Was 1948 the Regathering of Israel in Bible Prophecy?

[parousia70]

The scriptures explicitly say that we are co-heirs with Christ. And they explicitly say that Christ will again regather the ancient nation of Israel into their ancient homeland, and bless hem there. These are two entirely different promises.

All the prophecies about a scattering AND REGATHERING of National Israel were fulfilled at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

There is not one single prophesy, in the Old Testament or New, written AFTER the Babylonian captivity, that mentions any subsequent scattering AND REGATHERING of Temporal, National Israel.

Not even one.

"In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places desolate . . . ye shall be scattered among the countries . . . among the nations whither they shall be carried captives . . . all the house of Israel shall remove and go into captivity . . . I will scatter them among the nations" (Ezekiel ch. 6).

This was the Diaspora. . . . And now the re-gathering of the Jews to their own land 70 years later:

"For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

Again, Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews. NOT EVEN ONE.

The Bible says they WOULD be dispersed into all nations,
The Bible then confirms they DID get dispersed into all nations.
The Bible says they would be gathered back FROM all nations.
The Bible then confirms they WERE gathered back from All nations.

Prophetic fulfillment has been realized. No further fulfillment of this prophecy is necessary or biblically warranted.

 

[jgr]

You do not believe that the New Will and Testament which Christ's death established, completely transcends, supersedes, and replaces the Old Will and Testament in its entirety. It transcends, supersedes, and replaces only the Mosaic covenant. All of the remainder of the Old Will and Testament is still in full force and effect.

Are those accurate statements?

I believe you've replied "no" to the question, Biblewriter.

If so, please identify the inaccuracy/inaccuracies.

 

[Traveling teacher]

All the prophecies about a scattering AND REGATHERING of National Israel were fulfilled at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

There is not one single prophesy, in the Old Testament or New, written AFTER the Babylonian captivity, that mentions any subsequent scattering AND REGATHERING of Temporal, National Israel.

Not even one.

"In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places desolate . . . ye shall be scattered among the countries . . . among the nations whither they shall be carried captives . . . all the house of Israel shall remove and go into captivity . . . I will scatter them among the nations" (Ezekiel ch. 6).

This was the Diaspora. . . . And now the re-gathering of the Jews to their own land 70 years later:

"For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

Again, Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews. NOT EVEN ONE.

The Bible says they WOULD be dispersed into all nations,
The Bible then confirms they DID get dispersed into all nations.
The Bible says they would be gathered back FROM all nations.
The Bible then confirms they WERE gathered back from All nations.

Prophetic fulfillment has been realized. No further fulfillment of this prophecy is necessary or biblically warranted.

actually those verse in Jeremiah 29 and ezekiel 6......
were never completely fulfilled until this century......

the Jews went into captivity 600 BC
for 70 years to Babylon that was overtaken by Persia....
they then returned from babylon...but not from any other country.....

So the return from Babylonian captivity was really only 1 nation of regathering....
the verse in
Jermiah 29
and I will gather you from all the nations .

was fulfilled in 1948.....and continues to today.....
Jews came from almost every country in the world:
Western Europe...
Eastern Europe.....
Russia.....
North and South America...
Ethiopia....all of north africa...
Middle East...every country...iran, iraq arabia yemen, turkey......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

here is a map of the exodus around 1948.....
this doesnt count the ones who have returned since then.....
https://democracychronicles.org/jewish-exodus-map/

 

[Biblewriter]

All the prophecies about a scattering AND REGATHERING of National Israel were fulfilled at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

There is not one single prophesy, in the Old Testament or New, written AFTER the Babylonian captivity, that mentions any subsequent scattering AND REGATHERING of Temporal, National Israel.

Not even one.

"In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places desolate . . . ye shall be scattered among the countries . . . among the nations whither they shall be carried captives . . . all the house of Israel shall remove and go into captivity . . . I will scatter them among the nations" (Ezekiel ch. 6).

This was the Diaspora. . . . And now the re-gathering of the Jews to their own land 70 years later:

"For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

Again, Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews. NOT EVEN ONE.

The Bible says they WOULD be dispersed into all nations,
The Bible then confirms they DID get dispersed into all nations.
The Bible says they would be gathered back FROM all nations.
The Bible then confirms they WERE gathered back from All nations.

Prophetic fulfillment has been realized. No further fulfillment of this prophecy is necessary or biblically warranted.

It is simple nonsense to even try to pretend that "all the house of Israel, all of it," ever returned to the land, as explicitly promised in Ezekiel 36:10, or to even pretend that Israel ever again had borders even approximately corresponding to those so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47, or was ever divided in the way detailed in Ezekiel 48.

These are only three of a great many explicitly stated prophecies which have unquestionably never been fulfilled.

 

[jgr]

It is simple nonsense to even try to pretend that "all the house of Israel, all of it," ever returned to the land, as explicitly promised in Ezekiel 36:10, or to even pretend that Israel ever again had borders even approximately corresponding to those so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47, or was ever divided in the way detailed in Ezekiel 48.

These are only three of a great many explicitly stated prophecies which have unquestionably never been fulfilled.

Still awaiting an answer on these:

You do not believe that the New Will and Testament which Christ's death established, completely transcends, supersedes, and replaces the Old Will and Testament in its entirety. It transcends, supersedes, and replaces only the Mosaic covenant. All of the remainder of the Old Will and Testament is still in full force and effect.

Are those accurate statements?

If not, please identify the inaccuracies.

 

[ebedmelech]

Actually, to anyone who is not totally prejudiced by false doctrine, It is completely obvious that what Romans 9:6-8 actually teaches is that only that portion of the physical children of Israel who share the faith of their father Abraham are counted as the seed. Only two verses earlier the Holy Spirit had led Paul to clearly define who he was speaking of. And this was "my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; Romans 9:3-4

Right there you show how you go opposite what the apostle is saying. He opens by showing his heart for Israel to come to salvation. This from a man being persecuted by his own people. He doesn't speak of "portions of the physical children of Israel" You do that Biblewriter...and it is error to do so.

Paul has just clearly stated this earlier in Romans 4:16-18
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

Your view is totally incorrect and you've missed what Paul is saying which is ALL are Israel who have the faith of Abraham. Read Romans 4 in it's entirety and it CRUSHES your view! Also remember "the seed" is Christ...you're told that in Galatians 3:15-18 so again you go totally opposite Paul!!!

 

[Biblewriter]

Still awaiting an answer on these:

You do not believe that the New Will and Testament which Christ's death established, completely transcends, supersedes, and replaces the Old Will and Testament in its entirety. It transcends, supersedes, and replaces only the Mosaic covenant. All of the remainder of the Old Will and Testament is still in full force and effect.

Are those accurate statements?

If not, please identify the inaccuracies.

Your terms "the New Will and Testament," and "the Old Will and Testament" do not even occur in scripture. These are constructs from your own imagination.

Actually, the Greek word "diakethe," word number 1242 in Strong's Greek Dictionary, which is sometimes translated "testament" in the New Testament, does not even necessarily refer to a Will. It is used in that sense in Hebrews 9, and perhaps in a few other scriptures, but that is all.

The Basic, essential, meaning of this Greek word is "covenant," and it is so translated in nearly two thirds (20 out of 33) of the places where it occurs.

So your entire line of reasoning about wills and testaments rests n a shaky foundation.

What was done away with was the Old Covenant under the law of Moses. The Holy Spirit very expressly teaches that the Old Testament promises that were not based on the law of Moses have not been done away with.

"Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise." Galatians 3:15-18

 

[jgr]

Your terms "the New Will and Testament," and "the Old Will and Testament" do not even occur in scripture. These are constructs from your own imagination.

Actually, the Greek word "diakethe," word number 1242 in Strong's Greek Dictionary, which is sometimes translated "testament" in the New Testament, does not even necessarily refer to a Will. It is used in that sense in Hebrews 9, and perhaps in a few other scriptures, but that is all.

The Basic, essential, meaning of this Greek word is "covenant," and it is so translated in nearly two thirds (20 out of 33) of the places where it occurs.

So your entire line of reasoning about wills and testaments rests n a shaky foundation.

What was done away with was the Old Covenant under the law of Moses. The Holy Spirit very expressly teaches that the Old Testament promises that were not based on the law of Moses have not been done away with.

"Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise." Galatians 3:15-18

Do these verses refer to a Will and Testament, or do they not?

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[jgr]

Your terms "the New Will and Testament," and "the Old Will and Testament" do not even occur in scripture. These are constructs from your own imagination.

Actually, the Greek word "diakethe," word number 1242 in Strong's Greek Dictionary, which is sometimes translated "testament" in the New Testament, does not even necessarily refer to a Will. It is used in that sense in Hebrews 9, and perhaps in a few other scriptures, but that is all.

The Basic, essential, meaning of this Greek word is "covenant," and it is so translated in nearly two thirds (20 out of 33) of the places where it occurs.

So your entire line of reasoning about wills and testaments rests n a shaky foundation.

What was done away with was the Old Covenant under the law of Moses. The Holy Spirit very expressly teaches that the Old Testament promises that were not based on the law of Moses have not been done away with.

"Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise." Galatians 3:15-18

I've been using "Will and Testament" to draw the parallel with temporal wills and testaments, which are based in their ancient Biblical forebears. As you're well aware, the two terms are synonymous. From Wikipedia:

"...the historical records show that the terms have been used interchangeably."

But since you take offense to the expression "Will and Testament", I will from henceforth use the term "Testament" only.

Your comments regarding covenants fail to include testators, and the deaths of testators, which are unique and peculiar to the testamentary forms of covenants. But they are specifically why Scripture is divided into an Old Testament and a New Testament. The promises and bequests of the former were fulfilled and inherited in their entirety upon the death of the Testator at Calvary, under the terms and conditions of His New Testament. (Hebrews 9:15-17)

That Testator is Christ.

Great news. The passage from Galatians which you cited confirms specifically that the Abrahamic Covenant and its promises are fulfilled in, and inherited by, Abraham's Seed, who is none other than Christ. Therefore, your Old Testament, which had been looking woefully gaunt with its contents of only the Mosaic Covenant, can now begin to fill out again with the re-addition of all of the promises to Abraham. Similarly, all New Testament references to the promises to Abraham can be re-included there.

By the time we're done, both Testaments will be back to full weight and strength.

And Christ will be the complete Fulfillment, and sole Heir, of the Old, according to the provisions of the New.

That's divine progress.

Praise to Messiah, and his complete and perfect accomplishments at Calvary. (Daniel 9:24-27)

 

[Biblewriter]

I've been using "Will and Testament" to draw the parallel with temporal wills and testaments, which are based in their ancient Biblical forebears. As you're well aware, the two terms are synonymous. From Wikipedia:

"...the historical records show that the terms have been used interchangeably."

But since you take offense to the expression "Will and Testament", I will from henceforth use the term "Testament" only.

Your comments regarding covenants fail to include testators, and the deaths of testators, which are unique and peculiar to the testamentary forms of covenants. But they are specifically why Scripture is divided into an Old Testament and a New Testament. The promises and bequests of the former were fulfilled and inherited in their entirety upon the death of the Testator at Calvary, under the terms and conditions of His New Testament. (Hebrews 9:15-17)

That Testator is Christ.

Great news. The passage from Galatians which you cited confirms specifically that the Abrahamic Covenant and its promises are fulfilled in, and inherited by, Abraham's Seed, who is none other than Christ. Therefore, your Old Testament, which had been looking woefully gaunt with its contents of only the Mosaic Covenant, can now begin to fill out again with the re-addition of all of the promises to Abraham. Similarly, all New Testament references to the promises to Abraham can be re-included there.

By the time we're done, both Testaments will be back to full weight and strength.

And Christ will be the complete Fulfillment, and sole Heir, of the Old, according to the provisions of the New.

That's divine progress.

Praise to Messiah, and his complete and perfect accomplishments at Calvary. (Daniel 9:24-27)

The problem with what you are saying, is that you are using your interpretation of the results of this as an excuse to disregard around half of what our God said in the Old Testament. The law was indeed set aside. But the unconditional promises made while that law was still in effect continue to be unconditional promises.

And you are still trying to dodge around the inescapable fact that if God made an unconditional promise, and then withdrew that promise, He was lying when He first made the promise. For He knew at the time He made the promise what He would do in the future.

 

[Biblewriter]

Do these verses refer to a Will and Testament, or do they not?

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Actually, if you go back and look, I referred to this passage.

 

[Biblewriter]

Your view is totally incorrect and you've missed what Paul is saying which is ALL are Israel who have the faith of Abraham. Read Romans 4 in it's entirety and it CRUSHES your view! Also remember "the seed" is Christ...you're told that in Galatians 3:15-18 so again you go totally opposite Paul!!!

You cannot quote even one scripture that says that all who have the faith of Abraham are Israel. It says that all inherit the promise the Holy Spirit was speaking of at the time. But you are ignoring the fact that the Holy Spirit had opened Romans 9 by defining the fact that He was speaking of Paul's "brethren according to the flesh, who are Israelites," and explicitly said that "the promises" still pertained to them.

 

[jgr]

The problem with what you are saying, is that you are using your interpretation of the results of this as an excuse to disregard around half of what our God said in the Old Testament. The law was indeed set aside. But the unconditional promises made while that law was still in effect continue to be unconditional promises.

And you are still trying to dodge around the inescapable fact that if God made an unconditional promise, and then withdrew that promise, He was lying when He first made the promise. For He knew at the time He made the promise what He would do in the future.

My interpretation is exactly what is in the Galatians passage that you cited.

The promises were made to Christ. He is their Heir.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

God replaced His old covenant and promises with a better covenant and promises. Does that make Him a liar?

If you did the same with your own will and testament, would that make you a liar?

The answer in both cases is self-evident.

 

[Biblewriter]

My interpretation is exactly what is in the Galatians passage that you cited.

The promises were made to Christ. He is their Heir.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

God replaced His old covenant and promises with a better covenant and promises. Does that make Him a liar?

If you did the same with your own will and testament, would that make you a liar?

The answer in both cases is self-evident.

You are still trying to dodge the fact that you are calling God a liar. He made MANY promises, not only to Abraham, but specifically to MANY of Abraham's descendants. If even one of these promises will not actually be kept, then God lied what He made them. This is an unavoidable result of your false interpretations.

 

[jgr]

You are still trying to dodge the fact that you are calling God a liar. He made MANY promises, not only to Abraham, but specifically to MANY of Abraham's descendants. If even one of these promises will not actually be kept, then God lied what He made them. This is an unavoidable result of your false interpretations.

You didn't answer the questions, so I'll repeat them:

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

God replaced His old covenant and promises with a better covenant and promises. Does that make Him a liar?

If you did the same with your own will and testament, would that make you a liar?

 

[Biblewriter]

You didn't answer the questions, so I'll repeat them:

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

God replaced His old covenant and promises with a better covenant and promises. Does that make Him a liar?

If you did the same with your own will and testament, would that make you a liar?

A will and testament is a document subject to revision, up to the time of death. But a promisary note continues to be in effect, even after the promisor has died. Just try to take possession of a mortgaged home after the "owner" has died. You will quickly find that the REAL owner is the mortgage holder, and you cannot actually inherit the home until you have paid off the mortgage.

So, a change in a will and testament is not a lie. But an attempt to change a promise to which no conditions were attached is a breach of contract, and is punishable by law.

You are falsely pretending that everything in the Old Testament is part of the "Old will and testament," and therefore no longer applies. But this is completely false, as is clearly pointed out in numerous [laces in the New Testament. For it repeatedly insists that the old unconditional promises still apply, and even bases our own hope on the unconditional nature of the promises of God.

 

[jgr]

A will and testament is a document subject to revision, up to the time of death. But a promisary note continues to be in effect, even after the promisor has died. Just try to take possession of a mortgaged home after the "owner" has died. You will quickly find that the REAL owner is the mortgage holder, and you cannot actually inherit the home until you have paid off the mortgage.

So, a change in a will and testament is not a lie. But an attempt to change a promise to which no conditions were attached is a breach of contract, and is punishable by law.

You are falsely pretending that everything in the Old Testament is part of the "Old will and testament," and therefore no longer applies. But this is completely false, as is clearly pointed out in numerous [laces in the New Testament. For it repeatedly insists that the old unconditional promises still apply, and even bases our own hope on the unconditional nature of the promises of God.

So,

Is Hebrews 8:6 referring to a will and testament, or to a promissory note?

Is Galatians 3:16 referring to a will and testament, or to a promissory note?

 

[ebedmelech]

You cannot quote even one scripture that says that all who have the faith of Abraham are Israel. It says that all inherit the promise the Holy Spirit was speaking of at the time. But you are ignoring the fact that the Holy Spirit had opened Romans 9 by defining the fact that He was speaking of Paul's "brethren according to the flesh, who are Israelites," and explicitly said that "the promises" still pertained to them.

Your failure in interpreting Paul, is that Paul is talking on the basis of "those who have the faith of Abraham" Biblewriter. This is the most crucial error you make!

When Paul opens Roman's 9, he is answering the question "What about my people Israel?", that is the thrust of Roman's 9: 1-5.

In Roman's 9:8 Paul makes clear what he means saying "it IS NOT the children of THE FLESH who are CHILDREN OF GOD but the children of THE PROMISE are REGARDED AS DESCENDENTS." Now, if you are going to deny THE PROMISE is Christ, then it's obvious why you are in error, because this is where you depart from Paul's point. Roman's 4:13-18 puts you in checkmate (so to speak).

You hold your erroneous teaching above scripture!

 

[parousia70]

actually those verse in Jeremiah 29 and ezekiel 6......
were never completely fulfilled until this century......

Here is Ezekiel 6 in it's entirety.

Please correlate the events described therein with ANY 20th or 21st century events as you claim:

1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, set your face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them,

3And say, You mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.

4And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols.

5And I will lay the dead bodies of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.

6In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and destroyed, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished.

7And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and you shall know that I am the LORD.

8Yet will I leave a remnant, that you may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when you shall be scattered through the countries.

9And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations where they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their adulterous heart, which has departed from me, and with their eyes, which play the harlot after their idols: and they shall loathe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

10And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.

11Thus says the Lord GOD; Strike with your hand, and stamp with your foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence.

12He that is far off shall die of the pestilence; and he that is near shall fall by the sword; and he that remains and is besieged shall die by the famine: thus will I accomplish my fury upon them.

13Then shall you know that I am the LORD, when their slain men shall be among their idols round about their altars, upon every high hill, in all the tops of the mountains, and under every green tree, and under every thick oak, the place where they did offer sweet incense to all their idols.

14So will I stretch out my hand upon them, and make the land desolate, yea, more desolate than the wilderness toward Diblah, in all their habitations: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

 

[BABerean2]

You are still trying to dodge the fact that you are calling God a liar. He made MANY promises, not only to Abraham, but specifically to MANY of Abraham's descendants. If even one of these promises will not actually be kept, then God lied what He made them. This is an unavoidable result of your false interpretations.

What part of Matthew 1:1, and Matthew 3:9, and Galatians 3:16, and Matthew 21:42-43, and Titus 3:9 do you not understand?

.