Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

[jgr]

Once again, the Masoretic has NO CAPITALIZATION or PUNCTUATION. Thus if the ORIGINAL has limitations, then the Versions are ALSO FAILED.


Please explain that to the angel in 12:4 & 9.

Thanks,
DaDad

The RSV is a version, so it must also be failed.

The time of the end began 2,000 years ago. (Hebrews 1:1,2; 1 John 2:18)

 

[BABerean2]

Please have all the commentator "ancient fulfillment" explanations rescinded, because they're all lies. The Prophecies of Daniel are approximate to 1948, and precisely align with History.

Either you are confused, or the author of the Book of Hebrews is confused below...

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Do you think Donald Trump is the last trump, or would that be his son Donald Jr. ?


.

 

[mkgal1]

I got sidetracked yesterday with other things. I will try and concentrate on some of this today. Again though, not easy to answer some of these questions in writing. It can get pretty tedious trying to explain how one might be understanding certain things. Meaning tedious for me. Most of the time I like to keep things somewhat simple.

Not a problem at all. Just post when you can. My main question is your definition/understanding of the word "desolate". We know it can't mean "complete ruin" because of what Jesus said in Matthew 23:37-39 (and the temple was still standing and in use).

Jesus Grieves over Jerusalem​

37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.j 39 For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the LORD!’k




From the Greek...the Thayer's Greek Lexicon seems more clear, that "desolate" means "deserted; uninhabited".

 

[DaDad]

The RSV is a version, ...

... and so is the KJV. The difference is that the RSV, the MSG, and others, properly reflect Daniel 9, but the KJV and others get it WRONG. And if you were honest, you'd either provide a Scriptural precedent, or a Societal precedent for:

~a pair of shoes costing seven and sixty-two dollars plus tax.~​

The time of the end began 2,000 years ago. ...

Daniel 12:4 ... Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
​

I don't know why you misrepresent what the Scriptures specify. (Actually I do know why you misrepresent what the Scriptures specify, -- but I try to be "polite".)

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[BABerean2]

Probably better for everyone if you define how you understand Jew. Your taglines indicate that you view Jews as a tribal group, "The descendants of Jacob need to hear the Gospel, now.", defined by DNA. You confirmed this when you said:



In your video thread, you imply that a Jew is someone who lives in Israel. If that was not your intention, please explain.

Below you quote Paul saying that a Jew is an inward state.
Do you have the foggiest idea of what he meant, or are you just sticking the quote in for props?

You then ask me what DNA percentage makes a Jew, but you have already stated that Jews are a DNA group, a tribal entity like Arabs. Do you have any idea what you mean to say, or what you are actually trying to say?

Sammy Davis Jr. was an Orthodox Jew, even though he was from African ancestry.
He converted to the faith.
People from my family could convert to Orthodox Judaism, without a DNA test.
It is a faith based on the writings of the rabbis in the Babylonian Talmud.

However, there is a very high probability that some of Jacob's descendants are presently Orthodox Jews, because his DNA has been spread throughout most of the known world.
The same is true with Abraham's DNA.
Almost everyone on the planet is a descendant of Abraham.
If an Orthodox Jew claims to be a descendant of Abraham or Jacob, they are probably correct, and so would many other people in the world of various faiths.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
This fact is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

.

 

[jgr]

... and so is the KJV. The difference is that the RSV, the MSG, and others, properly reflect Daniel 9, but the KJV and others get it WRONG. And if you were honest, you'd either provide a Scriptural precedent, or a Societal precedent for:

~a pair of shoes costing seven and sixty-two dollars plus tax.~​

Daniel 12:4 ... Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
​

I don't know why you misrepresent what the Scriptures specify. (Actually I do know why you misrepresent what the Scriptures specify, -- but I try to be "polite".)

Thanks,
DaDad

The YLT is recognized above all others for literality and accuracy. It is also free of controversy.

The RSV is not. It is a modernist translation compared to the YLT.

When the two disagree, the YLT wins every time.

Here's a Scriptural precedent for Daniel 9's weeks:

Genesis 11:16 YLT
And Eber liveth four and thirty years, and begetteth Peleg.

That is the most literally reflective translation of what appears in the Hebrew. Daniel 9:25 is expressed very similarly. So are numerous other Scriptures.

Also, note that they're referring to durations of time, not pairs of shoes and dollars and taxes.



"I don't know why you" have a love affair with the RSV.

Toss it into the round file, and pick up the YLT.

I think you'll find it beneficial.

We can both be polite.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I have often been labeled antisemitic because of my Preterist view of the Daniel, Olivet Discourse and Revelation, and one reason I am against Dispensationalism[aka Christian Zionism], as they appear to throw that label at those who believe Jesus did fulfill all things for the OC Jews.

Act 11:2
And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him,

Philippians 3:2
Beware of-the dogs, beware of-the evil workers, beware of-the circumcision!
3 For we-are the circumcision, ones to Spirit of God worship
boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.
[Psalms 22:16
For dogs have surrounded me, assembly of ones doing evil have encompass me as a lion, hands of me and feet of me.]

2 Corinthians 6:17
wherefore come-forth out of midst of them! and be being separated!' is saying Lord
and an unclean-thing no ye be touching! and I shall be accepting ye'

Revelation 18:4
And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My People......................

we should not be confused, or place too much confidence in words & labels

Observing that 70 AD fulfills the Prophetic predictions & forecasts of Daniel & Jesus is not hateful.

Rather, frightening...

However much everyone acknowledges that national Israel by blood held special status & favor with God in heaven...

Then, recognizing in 70 AD God's (Just) Wrath for sin, backsliding, apostasy & rejection of God's Words from heaven through human media by the Holy Spirit...

against them having special most favored human nation status...

then so much more should mere gentiles:

• fear the Wrath of God in heaven
• noting God brought down Babylon (= Jerusalem in 70 AD) & the Beast (= pagan empire in 4th century AD), i.e. "God is 2-for-2 so far", so much more should gentiles fear for "God's trifecta & hattrick" (= Rev 20:9 +)

Preterism acknowledges God in heaven has already manifested Wrath on earth, in increasing scale & scope (1 city, 1 empire...), in human history...

that God in heaven is already so far "batting 1.000"...

and so fears that much more for "God's 3rd at bat" (= Rev 20:9) in the Biblically-immanent future...

The issue is not hatred, but awe & fear of God in heaven...

anti-Preterism suggests God hasn't really done much of anything just yet... so it effectively mutes & denies God's miraculous interventions in human history on earth, giving a (supposedly) false sense of security, that anything that might happen will happen safely far far in the future millennia from now...

but such a view may well be "overlooking the obvious" and thereby imbue us with a false sense of present safety & security

https://spalanz.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/the-force-awakens-hosnian-prime.jpg

 

[Erik Nelson]

Not implausible, but the question would then arise as to why Paul was unwilling to identify the restrainer, if it was in fact the Church? Chrysostom's explanation does answer that question.

Tertullian had also surmised similar to Chrysostom, a couple of centuries earlier.

And papal Rome did emerge upon the dissolution of pagan Rome.

Well, yes, Rome was converted to Christ by St. Lawrence in 258 AD... and Christianized Rome survived the fall of the surrounding empire in the west (with Constantinople continuing the same in the east)

Your argument could also be inverted... both Tertulian & Chrysostom had just as much cause to praise Roman society and its famous legalism, so as to curry favor with the same as much as they could

Also, I offer that there is often an double nature to spiritually significant events, an outer physical manifestation coupled with a more abstract spiritual manifestation. Outwardly, Rome's legalism protected St. Paul from the Jerusalem establishment's persecutions, and more generally usually protected Christians to some extent. The expulsion of the Romans from Judea in 66 AD began the final 70th week of Daniel = 7-year long Jewish Roman War of 66-73 AD.

Internally, when the Christian community came out of Jerusalem during a miraculous lull in the siege in 70 AD, then immediately thereafter the city fell spectacularly.

This preterist perspective probably presumes that the Roman armies under Titus were carrying out Divine Wrath, i.e. manifesting Divine Will. So they were God's agents, even as the Christians were (albeit more so).

So maybe everyone's right??? Roman legalism + Christian piety, as agents of (varying aspecs of) Divine Will, were both restraining the "dark forces of lawlessness" ?? Which finally erupted with the brutal zealot revolt of 66-73 AD ?

Pre-70 AD, Paul feared the Jerusalem establishment more than Rome... Paul appealed to Rome over the latter...

So Paul may not have wanted to write in plain Greek or Hebrew, "the sinful city of Jerusalem will soon fall" b/c the Jerusalem establishment would have been provoked.

So, instead, all the early Christians referred to Jerusalem cryptically, as "Babylon" (1 Pet 5:13), and obliquely as (perhaps) here with 2 Thess 2 (??)

 

[Christian Gedge]

Do you think Donald Trump is the last trump, or would that be his son Donald Jr. ?

ha ha With a bit of luck Donald Snr. will be the 'last trump.'

 

[Christian Gedge]

It has been widely taught by modern preachers and popular books that the ‘coming prince’ spoken about in Daniel 9:26 refers to Antichrist. The story goes how the clock stopped after the sixty-ninth ‘week’ and the last ‘week’ - the seventieth - was projected two thousand years into the future after which it resumes when Antichrist is revealed. In the middle of this seven-year period he will enter a rebuilt Jewish temple and cause animal sacrifice to stop, an act of desecration which (they say) is the ‘abomination’ mentioned in verse 27.

This theory is wrong. Apart from the obvious difficulty of jamming a two-thousand year wedge into God’s timeline, it confuses the prophecy’s real intent. The passage is all about atonement, not second coming. The temple is the ‘rejected’ not the ‘desecrated.’ The overspreading abomination was the continuance of sacrifice after it was meant to stop. The central person is Christ, not Antichrist, and the prince who was to come referred to Titus who came forty years after the ‘weeks’ were over.

The traditional view of this passage, held by the Church until last century, was the correct one all along. Christ is the one who confirms the covenant! Christ is the one who causes sacrifice to cease! Christ is the one that makes the temple obsolete! Is this what happened? It surely did. In the midst of the seventieth ‘week’ – in the very midst – God caused the great curtain of the temple to be torn from top to bottom indicating that sacrifice (as far as He was concerned) had come to an end. The atonement was complete! Shortly afterward the ‘other prince,’ Titus the Roman, came and destroyed the temple altogether.

Please examine the text below comparing the alternative notes and notice how naturally the traditional explanation flows with events as they unfolded. For example, the destruction is attributed to “the people of the prince,” not to the prince himself. Such a distinction would be superfluous if it were not for the fact that Titus had instructed his troops to preserve the temple but they disobeyed orders and torched it.

Modern Futurist Interpretation

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Antichrist, from revived roman empire) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.
He (future Antichrist) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his treaty) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple desecrated) And on the wing of abominations (situated in a wing of the temple) shall be one who makes desolate, (Antichrists abomination) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Antichrist)​

Traditional Christian Interpretation

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.
He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)​

 

[klutedavid]

Sammy Davis Jr. was an Orthodox Jew, even though he was from African ancestry.
He converted to the faith.
People from my family could convert to Orthodox Judaism, without a DNA test.
It is a faith based on the writings of the rabbis in the Babylonian Talmud.

However, there is a very high probability that some of Jacob's descendants are presently Orthodox Jews, because his DNA has been spread throughout most of the known world.
The same is true with Abraham's DNA.
Almost everyone on the planet is a descendant of Abraham.
If an Orthodox Jew claims to be a descendant of Abraham or Jacob, they are probably correct, and so would many other people in the world of various faiths.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
This fact is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

.

Hello BaBerean.

Not sure that I agree with everything you say.

The same is true with Abraham's DNA.
Almost everyone on the planet is a descendant of Abraham.

Now that is painfully wrong.

What about the other civilizations around the world at the time Abraham lived.

 

[jgr]

Hello BaBerean.

Not sure that I agree with everything you say.

Now that is painfully wrong.

What about the other civilizations around the world at the time Abraham lived.

Re. Abraham's DNA

The Jewish community itself acknowledges and applauds the ubiquity of Abraham's DNA in the entire human race.

All of the links below are from Jewish community sources, except the last one, which demonstrates ubiquity mathematically using the example of Charlemagne and the European population. The same analysis applies to Abraham's, and every other ancient bloodline's, DNA.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/tracing-lost-israelite-tribes-to-africa-1.5283901
https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/world/africa/nigeria-jews-igbo/index.html
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

 

[jgr]

It has been widely taught by modern preachers and popular books that the ‘coming prince’ spoken about in Daniel 9:26 refers to Antichrist. The story goes how the clock stopped after the sixty-ninth ‘week’ and the last ‘week’ - the seventieth - was projected two thousand years into the future after which it resumes when Antichrist is revealed. In the middle of this seven-year period he will enter a rebuilt Jewish temple and cause animal sacrifice to stop, an act of desecration which (they say) is the ‘abomination’ mentioned in verse 27.

This theory is wrong. Apart from the obvious difficulty of jamming a two-thousand year wedge into God’s timeline, it confuses the prophecy’s real intent. The passage is all about atonement, not second coming. The temple is the ‘rejected’ not the ‘desecrated.’ The overspreading abomination was the continuance of sacrifice after it was meant to stop. The central person is Christ, not Antichrist, and the prince who was to come referred to Titus who came forty years after the ‘weeks’ were over.

The traditional view of this passage, held by the Church until last century, was the correct one all along. Christ is the one who confirms the covenant! Christ is the one who causes sacrifice to cease! Christ is the one that makes the temple obsolete! Is this what happened? It surely did. In the midst of the seventieth ‘week’ – in the very midst – God caused the great curtain of the temple to be torn from top to bottom indicating that sacrifice (as far as He was concerned) had come to an end. The atonement was complete! Shortly afterward the ‘other prince,’ Titus the Roman, came and destroyed the temple altogether.

Please examine the text below comparing the alternative notes and notice how naturally the traditional explanation flows with events as they unfolded. For example, the destruction is attributed to “the people of the prince,” not to the prince himself. Such a distinction would be superfluous if it were not for the fact that Titus had instructed his troops to preserve the temple but they disobeyed orders and torched it.

Modern Futurist Interpretation

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Antichrist, from revived roman empire) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.
He (future Antichrist) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his treaty) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple desecrated) And on the wing of abominations (situated in a wing of the temple) shall be one who makes desolate, (Antichrists abomination) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Antichrist)​

Traditional Christian Interpretation

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.
He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)​

I concur fully with the historical understanding.

Grammatically, the antecedent of the "he's" in Daniel 9:27 is their closest related object in Daniel 9:26, which is the "prince". Since the only individual identified as a prince is Messiah, in Daniel 9:25, then the prince in Daniel 9:26 must also be Messiah.

The destruction, abomination, and desolation in verses 26 and 27 refer to prince Messiah's people, His agents of judgment and destruction, who were both the Romans and the Jews, operating under the command and control of prince Messiah to accomplish His purposes.

With this understanding, the entire passage exhibits full logic and consistency.

 

[A71]

Sammy Davis Jr. was an Orthodox Jew, even though he was from African ancestry.
He converted to the faith.
People from my family could convert to Orthodox Judaism, without a DNA test.
It is a faith based on the writings of the rabbis in the Babylonian Talmud.

However, there is a very high probability that some of Jacob's descendants are presently Orthodox Jews, because his DNA has been spread throughout most of the known world.
The same is true with Abraham's DNA.
Almost everyone on the planet is a descendant of Abraham.
If an Orthodox Jew claims to be a descendant of Abraham or Jacob, they are probably correct, and so would many other people in the world of various faiths.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
This fact is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

.

Yes, that is how it is.

The Jews are an ethnic group, culture and belief system that has endured two thousand years, just as many tribal systems have endured that and longer. That there will have been dilution is neither here nor there, other than that being most unfortunate for those who have been miscegenated.

All Judaism, in all its variant codes and strains, is unified by one common belief, that Jesus was not the Son of God.

You clearly regard the genetic component as significant, as your tagline is to reach out with the gospel to the sons of Jacob.

I suppose the point I am making is that you clearly believe in some further covenant to the New Covenant, because you have created a special category for the Jews. Nothing wrong with this, but you are arguing against yourself when you argue against God having ongoing promises and commitments which pre-date the New Covenant.

 

[BABerean2]

Nothing wrong with this, but you are arguing against yourself when you argue against God having ongoing promises and commitments which pre-date the New Covenant.

If you are claiming that Christ is not the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises, you are arguing against Paul in Galatians 3:16, and Jesus in Luke 24:25-27, and you are promoting some form of Dual Covenant Theology.

Based on Titus 3:9, there is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest and a modern descendant of Abraham living in the middle east.
They both need Christ for the same reason, and in the same way.


On the road to Emmaus the risen Savior revealed that the Old Testament is about Him.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


He said Moses and "all" of the prophets.
.

 

[A71]

I am asking you a simple question, why in your tagline do you state:

Support Jews for Jesus, and Word of Messiah Ministries.
The descendants of Jacob need to hear the Gospel, now.

If you are claiming that Christ is not the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises, you are arguing against Paul in Galatians 3:16, and you are promoting some form of Dual Covenant Theology.

Based on Titus 3:9, there is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest and a modern descendant of Abraham living in the middle east.
They both need Christ for the same reason, and in the same way.


On the road to Emmaus the risen Savior revealed that the Old Testament is about Him.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


He said Moses and "all" of the prophets.
.

 

[BABerean2]

I am asking you a simple question, why in your tagline do you state:

Support Jews for Jesus, and Word of Messiah Ministries.
The descendants of Jacob need to hear the Gospel, now.

Because those who are Orthodox Jews and claim to be the descendants of Jacob, need to hear the Gospel.

I once had a lady in my home for Bible study who considered herself both a follower of Christ and a descendant of Jacob.

There are members of this forum who now consider themselves to be Messianic Jews and who also consider themselves to be descendants of Jacob.

The modern Church has done a pitiful job overall of taking the Gospel to these people.


Now let me ask you a simple question... Do you believe in Dual Covenant Theology?

.

 

[A71]

But why have you singled them out?
The Great Commission says to take the gospel to all mankind.

Broadly speaking, yes.
In specifics, probably not.

Because those who are Orthodox Jews and claim to be the descendants of Jacob, need to hear the Gospel.

I once had a lady in my home for Bible study who considered herself both a follower of Christ and a descendant of Jacob.

There are members of this forum who now consider themselves to be Messianic Jews and who also consider themselves to be descendants of Jacob.

The modern Church has done a pitiful job overall of taking the Gospel to these people.


Now let me ask you a simple question... Do you believe in Dual Covenant Theology?

.

 

[BABerean2]

But why have you singled them out?
The Great Commission says to take the gospel to all mankind.

Broadly speaking, yes.
In specifics, probably not.

Do you ever answer any questions, or do you only ask them?

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

.

 

[A71]

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

.

So you are operating according to the Sinai Covenant. Why?

(My reply is there btw, In a separate paragraph. How can you miss it?)