When did/will the old covenant end?

[claninja]

What do we need to repent of when we first come to Christ? Let's start there, as you still are so confused.

If you are truly looking to clarify my confusion of your contradictory statements, then thank you.

We repent of our sin when we first come to Christ.

 

[1stcenturylady]

If you are truly looking to clarify my confusion of your contradictory statements, then thank you.

We repent of our sin when we first come to Christ.

Correct. Are you cleansed of all sin then?

 

[claninja]

Correct. Are you cleansed of all sin then?

I would say yes, When I repent he is faithful to forgive all sins

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I would say yes, When I repent he is faithful to forgive all sins

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Correct. Does that also mean future sins? Or does Jesus provide a way to be completely free indeed from the beginning.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Answer my question about 1 John 1:7. Here is a person walking in the Spirit, and yet the blood of Jesus is still cleansing sin. What kind?

I did answer you, and you have either a) ignored the answer or b) not understood the answer.

If "a", then I've no reason to answer you again and if "b", then God has covered your eyes and it's not my place to speak further.

I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I did answer you, and you have either a) ignored the answer or b) not understood the answer.

If "a", then I've no reason to answer you again and if "b", then God has covered your eyes and it's not my place to speak further.

I will keep you in my prayers.

I would say (c) not heard the answer.

 

[claninja]

Does that also mean future sins?

Only if I confess and repent.

Or does Jesus provide a way to be completely free indeed from the beginning.

Don't know what you mean by this. free from what beginning?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Only if I confess and repent.

If you are free from all sin, how are you sinning in the future?

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

What is He saying? Free for a minute or two? Or free indeed.

 

[claninja]

If you are free from all sin, how are you sinning in the future?

because I don't claim to be without sin

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[claninja]

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

What is He saying? Free for a minute or two? Or free indeed.

As long as I remain in Christ, I will always be free. free from the debt my sin brings

colossians 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

 

[1stcenturylady]

because I don't claim to be without sin

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The Spirit is not in the person saying that, so it is a lie, but it is not a Christian. Look at verse 6. Is the person claiming to have a relationship with God but walks in darkness a Christian?

 

[1stcenturylady]

As long as I remain in Christ, I will always be free. free from the debt my sin brings

colossians 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

So you believe that Jesus was referring to the punishment for sin, and not sin itself? It was sin, itself, that was nailed to the cross, and thus, the need for laws. Your doctrine means you can still sin, and only the punishment is cancelled. That is wrong. You're free from sin, itself. I see your belief about 1 John 1:8 is where you went off the rails. Common mistake, but crippling and the breeding ground for false doctrine. The truth is 1 John 3:5. That is a true Spirit-filled Christian, not the person in 1 John 1:8 without the Spirit of God in them, lying to themselves. You need the next verse, 1 John 1:9 to make that person a Christian and to receive the Holy Spirit, freeing them from sin, which is why they are together - context, context, context. I hope you will continue, as we may be off to a good start. Seeing as it has been over an hour since you replied, I'll leave this for now.

Let's look at the verse in context.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Sin is anything that falls short of the glory of God under the OT old covenants and/or NT New Covenant.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 

[1stcenturylady]

Sin is anything that falls short of the glory of God under the OT old covenants and/or NT New Covenant.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Yes, before Christ, it sure was - under the Old Covenant. But not under the New. Freedom from sin is the whole purpose of the New Covenant. 1 John 3:5

 

[claninja]

The Spirit is not in the person saying that, so it is a lie, but it is not a Christian. Look at verse 6. Is the person claiming to have a relationship with God but walks in darkness a Christian?

You appear to be misunderstanding the difference between believing it is ok to sin after becoming a christian and believing its not ok to sin after becoming a christian, but christians still sin in times of weakness and must repent.

 

[claninja]

So you believe that Jesus was referring to the punishment for sin, and not sin itself? It was sin, itself, that was nailed to the cross, and thus, the need for laws. Your doctrine means you can still sin, and only the punishment is cancelled. That is wrong. You're free from sin, itself. I see your belief about 1 John 1:8 is where you went off the rails. Common mistake, but crippling and the breeding ground for false doctrine. The truth is 1 John 3:5. That is a true Spirit-filled Christian, not the person in 1 John 1:8 without the Spirit of God in them, lying to themselves. You need the next verse, 1 John 1:9 to make that person a Christian and to receive the Holy Spirit, freeing them from sin, which is why they are together - context, context, context. I hope you will continue, as we may be off to a good start. Seeing as it has been over an hour since you replied, I'll leave this for now.

Let's look at the verse in context.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

So 1 John 1:8 is not about Christians?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Kaon]

So 1 John 1:8 is not about Christians?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if we said one white lie once in our life and came to the Most High God and never sinned. We would still need a Savior because breaking Universal Law of God has the sentence of death. We are dead; dead things sin. We do not have the body to sustain perfection - we are told that we would need to put on a perfect body when we get a perfect spirit. It shouldn't be hard to understand why; a carnal body cannot contain a perfect spirit. We have the Comforter to provide us with a conscious to know what is right and wrong - to convict us. We are supposed to be practicing (at least) for Eternity, because His Law is Founded. We will be judged by the same law (lest we gain perfection, and lose it because of the ignorance of the Law and its function - if it were possible.)

 

[RDKirk]

The first question to answer is which 'Old' Covenant'?

There are at least five covenants in the Bible between God and human beings, usually the Noaic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic and the New Covenants, and possibly more. We might assume that by the 'Old' covenant we really mean the Mosaic one, since this relates to the giving of the Law/Torah. We find New Testament passages explaining clearly enough that its jurisdiction over believers in Christ does not remain after we have received Christ. Even that understanding though still leaves another four more 'Old' covenants in place.

These covenants are also interwoven historically and narratively. With Noah we have the institution of a basic moral code and God's commitment to the redemption of all humankind. The Abrahamic constitutes God's people and gives them a land, the Mosaic remembers that people and instructs specifically how they should live in that land, the Davidic then assures an eternal Kingdom for the people, in the land overseeing God's instruction from the line of David (often interpreted as a 'Messiah'), then we have Jesus born in David's line to establish said Kingdom.

So to my mind we reflect Scripture far better to speak of the 'Old' and 'New' covenants confirming and ratifying one another, not of the 'Old' covenant ending. We are after all doing theology here, and the reason we can debate this is because the Scriptures don't speak directly in these exact terms. We are offering interpretation.

In Hebrew, the word 'Berith', or Covenant, is indicative of an eternal and unconditional relationship - I can provide follow up examples to back this up if anyone is interested. When God makes a covenant, therefore, it doesn't end. The relationship and promises remain in place forever, incorporated into anything that follows. A covenant is different from a contract, which is a conditional relationship. With a contract, promises and benefits depend strictly on the involved parties abiding by certain conditions. A contract makes provision for it breaking. A covenant does not.

Suggesting the Old Covenant ended involves turning a covenant into a contract. I would argue that when God makes a covenant, that's irrevocable. Again, I can say loads more addressing possible objections that covenants surely have to still be conditional.

The direct implications of this for us if accepted would be: 1) The continued place of the Jewish people as God's people as well as a positive assessment both of Jewish faith-practice and the importance of a home in Israel. 2) The church being fully grafted in and sharing that Israel-status with them (we are fully Torah observant 'in Christ', who kept the Law on our behalf). This also gives us irrevocable assurance of our Salvation in Christ once received, and the universality of God's calling to receive that gift of salvation (though not necessarily that all will receive it).

Would love to hear if that resonates with anybody.

So how do you handle Hebrews 8?

 

[1stcenturylady]

So 1 John 1:8 is not about Christians?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Correct. 1 John 1:8 is NOT about a Christian. But it is referring to those non-Christians in John's congregation. You have to read the whole epistle to keep it in context. Read 1 John 4:1-3 to find the group that were infiltrating the church. They were called Gnostics and did not believe that sins of the flesh were even called sins, only what they called sins of the spirit were called sins. That is why they would commit sins of the flesh, and say they didn't sin. There is much more to it than first meets the eye, so we need to study.

You have to make up your mind what you are going to believe. If you believe 1 John 1:8 is about Christians, that lends to the lie that it is just in your nature to sin. WRONG! You are a new creature in Christ with a brand new nature - that is what it means to be born again. You are freed from sin. Those who cannot relate to this teaching, may not even have the Spirit, for it is in the Spirit that you are NOT in the flesh.

The false teaching that claims 1 John 1:8 is about a Christian will also teach that Romans 7:14-23 is ALSO about a Christian. Do you believe that lie too? I would imagine so, as the false teachers of the one, are the false teachers of the other. It is time for you to learn the whole counsel of God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You appear to be misunderstanding the difference between believing it is ok to sin after becoming a christian and believing its not ok to sin after becoming a christian, but christians still sin in times of weakness and must repent.

The point again is going back to willful sin vs. unintentional sins. A person with the Holy Spirit cannot sin intentionally. It is just not in their nature. But in times of weakness, we will trespass unintentionally, but just not lawlessness (willful sins). 1 John 3:9