When did/will the old covenant end?

[Hazelelponi]

The new covenant is made with/for Israel, not the nations - Jeremiah 31:31-33

We are Israel..

 

[1stcenturylady]

There are not sins, as in plural, that lead to death. There is A sin (singular) that can lead to the death. John does not tell us what it is. Considering this is a highly debatable verse, I wouldn't build a doctrine on it.

The sins that a person committed that they KNEW were sin and against God's laws, and did them anyway, that person was put to death. Those are sins unto death. It is one category, and that is willful sins.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Correct, it doesn't.



There are not sins, as in plural, that lead to death. There is A sin (singular) that can lead to the death. John does not tell us what it is. Considering this is a highly debatable verse, I wouldn't build a doctrine on it.

1 John 5:16-17 16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and Goda will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin that does not lead to death.



Which can be forgiven by God.



absolutely agree. Which can be clearly seen in the doctrine of perfectionism.



No not a calvanist. Just a sinner who needs a savior every day.

In the world there are sinners and saints.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The sins that a person committed that they KNEW were sin and against God's laws, and did them anyway, that person was put to death. Those are sins unto death. It is one category, and that is willful sins.

There is a sin that leads to the second death. Refusing the gift of salvation.

If you are telling people they are beyond forgiveness because they, for example, lied to their Aunt Edna about her dress being pretty one day even knowing that to lie was to commit a sin and was from Satan, then you are trying to tell them to refuse the gift of salvation, since salvation is based on our sins being covered under the Blood of Christ - His forgiveness.

So who is doing the harm here?

 

[Kaon]

The first question to answer is which 'Old' Covenant'?

There are at least five covenants in the Bible between God and human beings, usually the Noaic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic and the New Covenants, and possibly more. We might assume that by the 'Old' covenant we really mean the Mosaic one, since this relates to the giving of the Law/Torah. We find New Testament passages explaining clearly enough that its jurisdiction over believers in Christ does not remain after we have received Christ. Even that understanding though still leaves another four more 'Old' covenants in place.

These covenants are also interwoven historically and narratively. With Noah we have the institution of a basic moral code and God's commitment to the redemption of all humankind. The Abrahamic constitutes God's people and gives them a land, the Mosaic remembers that people and instructs specifically how they should live in that land, the Davidic then assures an eternal Kingdom for the people, in the land overseeing God's instruction from the line of David (often interpreted as a 'Messiah'), then we have Jesus born in David's line to establish said Kingdom.

So to my mind we reflect Scripture far better to speak of the 'Old' and 'New' covenants confirming and ratifying one another, not of the 'Old' covenant ending. We are after all doing theology here, and the reason we can debate this is because the Scriptures don't speak directly in these exact terms. We are offering interpretation.

In Hebrew, the word 'Berith', or Covenant, is indicative of an eternal and unconditional relationship - I can provide follow up examples to back this up if anyone is interested. When God makes a covenant, therefore, it doesn't end. The relationship and promises remain in place forever, incorporated into anything that follows. A covenant is different from a contract, which is a conditional relationship. With a contract, promises and benefits depend strictly on the involved parties abiding by certain conditions. A contract makes provision for it breaking. A covenant does not.

Suggesting the Old Covenant ended involves turning a covenant into a contract. I would argue that when God makes a covenant, that's irrevocable. Again, I can say loads more addressing possible objections that covenants surely have to still be conditional.

The direct implications of this for us if accepted would be: 1) The continued place of the Jewish people as God's people as well as a positive assessment both of Jewish faith-practice and the importance of a home in Israel. 2) The church being fully grafted in and sharing that Israel-status with them (we are fully Torah observant 'in Christ', who kept the Law on our behalf). This also gives us irrevocable assurance of our Salvation in Christ once received, and the universality of God's calling to receive that gift of salvation (though not necessarily that all will receive it).

Would love to hear if that resonates with anybody.

YES! SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS COVENANT MEANS CONTRACT.

And, to determine if it is voided, we need to identify the parties involved, terms, conditions and any temporal boundaries associated.

The same contract can be made new by altering any one of the aforementioned.

 

[claninja]

The sins that a person committed that they KNEW were sin and against God's laws, and did them anyway, that person was put to death. Those are sins unto death. It is one category, and that is willful sins.

any sin, willful or unintentional, that is not repented of leads to death.

In the world there are sinners and saints.

thankfully it is not our own righteousness or works that make us saints, but the righteousness of God through Christ to us.

and thankfully God does forgive us of ALL unrighteousness when we repent.

 

[1stcenturylady]

any sin, willful or unintentional, that is not repented of leads to death.



thankfully it is not our own righteousness or works that make us saints, but the righteousness of God through Christ to us.

and thankfully God does forgive us of ALL unrighteousness when we repent.

Untrue. Only willful sins require repentance if committed after becoming born again.

 

[1stcenturylady]

and thankfully God does forgive us of ALL unrighteousness when we repent.

How many times does the New Testament say to repent?

 

[claninja]

Untrue. Only willful sins require repentance if committed after becoming born again.

where does it say that?

How many times does the New Testament say to repent?

every time I pray, And I pray every day:

Luke 11:2-4
So Jesus told them, “When you pray, say:
‘Father,a hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.b
Give us each day our daily bread.
And forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”c

 

[1stcenturylady]

where does it say that?

How can you repent and turn away from sin you don't know about? That is something you do naturally with your new nature once you have the Holy Spirit.

every time I pray, And I pray every day:

Luke 11:2-4
So Jesus told them, “When you pray, say:
‘Father,a hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.b
Give us each day our daily bread.
And forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”c

The Lord's prayer says what kind of "sins." Debts. In other words also translated trespasses. So what are trespasses? Leviticus 5:15 shows they are unintentional sins.

 

[Hazelelponi]

How can you repent and turn away from sin you don't know about? That is something you do naturally with your new nature once you have the Holy Spirit.



The Lord's prayer says what kind of "sins." Debts. In other words also translated trespasses. So what are trespasses? Leviticus 5:15 shows they are unintentional sins.

Two points here.

1) So are you seriously teaching that the Holy Spirit is falling down on the job as not to warn people away from sin?

2) the first word in the Lord's Prayer correctly translated is "sin" or "guilt", the second word correctly translated is "debt". Most translators want to make it the same word, but it's not in the text.

To learn why it's not the same word, it's directly pointing you to the parable in Matthew 18:21-35 . Might do you well to read it all, as Jesus is saying we need to forgive our brothers and sisters in Christ as much as necessary if we want our own sin-debts cancelled by Him in Heaven.

And that is what that passage in the Lord's Prayer is referring to. Here's the issue, those brothers and sisters we are to be forgiving an unlimited amount of time are our brothers and sisters in Christ... saved just as we are saved.

 

[claninja]

Your confusing me here. In one instance you say you only need to repent of wilfull sins:

Untrue. Only willful sins require repentance if committed after becoming born again.

Then you state you state jesus only meant unintentional sins in the lords's prayer

The Lord's prayer says what kind of "sins." Debts. In other words also translated trespasses. So what are trespasses? Leviticus 5:15 shows they are unintentional sins.

Jesus says pray daily for the forgiveness of sins. Then you said Jesus meant unintentional sins in the lords prayer. But you said you only pray for willful sins. But you also say true Christians don't willfully sin.

This is the most confusing belief I've ever encountered. It makes no sense.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Two points here.

1) So are you seriously teaching that the Holy Spirit is falling down on the job as not to warn people away from sin?

Just the opposite. What is willful sin? Lawlessness. Why are we no longer under the law? Because we walk in the Spirit. So it is a dumb question to assume the Spirit would lead you into sin.



What you are saying is exactly what Paul spoke against in correcting the Corinthians. They were forgiving the willful sin of a man sleeping with his step-mother. There are sins we commit against each other in unloving acts, and then there are sins we commit all the way against God, Himself, called lawlessness. In the Old Testament there were sacrifices for unintentional sins, but no sacrifice available for willful sins - they killed those who committed them.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Your confusing me here. In one instance you say you only need to repent of wilfull sins:


Then you state you state jesus only meant unintentional sins in the lords's prayer


Jesus says pray daily for the forgiveness of sins. Then you said Jesus meant unintentional sins in the lords prayer. But you said you only pray for willful sins. But you also say true Christians don't willfully sin.

This is the most confusing belief I've ever encountered. It makes no sense.

Sorry you are confused.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Just the opposite. What is willful sin? Lawlessness. Why are we no longer under the law? Because we walk in the Spirit. So it is a dumb question to assume the Spirit would lead you into sin.

Therefore ALL sin is willfull, and ALL sin we commit we have full knowledge of.

When you live in the Spirit there is literally NO SUCH THING as an unintended sin.

What? Do you think you slipped, tripped and [insert sin here] while walking in communion with the God of the universe?

What you are saying is exactly what Paul spoke against in correcting the Corinthians. They were forgiving the willful sin of a man sleeping with his step-mother. There are sins we commit against each other in unloving acts, and then there are sins we commit all the way against God, Himself, called lawlessness. In the Old Testament there were sacrifices for unintentional sins, but no sacrifice available for willful sins - they killed those who committed them.

The incident of incest in the Corinthian church was not because they offered forgiveness for the sin of incest, it was because they were ignoring it altogether even though the incestuous relationship was out in the open, the man was taking her to church for goodness sakes.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not there is forgiveness for sins committed after your saved and reconciliation to fellowship with God when you repent!

Saying God will forgive someone who repents is not the equivalent of ignoring all sin!

 

[1stcenturylady]

Therefore ALL sin is willfull, and ALL sin we commit we have full knowledge of.

"Therefore"??? I didn't say that. I said what God says. You say all sin is willful. He does not.

When you live in the Spirit there is literally NO SUCH THING as an unintended sin.

Read 1 John 1:7 and tell me then what type of sins is Jesus cleansing? Willful? NO! Willful sin is not done in the Spirit, because willful sin is of the flesh. But we are not in the flesh if we are in the Spirit. Romans 8:9

 

[claninja]

Sorry you are confused.

Are your really sorry though?

Here is what is confusing:

You state true Christians don't willfully sin. And you state only willful sins require repentance. This means that true Christians don't need to repent.

this directly contradicts Jesus' instruction on how to pray.

 

[Hazelelponi]

"Therefore"??? I didn't say that. I said what God says. You say all sin is willful. He does not.

You have to use Leviticus to find any reference to unintentional sin.

Do you know why? Because they weren't filled with the Holy Spirit when they were under the Mosaic covenant.

We have become the Temple of the Living God. Each and every one of us houses the Spirit of God in this our New Covenant age.

Which changes in what manner we receive the law. Now we receive it not on a tablet, not from levitical priests, not from texts but it's written directly on our hearts and the Spirit of God directs our path to follow His Perfect Law.

If you are committing unintentional sins then it's because you have ignored the Holy Spirit for so long you can no longer hear His voice at all...

1 Thessalonians 5:19

 

[1stcenturylady]

You have to use Leviticus to find any reference to unintentional sin.

Do you know why? Because they weren't filled with the Holy Spirit when they were under the Mosaic covenant.

We have become the Temple of the Living God. Each and every one of us houses the Spirit of God in this our New Covenant age.

Which changes in what manner we receive the law. Now we receive it not on a tablet, not from levitical priests, not from texts but it's written directly on our hearts and the Spirit of God directs our path to follow His Perfect Law.

If you are committing unintentional sins then it's because you have ignored the Holy Spirit for so long you can no longer hear His voice at all...

Answer my question about 1 John 1:7. Here is a person walking in the Spirit, and yet the blood of Jesus is still cleansing sin. What kind?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Are your really sorry though?

Here is what is confusing:

You state true Christians don't willfully sin. And you state only willful sins require repentance. This means that true Christians don't need to repent.

this directly contradicts Jesus' instruction on how to pray.

What do we need to repent of when we first come to Christ? Let's start there, as you still are so confused.