhere one turns. I wouldn't change that for anything.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

There is no evidence that the plates did not exist.

There is also no evidence that there's no teapot floating in the rings of saturn, but that doesn't mean there is.

ALL evidence points to the Book of Mormon being a fraud, and the golden plates as nothing more than a fabrication. If you require more data, where would you like me to start? With the archaeological evidence clearly establishing that the entire alternate history laid down in the BoM is spurious? With the anachronisms present in the text? The fake early modern English Smith used to emulate the King James version of the Bible, grammatical errors and a total lack of understanding the specifics of this language included?

Look, if you truly believe that Smith found golden plates and translated them with the help of a magical stone hidden in his hat, I've got some holy scriptures that were transmitted to me last night in the shape of a celestial diamond right here. I'll share them with you.

 

[AV1611VET]

A religious text making such claims isn't exactly a reliable testimony.

Then what was the second half of that sentence for?

Here is what you said:

You've got earthquakes and dead saints walking the street, yet no one seems to have witnessed any of that.

If you're going to invoke the first half of that sentence, you're going to have to invoke the second half as well.

I would understand it if you would have said:

You've got earthquakes and dead saints walking the street; a religious text making such claims isn't exactly a reliable testimony.

But you're contradicting the part in the Scriptures that indeed says witnesses were there.

In other words, you're acting like you were there as well.

A fallacy I see in a lot of unbelievers' posting style.

 

[dlamberth]

Only infidels with a reprobate mind get it confused and even that is of God because He gives them over to that.

I think it's 37 times or something like that in the Bible where Christians are told not to judge others.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Then what was the second half of that sentence for?

Here is what you said:

If you're going to invoke the first half of that sentence, you're going to have to invoke the second half as well.

I could understand it if you would have said:

But you're contradicting the part in the Scriptures that indeed say witnesses were there.

In other words, you're acting like you were there as well.

A fallacy I see in a lot of unbelievers' posting style.

Sticking to the analogy of the golden plates:
if it weren't for the sheer absurdity of Smith's historical claims regarding pre-Columbian history, his testimony and the one given by his eleven followers would actually be on slightly safer footing than the Biblical one regarding an earthquake, an eclipse and dead saints in the streets.

Why?

Because they can reasonably claim that no one else could have seen those plates, and thus no one else would be able to bear witness to that.

The events Matthew injects into the Resurrection account are not mentioned anywhere else, *least* of all in any exta-biblical source. If that does not give you pause: again, I've got some very interesting items you might be interested in buying.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I expect you to substantiate the claims that science books prove that God exists.

That is not what I said. You are already twisting my words trying to claim I said something I did not say. Because you can not answer for what I really said. So I will say it again. God gave us the Bible, the written word of God and God gives us Science. God can not contradict Himself. There are many ways to look at this. But lets us look from this perspective. IF you want to say there is no God still we have all the natural laws and no where does the Bible violate or break any of the natural laws or the laws of Science. So if you want to say there is no God that does not change anything because all of Science shows us that the Bible is accurate and true.

The Bible is Infinite. That means there is no beginning & there no end, the Bible goes on forever in wisdom, knowledge and understand. Science is limited. For example when I say every Science book in the world, that is a limited number of books. The Bible talks about beginnings and even we are told that God

I do appreciate you pointing out to me that you did not understand what am saying.

 

[AV1611VET]

I think it's 37 times or something like that in the Bible where Christians are told not to judge others.

If we're all sons of God, should scientists intuitively agree with your Sacred Manuscript of Nature?

 

[joshua 1 9]

I think it's 37 times or something like that in the Bible where Christians are told not to judge others.

I am not judging anyone. It is not my place to judge anyone. That is the job of the angels at the end of the age. Jesus tells us to let the wheat and the tares grow together. If you somehow missed it the discussion has to do with the skeptics Bible.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sticking to the analogy of the golden plates:

Here we go with the diabolical mimicry, followed by "let's throw the baby out with the bathwater" again.

... if it weren't for the sheer absurdity of Smith's historical claims regarding pre-Columbian history, his testimony and the one given by his eleven followers would actually be on slightly safer footing than the Biblical one regarding an earthquake, an eclipse and dead saints in the streets.

That's nice.

I don't believe Joseph Smith; so your point is dull.

And what "eclipse" are you referring to?

The one at Jesus' resurrection?

I wasn't aware solar eclipses lasted three hours.

The events Matthew injects into the Resurrection account are not mentioned anywhere else, *least* of all in any exta-biblical source. If that does not give you pause: again, I've got some very interesting items you might be interested in buying.

That event was a partial fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy.

It also refers to saints as "sleeping;" a term that unbelievers often overlook.

 

[joshua 1 9]

If we're all sons of God

Not all are Sons of God, some are Manifest Sons of God. "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

 

[Zoness]

That is not what I said. You are already twisting my words trying to claim I said something I did not say. Because you can not answer for what I really said. So I will say it again. God gave us the Bible, the written word of God and God gives us Science. God can not contradict Himself. There are many ways to look at this. But lets us look from this perspective. IF you want to say there is no God still we have all the natural laws and no where does the Bible violate or break any of the natural laws or the laws of Science. So if you want to say there is no God that does not change anything because all of Science shows us that the Bible is accurate and true.

The Bible is Infinite. That means there is no beginning & there no end, the Bible goes on forever in wisdom, knowledge and understand. Science is limited. For example when I say every Science book in the world, that is a limited number of books. The Bible talks about beginnings and even we are told that God

I do appreciate you pointing out to me that you did not understand what am saying.

The Bible is a collection of books determined as Canon by a series of church councils. Those events were pivotal to Christian history.

There are all sorts of Biblical claims that defy observed science, just a few examples include Parting the Sea, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, Jonah being in the whale, the global Flood. Just a few off of the top of my head.

The Bible is not alone in it's fantastic claims, all religious texts do the same as it. Though personally I have some bias towards the philosophies expressed in the Bhagavad Gita.