What is the Gospel?

[justbyfaith]

Out of context. I will prove it to you one by one with the references you offered.

Romans 4
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,

AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;

You are using Romans 4 to prove that salvation is not given in return for effort, but for no effort, that is, a free gift. Payment contrasted with gift.

But Paul is contrasting loyalty, faith, with circumcision, as a requirement to receive the blessing, justification, to be found righteous.

He was teaching that it was not necessary to become a Jew to receive God’s blessing.

See how easy it is to prove the meaning wrong? Make more effort not to make a serious mistake which will lead to gnashing of teeth later on.

Circumcision is of the heart; and it boils down to entire sanctification. Now in Romans 4:11 (in context of the scriptures in question, it teaches that righteousness will be imputed even to those who are not circumcised of heart (entirely sanctified). Sanctification doesn't save us from the penalty of sin, but it is something that makes our ministry effective (Philemon 1:6). And for that reason, I desire it, even though it doesn't save me. Because I have a genuine love in my heart toward people (because I am saved) and I want them to be saved and edified as believers. And if I am a hypocrite, I will not be able to do that very effectively.

 

[Bible2+]

Wordkeeper said in post #136:

[Re: Paul in Romans 4]

He was teaching that it was not necessary to become a Jew to receive God’s blessing.

He was teaching that works are not required for initial salvation (Romans 4:5). But he was not contradicting that they are required for ultimate salvation (James 2:24).

Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have been made spiritually-circumcised Jews by God if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask God which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #138:

[Re: Genesis 29:31]

Jacob didn't hate Leah. "Hated" is a hebraism for "loved less".

But God hated Esau unto destruction (Malachi 1:3), just as He hates all nonelect individuals unto destruction (Romans 9:11-22).

 

[Wordkeeper]

Circumcision is of the heart; and it boils down to entire sanctification. Now in Romans 4:11 (in context of the scriptures in question, it teaches that righteousness will be imputed even to those who are not circumcised of heart (entirely sanctified). Sanctification doesn't save us from the penalty of sin, but it is something that makes our ministry effective (Philemon 1:6). And for that reason, I desire it, even though it doesn't save me. Because I have a genuine love in my heart toward people (because I am saved) and I want them to be saved and edified as believers. And if I am a hypocrite, I will not be able to do that very effectively.

Okay, let´s look at the topic of justification, to be found righteous.

Consider a father and son having a relationship based on common interests, results, goals. The father has the resources to help the son reach those goals and he will dispense those resources , or withhold them, according to the way the son responds to situations, ie if his actions will help or not help the mission. When the son obeys, he is found righteous, is justified, by the father. Those actions which are righteous leads to justifiction, in turn leads to releasing of resources, blessings.

In Genesis 15:6, Abram believes Godś word, and this belief is considered, hasab, righteous.

In Romans 4:3, Paul uses the word logizomai, reckoned, credited.

In the Vulgate, it is translated as reputatum, has the actual worth of, credit of.

Erasmus changed this word to imputatum, borrow.

Now you decide: Was Abraham´s response actually righteous or was it a response which borrowed righteousness?

Quote
Erasmus’ Novum instrumentum omne of 1516 provided not merely a new Latin translation of the Greek text of the New Testament, but also extensive notes justifying departure from the Vulgate text, which often appeal to classical antecedents. Of particular interest are his alterations to Romans 4:3. Where the Vulgate read ‘Credidit Abraham Deo et reputatum est illi ad iustitiam’, Erasmus altered the translation to ‘Credidit aut Abraham Deo et imputatum est ei ad iustitiam.’

https://tikpdf.tips/iustitia-dei-a-history-of-the-christian-doctrine-of.html

 

[justbyfaith]

Righteousness was credited to Abraham's account because of his faith; and also, his faith was reckoned to be righteousness.

 

[Wordkeeper]

He was teaching that works are not required for initial salvation (Romans 4:5). But he was not contradicting that they are required for ultimate salvation (James 2:24).

Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have been made spiritually-circumcised Jews by God if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask God which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

*******

Wrong. He was teaching a person doesn´t have to become a Jew to be saved. The mention of circumcision in the text proves this.

But God hated Esau unto destruction (Malachi 1:3), just as He hates all nonelect individuals unto destruction (Romans 9:11-22).

Both the texts apply to Corporate Election not Individual Election, nations not persons. From one lump of clay, (all men , neither Jew nor Gentile, before either did good or bad) one formed into a vessel for dishonor (Israel, who protested, why are we then blamed?) and another into a vessel of honor (Body of Christ, identified by eating His flesh, drinking His blood, Abraham, Joshua, Caleb, all the heroes of faith of Hebrews 11).

 

[Wordkeeper]

Righteousness was credited to Abraham's account because of his faith; and also, his faith was reckoned to be righteousness.

His response was actually righteous, not needing to be borrowed, imputed. Blame Erasmus for the error.

 

[justbyfaith]

His response was actually righteous, not needing to be borrowed, imputed. Blame Erasmus for the error.

I'm of the strong opinion that God is both sovereign and loving and Omnipotent: and would not allow error to enter into the message of the Bible as we have it in the authorized version, because He is loving; and is able to keep error out because He is sovereign and Omnipotent.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Righteousness was credited to Abraham's account because of his faith; and also, his faith was reckoned to be righteousness.

So it´s not imputed. Abram worked. Did a righteous act.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'm of the strong opinion that God is both sovereign and loving and Omnipotent: and would not allow error to enter into the message of the Bible as we have it in the authorized version, because He is loving; and is able to keep error out because He is sovereign and Omnipotent.

The error is not in the Bible. It is in the denominations, led by ¨fathers¨. That´s why you shouldn´t call anybody ¨Father¨. Neither ¨Pope Francis¨ nor ¨Pastor Luther¨ .

The Reformers used Erasmus´ version, repeated his mistake.

They also followed Augustine, who made a mistake in Romans 5:12:

http://gentlewisdom.org/augustines-mistake-about-sin/

 

[justbyfaith]

So it´s not imputed. Abram worked. Did a righteous act.

Technically, I might even agree with you. Jesus said, This is the work of God, that you believe on the One whom He hath sent.

Nevertheless I would not say that Jesus is there teaching that faith is a work. I would say that He is teaching that if you insist on being saved by works, then to have simple faith alone in what He did for you is the only thing that will count.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Technically, I might even agree with you. Jesus said, This is the work of God, that you believe on the One whom He hath sent.

Nevertheless I would not say that Jesus is there teaching that faith is a work. I would say that He is teaching that if you insist on being saved by works, then to have simple faith alone in what He did for you is the only thing that will count.

Please read it as ¨This is the will, the desirable response that God wishes us to have, to believe, be loyal to, Jesus¨.

Just remember that Paul was washing feet, clarifying issues raised by the cutting off of Israel, leading to puzzlement of the Jew and the Gentile believers, with the former trying to support Judaising, supporting works of the law, and the latter trying to push out the Jews from the church, boasting of the superior performance (no one is righteous, not even Gentiles!) of Gentiles.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please read it as ¨This is the will, the desirable response that God wishes us to have, to believe, be loyal to, Jesus¨.

Just remember that Paul was washing feet, clarifying issues raised by the cutting off of Israel, leading to puzzlement of the Jew and the Gentile believers, with the former trying to support Judaising, supporting works of the law, and the latter trying to push out the Jews from the church, boasting of the superior performance (no one is righteous, not even Gentiles!) of Gentiles.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by that; but no; the Gentiles did not think that they had a superior performance (unless you can give me scripture to back up your statement). Paul himself was a Jew and a Pharisee.

 

[justbyfaith]

And no, I do not accept the paraphrases of amateur Bible translators. Jesus said, This is the work of God, that you believe on the One whom He has sent. There is no reason to change it unless you are trying to refute sound doctrine.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by that; but no; the Gentiles did not think that they had a superior performance (unless you can give me scripture to back up your statement). Paul himself was a Jew and a Pharisee.

Quote

All of the above explain why Paul wrote what he wrote to whom he wrote—except for chapters 9–11. Baur suggested that this was the heart of the epistle, while most today do not know what to do with it. Recently, Paul B. Fowler, formerly of Reformed Seminary, argued that “Paul’s primary purpose in writing Romans was to dispel anti-Semitism”5 He based his argument on (1) many internal clues (11:13ff., etc., where Gentile pride has cropped up; cf. the whole thrust of chs. 9–11);


https://bible.org/seriespage/6-romans-introduction-argument-and-outline

 

[Wordkeeper]

And no, I do not accept the paraphrases of amateur Bible translators. Jesus said, This is the work of God, that you believe on the One whom He has sent. There is no reason to change it unless you are trying to refute sound doctrine.

You don't understand idiomatic English?

John isn't saying God has caused believers to follow Jesus.

John 6
29Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent." English Standard Version

John 6
40For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day

 

[justbyfaith]

John isn't saying God has caused believers to follow Jesus.

Maybe he isn't, but both Ezekiel and Paul do say this in Ezekiel 36:25-27 and Philippians 2:13.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Epistles are for people who already know the Gospel in established Christian communities, so if the Epistles are not the Gospel then what is the Gospel? Should Matthew, Mark, Luke and John be used exclusively to tell the Gospel to non-believers?

Perhaps you could say we have theological license to use what we want to or it could be said that doctrinally meaty messages are irresponsible for non-believers as they are not ready. This begs the question what is the purpose of the Gospel? Should it "fix" ones theology or should it be more focused on introducing someone to Jesus?

I think John is probably the best place to start with nonbelievers. It shows that Jesus has been God since before creation and that He played a huge role in creation. It also confirms that Jesus is God and the Son of God who became man. The other gospels don’t start with these fundamental teachings like John does.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Maybe he isn't, but both Ezekiel and Paul do say this in Ezekiel 36:25-27 and Philippians 2:13.

Yes but not all were clean even though they drank of the same Spirit from the same Rock.

John 13
11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Maybe he isn't, but both Ezekiel and Paul do say this in Ezekiel 36:25-27 and Philippians 2:13.

And I'm sorry, I misunderstood your point, that God desired people to believe in Jesus.

Belief is mistranslated today as agreed with, mentally assented with, the teaching that Jesus is the Messiah.

In the ancient near east, ANE, believing in a Patron meant following him, being loyal to him, doing things that would please him, for which he would be gracious...

 

[Wordkeeper]

You obviously have an agenda that includes subverting the word of God.

I see you went back and edited your post. Sneaky.

That's funny. Facts don't change. You can still check if Erasmus made a mistake. His translation hasn't been lost. The original Greek hasn't been lost. You decide if the work of men has gone wrong.