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Tree Rings a Problem for 6,000 Year Old Earth

Johnny4ChristJesus

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Johnny: << You do realize that the supposed geologic column can be created by a flood, too, right? >>

No, it can't. Take the Grand Canyon, which creationists love to talk about. There are eleven (11) distinct strata, or eleven layers, in the Grand Canyon. There is no way a year-long global flood would lay down eleven separate layers. See my thread on the subject,
Grand Canyon Disproves Creationism.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ves-creationism.8022517/page-10#post-73049669

Johnny4: << Do you not think that the world is at enmity with God, like Scripture says? >>

Jesus was very observant about the physical world. He never told us to ignore the physical world or the natural world. When Jesus and Paul warn us about "the world," they are talking about the human world, about pagan society as it was at that time.

Johnny4: << . The idea of a "big bang" that "produces everything from nothing" randomly happens with no outside cause is the most obnoxiously stupid idea that has ever been posited; >>

Except that science never said any such thing. No has claimed that there is no cause, what science says is that when you go back to the original singularity, the equations break down and we can go no further.

I am NOT the one who doesn't believe God. You are. If you diligently seek God, I believe He promises that He will deliver you from that. I understand that once you start believing the lies, it is hard to know when to start believing God. So, if you want to believe humans over God, God allows it. But, I won't let you pull me into the web of lies.

I don't believe in evolution. I believe what God said. If you wish to believe your distant relatives were monkeys, go for it! And, live with the consequences of that choice.

I am also convinced the dating techniques used by man are another one of the biggest deceptions used by unbelievers to make believers start to question God. I am fully aware of some incredible discrepancies in dating using the claimed techniques.
 
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joshua 1 9

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we cannot say with 100% certainty what ALL of these light sources are like. Also, stars may be closer than we think, as well. How so?
It is a disgrace to our public school system that you know as little as you do about science. Clearly the educational system has failed to get their job done. A good place for you to start would be science daily. That way you can keep up with the news and get an education in science. Also the articles are quick and easy and do not take long to read. Ideal for people with short attention spans. A lot of information never finds it's way into books. People just read magazines, even doctors keep up with the latest finding this way. If you want to study what Science has to say about the plants in the Bible then the key words for that are botany and ancient plants in the Middle East. The Phd's that teach on this subject at the universities in Jerusalem do not write that many books. Most of their findings and research they put into what they call peer review magazine articles. So they have a discussion with themselves in this way about a subject that they are all interested in. What we see is that domesticated plants come from wild plants. All the cultivated plants that we read about in our Bible like the Fig tree & grapes, wheat and rye and so on. They all grow in the Middle East. Science thinks that the wild plants are still there that we get our domesticated plants from. They have them all categorized. Adam really was the first scientest:

Genesis 2 "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

Do you see what you are reading here? Do you understand what God is trying to tell you? We read: "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air" You like to number these things. In the Hebrew we have five - two - five words for a total of 12 words. Lord God formed (out of) Ground. That is a total of five words in the Hebrew. Now the names of God are sacred and we should not be listing them here on a public forum, but I will this time. We have Yah·weh & we have Elohim. Lord usually means Jesus because Jesus was with God in the beginning and it was in and through Jesus that God created this world that we live in. Now just these two word: "Lord God" would take a whole book to explain. I am not going to go into all of that right now. There is just to much there to talk about because the Bible tells us so much. For example Moses tells us in Deut that "The Lord our God is one". The word here for God: Elohim has slightly different spelling and each Hebrew letter is a symbol with profound meaning. I am just now starting to do a study on the Hebrew letters and how powerful the Hebrew language is. The point here is that there is unity between Jesus and God. We have not even got into a discussion about the Holy Spirit and how the Three are One. Maybe you know more about all of this then I do because this is just in the Bible. Science has nothing to say about this.

Ok lets look at the next three words: "Formed (out of) Ground". Out of is one word in the Hebrew. KJV also translates this word "FROM". This Hebrew word or a variation of the spelling of this word is used 1280 times in the Bible. So maybe you can look at all of those verses to get some context and to get an idea of HOW God FORMED OUT of the GROUND. Or you could go to Science to see how God formed out of the ground. But science is going to take you on a wild journey teaching you HOW God did what He did. Because the Bible tends to teach us WHY GOD did what HE did. If you think Science can not teach you anything at all about HOW God did what He did, then I do not know what to say without being judgmental or condemning you. Which the Bible teaches us NOT to do. We know the Bible says if people do not want to know the truth then knock the dust off of your feet and be on your way.

Ok, we looked at the first 5 words. Broken down into 2 & 3. WE have the Lord God and we have FORMED FROM GROUND (out of). Ok that is nice, now what did the Lord God form out of the ground? The next two words are: EVERY BEAST. Now we do not need to make a big deal out of EVERY or ALL KAL in the Hebrew. WE know what that means. But what is a BEAST? We find the Hebrew word CHAY. This is a word used 503 times in the Bible with various spelling. Remember each letter in the Hebrew is a symbol with meaning. So the differnet spelling are going to have different meaning based on those letters. Usually this word is translated as life, living or beast. Again it would take a whole book to understand what a living beast is. We do not have time for that. But Science and the Bible tells us a lot. Hundreds of thousands of books have been and can be written about all the living beasts here on planet earth. Many many many book written to explain just ONE word in the Bible: Beast. The Bible tells us WHY God created all the Beasts on the planet and in the field. Science tells us HOW God does this.

Again and I can not tell you enough how important this is. The Bible talks about WHY God is doing what HE is doing. Science talks about HOW God did what He did. God wants us to know BOTH WHY and HOW. We know that from the very beginning what God does is a done deal because HE watches over His Word to perform and to do what HE says He is going to do. His Word will accomplish His purpose. If not if there is no fruit then the tree is cut down and thrown into the fire. But first Jesus tells us that you cultivate the tree to give it a chance to produce fruit before you destroy the tree. Just like God does not let us go wild but He grooms us and cultivates us so that we are cultured and all of that.

As long was we are here then we may as well do the last five words. Field and every bird (of the air). Of the air is a complicated word used 236 times: haš·šā·ma·yim . It is one word though in the Hebrew. Now lets go back and look at the first word here: FIELD: sadeh. It looks like you have never given this word any thought. Again many books could be written about this word and yet people yawn and do not give this word any respect at all.

This word: FIELD is what the Garden of Eden is all about. Science uses the word domesticated where the Bible word is FIELD. This is when people start to have a problem with science and there is a lot to sort though. First we need to look at what out Bible has to say about all of this. So we can go to Gen 2:5 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground."

Notice this is the FIRST use of the word FIELD in the Bible. What can you tell me about what the Bible says about Every Plant of the FIELD? Hundreds of books, hundreds of thousands of books could be written about every plant of the field. BECAUSE this was a beginning. Because of the word BEFORE "Before it was IN the EARTH".

Now you do not believe in a distinction between a wild and a domesticated plant, so I may as well just stop here at this point. Rather then to get into a discussion about something that you have already decided you do not believe in.
 
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joshua 1 9

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I don't believe in evolution. I believe what God said. If you wish to believe your distant relatives were monkeys, go for it!
What they believe is that Man and monkey have a common ancestor. The word for this is Patriarch and Matriarch. This is exactly what Adam and Eve were. Common ancestors. This is where we get the term monkeys uncle. My nieces and nephews are sort of cute little monkeys so I can see where they could get this term from. Still Jesus became a part of His Creation & we are co heirs of Christ. If we suffer with Him then we shall be partakes and we shall be glorifed with Him. Jesus said Thy will be done, Thy Kingdom Come on Earth as it is in Heaven. So I believe that the day will come when Heaven and Earth will be united together and they will become one.
 
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It is a disgrace to our public school system that you know as little as you do about science. Clearly the educational system has failed to get their job done. A good place for you to start would be science daily. That way you can keep up with the news and get an education in science. Also the articles are quick and easy and do not take long to read. Ideal for people with short attention spans.

Thank you. I needed a good laugh this morning. Your sarcasm is funny. As I said, I am not discounting that most stars are similar in substance to our sun, but we have not cataloged every star up close in our universe. We cannot say they are exactly all the same (although they could be). I am aware of nebulas, novas, and other astrological phenomena and the explanation behind them, as well. I am not sure what you think I am missing. Is your problem with my interpretation of the distance of those stars in the fact that they MAY be closer than we think because our galaxy is acting like a lens distorting our perspective of the distance of the stars in our universe? Maybe secular Science that is more philosophy mixed with math has clouded your thinking. I don’t know. Only God knows your heart and where your trust truly rests. But I can tell you that my trust is first in God’s Word and my hope is in Jesus Christ and it is not in Science. Science (that is observable) is what comes second for me. For me: God and His Word comes first. I just do not see that in my discussions most times with Old Earth Creationists. It’s always...”Science this and Science that” which seems to take first place for them with the Bible taking second fiddle (or not at all).

You said:
A lot of information never finds it's way into books. People just read magazines, even doctors keep up with the latest finding this way. If you want to study what Science has to say about the plants in the Bible then the key words for that are botany and ancient plants in the Middle East. The Phd's that teach on this subject at the universities in Jerusalem do not write that many books. Most of their findings and research they put into what they call peer review magazine articles. So they have a discussion with themselves in this way about a subject that they are all interested in. What we see is that domesticated plants come from wild plants. All the cultivated plants that we read about in our Bible like the Fig tree & grapes, wheat and rye and so on. They all grow in the Middle East. Science thinks that the wild plants are still there that we get our domesticated plants from. They have them all categorized. Adam really was the first scientest:

I can just imagine talking with God in Heaven one day. Do you really think in our conversation that God would have wished for me to spend more time with my life in cataloging more plants from the Bible or in being more loving and good towards our fellow neighbor in love (by helping the poor, the widow, those in prison, the orphan, etc.)?

Granted, I am discounting the importance of Science involving the Bible, but for me it is nowhere near as important as loving God and in loving others.

You said:
Genesis 2 "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

Do you see what you are reading here? Do you understand what God is trying to tell you? We read: "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air" You like to number these things. In the Hebrew we have five - two - five words for a total of 12 words. Lord God formed (out of) Ground. That is a total of five words in the Hebrew. Now the names of God are sacred and we should not be listing them here on a public forum, but I will this time. We have Yah·weh & we have Elohim. Lord usually means Jesus because Jesus was with God in the beginning and it was in and through Jesus that God created this world that we live in. Now just these two word: "Lord God" would take a whole book to explain. I am not going to go into all of that right now. There is just to much there to talk about because the Bible tells us so much. For example Moses tells us in Deut that "The Lord our God is one". The word here for God: Elohim has slightly different spelling and each Hebrew letter is a symbol with profound meaning. I am just now starting to do a study on the Hebrew letters and how powerful the Hebrew language is. The point here is that there is unity between Jesus and God. We have not even got into a discussion about the Holy Spirit and how the Three are One. Maybe you know more about all of this then I do because this is just in the Bible. Science has nothing to say about this.

Ok lets look at the next three words: "Formed (out of) Ground". Out of is one word in the Hebrew. KJV also translates this word "FROM". This Hebrew word or a variation of the spelling of this word is used 1280 times in the Bible. So maybe you can look at all of those verses to get some context and to get an idea of HOW God FORMED OUT of the GROUND. Or you could go to Science to see how God formed out of the ground. But science is going to take you on a wild journey teaching you HOW God did what He did. Because the Bible tends to teach us WHY GOD did what HE did. If you think Science can not teach you anything at all about HOW God did what He did, then I do not know what to say without being judgmental or condemning you. Which the Bible teaches us NOT to do. We know the Bible says if people do not want to know the truth then knock the dust off of your feet and be on your way.

Ok, we looked at the first 5 words. Broken down into 2 & 3. WE have the Lord God and we have FORMED FROM GROUND (out of). Ok that is nice, now what did the Lord God form out of the ground? The next two words are: EVERY BEAST. Now we do not need to make a big deal out of EVERY or ALL KAL in the Hebrew. WE know what that means. But what is a BEAST? We find the Hebrew word CHAY. This is a word used 503 times in the Bible with various spelling. Remember each letter in the Hebrew is a symbol with meaning. So the differnet spelling are going to have different meaning based on those letters. Usually this word is translated as life, living or beast. Again it would take a whole book to understand what a living beast is. We do not have time for that. But Science and the Bible tells us a lot. Hundreds of thousands of books have been and can be written about all the living beasts here on planet earth. Many many many book written to explain just ONE word in the Bible: Beast. The Bible tells us WHY God created all the Beasts on the planet and in the field. Science tells us HOW God does this.

Again and I can not tell you enough how important this is. The Bible talks about WHY God is doing what HE is doing. Science talks about HOW God did what He did. God wants us to know BOTH WHY and HOW. We know that from the very beginning what God does is a done deal because HE watches over His Word to perform and to do what HE says He is going to do. His Word will accomplish His purpose. If not if there is no fruit then the tree is cut down and thrown into the fire. But first Jesus tells us that you cultivate the tree to give it a chance to produce fruit before you destroy the tree. Just like God does not let us go wild but He grooms us and cultivates us so that we are cultured and all of that.

As long was we are here then we may as well do the last five words. Field and every bird (of the air). Of the air is a complicated word used 236 times: haš·šā·ma·yim . It is one word though in the Hebrew. Now lets go back and look at the first word here: FIELD: sadeh. It looks like you have never given this word any thought. Again many books could be written about this word and yet people yawn and do not give this word any respect at all.

This word: FIELD is what the Garden of Eden is all about. Science uses the word domesticated where the Bible word is FIELD. This is when people start to have a problem with science and there is a lot to sort though. First we need to look at what out Bible has to say about all of this. So we can go to Gen 2:5 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground."

Notice this is the FIRST use of the word FIELD in the Bible. What can you tell me about what the Bible says about Every Plant of the FIELD? Hundreds of books, hundreds of thousands of books could be written about every plant of the field. BECAUSE this was a beginning. Because of the word BEFORE "Before it was IN the EARTH".

Now you do not believe in a distinction between a wild and a domesticated plant, so I may as well just stop here at this point. Rather then to get into a discussion about something that you have already decided you do not believe in.

Okay you quote Genesis 2:5, but you still ignore the plain normal reading in English in favor of your own belief. There was not a man to till the ground. That is what it says. Also, shaking the dust off your feet is in reference to spreading the good news about Jesus. If a house does not accept your message about Jesus, then you are to basically move on. You have taken it to refer to your gospel of Science within the Bible. But that is not the good news. Jesus is our good news and it is not Science.
 
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joshua 1 9

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we have not cataloged every star up close
Every element burns at a different color. So they can use a spectrum graph to determine what elements are in a star. They even have a spectrum lens you can put on a any camera. You should do some research on this if you want to talk about stars. They know a lot about stars from the different instruments they use to study them.

I had a dream once when I was 12 years old. I was out in the universe and the universe was expanding. God told me that at a point in time the Universe would start to come back together again. He told me my family was going to expand and get further apart but eventually they would come back together again.

There was not a man to till the ground.
The word here is ṭe·rem. The Bible is talking about a time BEFORE there was a man to till the ground. That was before: "Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being" Gen 2: You do not want to accept that this is talking about the beginning of the 8th day. So believe whatever you want to believe. For me God created man on day 6 and Adam on day 8. Theistic evolution would say that God took the man he created on day 6 and that man evolved into Adam when God Breathed the Breath of life into Him. Yes we still have Gobekli Tepe in Turkey that goes back 11,000 years. That is 5,000 years before Adam and that is difficult to explain. Some things are just to difficult to explain. God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. Yet "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" Eph 1:4. How could He choose us before their was a world if He did not create us until 6,000 years ago?

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Every element burns at a different color. So they can use a spectrum graph to determine what elements are in a star. They even have a spectrum lens you can put on a any camera. You should do some research on this if you want to talk about stars. They know a lot about stars from the different instruments they use to study them.

I had a dream once when I was 12 years old. I was out in the universe and the universe was expanding. God told me that at a point in time the Universe would start to come back together again. He told me my family was going to expand and get further apart but eventually they would come back together again.

The word here is ṭe·rem. The Bible is talking about a time BEFORE there was a man to till the ground. That was before: "Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being" Gen 2: You do not want to accept that this is talking about the beginning of the 8th day. So believe whatever you want to believe. For me God created man on day 6 and Adam on day 8. Theistic evolution would say that God took the man he created on day 6 and that man evolved into Adam when God Breathed the Breath of life into Him. Yes we still have Gobekli Tepe in Turkey that goes back 11,000 years. That is 5,000 years before Adam and that is difficult to explain. Some things are just to difficult to explain. God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. Yet "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" Eph 1:4. How could He choose us before their was a world if He did not create us until 6,000 years ago?

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I am not going to argue with you over the Science of the stars. Jesus. That is His name. He made the stars. Jesus is what we should be talking about always and what He has done for us with His death and resurrection. He should be the driving focus of our Theology and in the way we approach life.

Side Note:

As for Genesis 2:5:
Genesis 2:5-25 is all one chapter in a story (i.e. the Story of Adam and Eve). It is a retelling of Day 6 in Genesis 1.

If Adam was created on Day 8 in Genesis 2:7, then you have to include Genesis 2:5 as a part of that day because Genesis 2:5-7 is an uninterrupted flow of information.

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:5-7).

#1. Here we have plants already in existence growing and it was said that no man was on the Earth to till the ground.
#2. There went up a mist of water from the Earth to water the ground.
#3. The Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground.

There is no break in time or a stop point and beginning point in the telling of this story.
Genesis 2:4 is a beginning or an end of a telling of a story (i.e. the Story of Creation being from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:1-3 or from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:1-4).

The only way a person would say Genesis 2:5 happens as part of a separate previous creation of man is if they want there to be one. The text does not read like the way you want it to. Genesis 2:5 should be between Genesis 1:25 and Genesis 1:26 if you desire it to say what you prefer (in favor of your view of secular Science). Anyways, what your failing to see here is Jesus. Jesus can be seen in Genesis chapter 1. Most do not realize this, but God showed me this one day.

You can check out my findings on this at this thread here at CF:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/jesus-in-genesis-chapter-1.7908329/

For the OT is all about Jesus. While the OT may contain Science, it is not about Science. It's about Jesus.
 
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For Jesus said,
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me."
(John 5:39).

Jesus did not say, “Search the Scriptures;
for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of Science.”

While Science can be found in God’s Word and can even help a person in some cases to be led to Christ, the focus is Jesus in the Bible and not Science.
 
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joshua 1 9

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If Adam was created on Day 8 in Genesis 2:7, then you have to include Genesis 2:5 as a part of that day because Genesis 2:5-7 is an uninterrupted flow of information.
Genesis 2:7 is talking about the Garden in Eden. This is a work God was doing around 6 thousand years ago. The male and female we read about in Genesis chapter one had their beginning around 55 million years ago. Primates have been around 85 million years.

The reason Jesus was born on the fifth day after Adam is because there was no life on the Earth until the fifth day. At least not the life we read about on the fifth day in the Bible.

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#1. Here we have plants already in existence growing and it was said that no man was on the Earth to till the ground.
Yes you can check Wiki for a explanation of the Neolithic Revolution. Man was a hunter gather for millions of years. WE did not settle down to become civilized until around 6,000 years ago. Here in American the Indians were hunter gathers when Columbus came over. They did not have permanent settlements. When we were kids we were still finding arrowheads from when the Indians would hunt for their dinner.

If God started with Adam and Eve then how to you explain hunter gathers? Man has been grinding grains for 20,000 years. The grains we find are from wild plants. We do not find domesticated plants until Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago.

I remember once looking for who invented the pie. I never found out because they have been around for a very long time. They would take grains and soak them in water to make them softer. Esp when they were older and their teeth were wearing down. Then they would mix some berries in with the gains and perhaps put it by the fire. Before you know it they were making pies.

Fire itself is also very interesting. Just when did man begin to build a fire and cook their food? Some people believe cooking food had a lot to do with evolution because this makes food a lot easier to digest. I have researched and studied a lot of this. When did man first make a hunting spear? When did the first begin to make simple tools? When did they first begin to make farming tools?

The first word in the Bible is beginning. God proclaims the end from the beginning. There are many many beginnings in Science and in the Bible. All of our discussion for how long now has to do with the beginning. What began when. When Jesus went to Calvery He said: It is finished. Is it really finished? Or is it finished we the fruit is mature at the harvest. OR maybe it is finished when we see a new Heaven and a New Earth. So even though Jesus proclaimed 2,000 years ago that it is finished - it is not going to be finished for another 1,000 years.

Isa 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

You can not have a beginning without an end. You can not have an end without a beginning. Adam and Eve were a new beginning. But they were also the end of a work that God had been doing for a very long time. Hunter gathers were coming to an end. Food producers were beginning.

In Genesis chapter one man was told to: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it". That is exactly what he did. Around 40,000 years ago man came up out of Africa. He had a sowing needle and he could make clothing so he could move north into the colder climates. He took over the area that Neanderthal man was in. Over time Neanderthals went into extinction. Eventually He spread to the whole world. Just as God commanded him to do.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it;

The question for Science is when was the beginning of farming, when was the beginning of civilization. When and where did man settle down and build cities. The answers we find follows the Bible exactly. Farming began in the Tigris - Euphrates river valley in the middle east.

14The name of the third river is Hiddekel (Tigris); it runs along the east side of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. 15 Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.

What does this mean that God: "took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it"? Science answers all of these questions. God used the earth to create man. Science will tell you all of the exact elements from the earth that we find in man. We can trace the light from the sun. WE can see how the plants take light and they make oxygen and food for man to eat. Man on day five could not survive if it were not for the plants and animals that God made on day four. They could not survive if it were not for the work God did on day one, two and three. All of this can be found in hundreds of thousands of Science books that shows us HOW God did what He did.

John tells us that every book in the world would not be enough to tell us of all that Jesus did. God is infinite so all the books in the world could not begin to tell the story. Every book that science has ever written is barely a beginning to tell the story of what God has done.

John 21 25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

We live in a day and age of specialists. People have to learn and study all their life just to learn a tiny little bit to make a living. Doctors specialize. There are more then one specialty for the heart. ONE does the electrical, the other does the mechanical. I studied theater in college so I was trained to work on the electrical lighting crew for the state ballet company. Everyone has something they train for and specialize in. I know a girl that works on an ultrasound machine. The machine itself is simple enough but the body is very complicated. So they have to train for different area of the body.

People want a quick fast easy story but it is not all so fast and it is not all so easy. It takes a lot of time, effort and study to understand what God is doing and what is really going on. I have been doing this for 50 years and I still am just beginning. I am just getting started. There are people that spend 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week to read and study their Bible. AT the end of their life they are just getting started. Maybe they have one book they produced to show the life time of work they did.
 
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BroRoyVa79

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16 thousand?

There are 200 thousand genus of animals, 30, thousand genus of plant.

Young earthers seem to believe that lions and tigers could have evolved from a unique ancestor in just 3000 years, and that hundreds of thousands of unique arthropods could do the same. They essentially believe in some form of hyper evolution for which there is no evidence.

And of course there is no explanation for things like the biostratigraphy distribution of marsupials, as someone pointed out above, there is no explanation for how animals arrived at where they are nor why fossils leave s trail straight to modern day extant counterparts.


View attachment 238625

First, did you read the articles, because my summation did not do it justice? In fact, upon revisiting the articles I realized that in my haste, I misstated much of what was in it. I will simply quote what is said, emphasis mine:

How did all the animals fit on Noah’s Ark? said:
What is a ‘kind’? God created a number of different types of animals with much capacity for variation within limits. The descendants of each of these different kinds, apart from humans, would today mostly be represented by a larger grouping than what is called a species. In most cases, those species descended from a particular original kind would be grouped today within what modern taxonomists (biologists who classify living things) call a genus (plural genera).

One common definition of a species is a group of organisms which can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, and cannot mate with other species. However, most of the so-called species (obviously all the extinct ones) have not been tested to see what they can or cannot mate with. In fact, not only are there known crosses between so-called species, but there are many instances of trans-generic mating, so the ‘kind’ may in some cases be as high as the family. Identifying the ‘kind’ with the genus is also consistent with Scripture, which spoke of kinds in a way that the Israelites could easily recognize without the need for tests of reproductive isolation.

For example, horses, zebras and donkeys are probably descended from an equine (horse-like) kind, since they can interbreed, although the offspring are sterile. Dogs, wolves, coyotes and jackals are probably from a canine (dog-like) kind. All different types of domestic cattle (which are clean animals) are descended from the Aurochs, so there were probably at most seven (or fourteen) domestic cattle aboard. The Aurochs itself may have been descended from a cattle kind including bisons and water buffaloes. We know that tigers and lions can produce hybrids called tigons and ligers, so it is likely that they are descended from the same original kind.

Woodmorappe totals about 8000 genera, including extinct genera, thus about 16,000 individual animals which had to be aboard. With extinct genera, there is a tendency among some paleontologists to give each of their new finds a new genus name. But this is arbitrary, so the number of extinct genera is probably highly overstated. Consider the sauropods, which were the largest dinosaurs—the group of huge plant-eaters like Brachiosaurus, Diplodocus, Apatosaurus, etc. There are 87 sauropod genera commonly cited, but only 12 are ‘firmly established’ and another 12 are considered ‘fairly well established’.

As you can see in my haste I misstated things. First, they argue that kinds can be equated to either genus or family, but also argue that the number of genera are inflated due to arbitrarily naming/classifying them.

Ultimately, the original kinds or what variation of them at that time were all that were taken on the Ark. The article cites John Woodmorappe's work who theorized the original kinds, or a variation of them, at that time would have been somewhere between 2000-8000 then speculates 16,000 individual animals would've been on the Ark.

I'm not sure why you expect Creationists to overwhelmlingly embrace secular science or visa versa. They take somethings that are known and apply them to the Biblical Narrative while formulating models to fit their theories.

As far as there being enough time, Dr. Robert Carter, a geneticists, has argued that genetics shows there has been enough time for variation. See: Adam, Eve, Noah, and Genetics. Then there's Mitochondria Eve, see here: Mitochondria Eve and Biblical Eve, and Creation Wiki: Responding to Talk Origins about Mitochondria Eve, and Creation Wiki: Mitochondria Eve.

More articles about Genetics and Enough Time, Genetic Diversity in Dogs (With discussion about diversity from the Ark), Genetics and Primal Couple, Post Flood Log Mats (A Migration Theory), Another Article on Migration (At the end they briefly discuss Marsupials), Biogeography, and Possible Human Migration Theory.

For Creationists, just like Evolutionists, there is one central belief then there are many theories about how that played out. As far as migration, there are a few theories linked above, a few about genetic diversity, a few about how the fossils got laid down, how the Flood had a hand in this and a few theories about the immediate post Flood world. There are a few theories on how the Flood got started aside from God doing it, but what He may have used in nature to get it done, etc. The point, Creationists don't just sit around and say "God did it" all day, they come up with theories and answers to questions just like secularists do. I'm not expecting you to agree with everything as I don't agree with everything out in secular theories, especially when it comes to deep time and evolution.
 
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Job 33:6

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There hasn't been enough time in a mere 3000 years to turn 8 thousand species into hundreds of thousands. This is just absurd and there is no evidence for it. Recent research suggests natural rates of speciation to occur within 100-200 thousand years in 90+ percent of animals. Here you are trying to take 8000 species, and youre trying to have them evolve into hundreds of thousands of species in far less than even 100,000 years, in a mere 3,000 years.

This is some sort of wild super evolution.
 
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BroRoyVa79

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There hasn't been enough time in a mere 3000 years to turn 8 thousand species into hundreds of thousands. This is just absurd and there is no evidence for it.

This is some sort of wild super evolution.

It might help a bit if you actually investigated the theories instead of just dismissing them based on uniformitarian and long time assumptions.

As I said, you are expecting answers based on how you already look at the world through evolution, uniformitarianism, and long ages.

It's absurd to expect Young Earth Creationism to fit in that narrative. Hence the very position, "Young Earth" or "Young Universe."

I often hear skeptics erroneously claim Creationists assert "God of the Gaps" but often all I hear from Old Earthers, both skeptics and the religious kind is "Time of the Gaps." "There's not enough time for this or this, so millions or billions of years had to take place."

I and many others disagree. As I said, I was not expecting you to agree, but to assert Creationists don't answer questions, come up with theories, etc. that fit a young view of the world shows you are misinformed about their position.
 
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Job 33:6

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It might help a bit if you actually investigated the theories instead of just dismissing them based on uniformitarian assumpations.

As I said, you are expecting answers based on how you already look at the world through evolution, uniformitarianism, and long ages.

It's absurd to expect Young Earth Creationism to fit in that narrative. Hence the very position, "Young Earth" or "Young Universe."

I often hear skeptics erroneously claim Creationists assert "God of the Gaps" but often all I hear from Old Earthers, both skeptics and the religious kind is "Time of the Gaps." "There's not enough time for this or this, so millions or billions of years had to take place."

I and many others disagree. As I said, I was not expecting you to agree, but assert Creationists don't answer questions, come up with theories, etc. that fit a young view of the world shows you are misinformed about their position.

These arent theories youre suggesting, if they were theories, you would actually have real research to support them. This is just some sort of bizarre pseudoscience, hence why i am disregarding it.
 
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Job 33:6

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If you disagree with me, then why dont you show me scientific research on rates of evolution that might transform 8000 species into 800,000 in 3000 years. Such research doesnt exist of course.

Or if we do a bit of division, you can show me how 100 species can form from 1 species in a single year.

And in reality, there are over 8 million species of animal on earth, so im really bending over backwards to make this easy for you.
 
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BroRoyVa79

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If you disagree with me, then why dont you show me scientific research on rates of evolution that might transform 8000 species into 800,000 in 3000 years. Such research doesnt exist of course.

I gave you several links to articles and a geneticist who argues that point with scientific research. Edited to add: Minus rates of evolution, I believe, it's been some time since I listened to his lectures, etc. Still, again, you are coming at this trying to foce one concept onto another. The two do not fit. Creationists believe in microevoloution, etc.

Edited to add: Google: Dr. Robert Carter and a combination of Adam & Eve, Noah, or Genetics.
 
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Job 33:6

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I gave you several links to articles and a geneticists who argues that point with scientific research.

I just adjusted my text and added

"Or if we do a bit of division, you can show me how 100 species can form from 1 species in a single year.

And in reality, there are over 8 million species of animal on earth, so im really bending over backwards to make this easy for you."


There is no such research that can even fathom such a thing as animals take longer than a single year to reproduce and longer than a single generation to speciate.

Your quote identifying alleged scientists is from "creation.com", i mean come on. This is just silly. You literally have to believe in animals giving birth to new species multiple perhaps hundreds of times in a single generation. Thats just crazy. And there is no such evidence for this, despite what you seem to think is evident on creation.com.
 
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BroRoyVa79

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These arent theories youre suggesting, if they were theories, you would actually have real research to support them. This is just some sort of bizarre pseudoscience, hence why i am disregarding it.

Do we have to get into the hijacking of academia and science by naturalism and atheism and how these scientists have to form their own research, peer reviewed journals, etc.? Surely, you're not asking me to submt articles written in secular science journals are you? Although a minority have managed to get some submitted before they're chastised. I won't even site the documentary about this practice. The point being, they do research, everyone from Young Earth to Intelligent Designers write, research, theorize, challenge secular views, some embrace them, etc.
 
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Job 33:6

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Do we have to get into the hijacking of academia and science by naturalism and atheism and how these scientists have to form their own research, peer reviewed journals, etc.? Surely, you're not asking me to submt articles written in secular science journals are you? Although a minority have managed to get some submitted before they're chastised. I won't even site the documentary about this practice. The point being, they do research, everyone from Young Earth to Intelligent Designers write, research, theorize, challenge secular views, some embrace them, etc.

Nobody is hijacking anything, youre just making a baseless claim without research to substantiate.
 
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