Faith in Faith or Faith in Christ?

[PastorJoey]

I think many do not receive healing because their faith is in their faith and not in Christ the healer. All who came to Jesus for healing had faith in him. The thought never occurred to them that faith was a condition they must meet and keep before Christ would heal them. They believed Jesus would heal them so they came to him.

And it is no different today, we ask for healing and if God grants faith in the matter, he granted the healing, we know healing is on the way. But it is obvious God would not grant faith and heal the many gluttonous and drunken Corinthians who became sick and died when they failed to discern Christ’s body in their communion service. The healing in this case was in repentance. And so it is with many other sins we must first repent of.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that moves us in the direction God would have us to go. If you have faith in God and tell a mountain to move, and doubt not, it will happen. Because faith tells you God is in on it, doing the moving. But if you have faith in your faith, as a condition you must meet, your faith is in yourself and it will not move a grain of sand, let alone a mountain.

Years ago many deaths happened in a WOF Church I attended. And looking back I can see what went wrong. I share some of my story in the Testimonies section in a brief article I call "Escape From a Death Cult".

Do I believe in divine healing? Yes, I've enjoyed divine health since the 1980s.

The actual context of having “faith in your faith”, the first I heard it was from Kenyon, and the context was believing that God hears your own prayers as well as He will hear the prayers of others for you, that you do not need to depend on others praying for you, thus the phrase “faith in your faith”. Puts it in a better context right? Others have caught onto that phrase and misinterpreted it, and heresy hunter have twisted it.

 

[Dave L]

The actual context of having “faith in your faith”, the first I heard it was from Kenyon, and the context was believing that God hears your own prayers as well as He will hear the prayers of others for you, that you do not need to depend on others praying for you, thus the phrase “faith in your faith”. Puts it in a better context right? Others have caught onto that phrase and misinterpreted it, and heresy hunter have twisted it.

If we view faith as a condition for salvation or healing, we will not trust in Christ. We will trust in our faith as the condition we met to motivate God to save or heal us.

But biblical faith looks directly to Christ as a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is either present or not present according to the Spirit's provision. As Hebrews 11:1 says, faith is the hypostasis of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It makes us believe we have the provision we ask for before we see it in real time.

 

[now faith]

If we view faith as a condition for salvation or healing, we will not trust in Christ. We will trust in our faith as the condition we met to motivate God to save or heal us.

But biblical faith looks directly to Christ as a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is either present or not present according to the Spirit's provision. As Hebrews 11:1 says, faith is the hypostasis of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It makes us believe we have the provision we ask for before we see it in real time.

I hate to disagree but Hebrews 11 vs 1 does not use the term Hypostasis in the description of faith.
Hypostasis has multiple meanings depending on the premises of the text.
It can be used in metaphysical terms as well as plural.
It does not equate to substance .

 

[Dave L]

I hate to disagree but Hebrews 11 vs 1 does not use the term Hypostasis in the description of faith.
Hypostasis has multiple meanings depending on the premises of the text.
It can be used in metaphysical terms as well as plural.
It does not equate to substance .

“Now faith is the substance [ὑπόστασις; hupŏstasis] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person [ὑπόστασις; hupŏstasis], and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” (Hebrews 1:3)

5287. ὑπόστασις hupŏstasis, hoop-os´-tas-is; from a comp. of 5259 and 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (fig.) concr. essence, or abstr. assurance (obj. or subj.):—confidence, confident, person, substance.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 74).

 

[hhodgson]

The actual context of having “faith in your faith”, the first I heard it was from Kenyon, and the context was believing that God hears your own prayers as well as He will hear the prayers of others for you, that you do not need to depend on others praying for you, thus the phrase “faith in your faith”. Puts it in a better context right? Others have caught onto that phrase and misinterpreted it, and heresy hunter have twisted it.

If I may PastorJoey... (Welcome back). For teaching purposes, I would like to enhance what you posted about the critics in this area of "faith in your faith" in their misinterpreting the context of what (Kenyon, Hagin, Capps), and others are really saying in that phrase.

Critics say that WOF people teach that we should have faith in our faith rather than faith in God. This is total nonsense! We, (WOF) teach that the (object) of our faith is the Word of God (Romans 10:14-17). The Word of God is the revealed will of God. Kenneth Hagin has stated in numerable times that Biblical faith is based on what God said in His Word. Hagin quoted this, "Why don't people have faith in their faith?" He continues; "I know from experience that a lot of people have (faith in my faith) and the faith of others, but they do not have confidence in their (own) faith."

For some reason or other, they do not (believe) in themselves. They do not (believe) in what Christ has worked out for them. They do not (believe) what and who they are in Christ Jesus. They carry around the feeling that they are not good enough. They feel that their faith is not strong enough. They're acquainted with all of their own failings and weaknesses, and they readily accept every condemnation they hear preached to them from the pulpit."

What Hagin is talking about is that many Christians tend to look to others (because) they don't believe that their faith will work. He was encouraging them to have "confidence" that their faith would work for them as well as his would. "God has given to each one "the" measure of faith" (Romans 12:3). But it's up to us to develop our faith. Hagin was simply exhorting Christians to believe (their faith would work for them). Having faith in YOUR faith as opposed to (somebody else's faith). We know that by the grace of God, faith comes to us by hearing, and hearing of His Word. "It's all about (knowing) and having confidence in your faith that God will work through you.

Critics will take this statement and others out of context and completely misrepresent what these teachers were actually talking about. I have to admit that Hagin and the other teachers could have explained it better by just using, "having confidence in your faith" in lieu of "having faith in your faith." This was just another attempt of the WOF critics to link word of faith theology to new age thinking or metaphysics.

I hope these comments help. Thanks PastorJoey.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Been WoF since they called it the Faith Movement. since around 1973. 45 years.
Not sure who teaches "faith in your faith."
If they died because of this misguided teaching... I am sorry, but I am not surprised.
I stopped trying to defend other people's misconceptions about what I believe.

 

[Dave L]

Been WoF since they called it the Faith Movement. since around 1973. 45 years.
Not sure who teaches "faith in your faith."
If they died because of this misguided teaching... I am sorry, but I am not surprised.
I stopped trying to defend other people's misconceptions about what I believe.

If faith is a condition we must meet in order to receive from God, our faith will be in our faith and not directly in him.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If faith is a condition we must meet in order to receive from God, our faith will be in our faith and not directly in him.

But I do not know anybody who says that...

 

[Dave L]

But I do not know anybody who says that...

The will never say this. But it is what they do whenever faith is a condition for anything. They trust their faith to move God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The will never say this. But it is what they do whenever faith is a condition for anything. They trust their faith to move God.

Well if the never say it, and they do not teach it, and you cannot prove it... then how can you determine and prove it? Aren't you just making a accusation based on your own bias?
I could just as easily point at you and say:
"If love is a condition we must meet in order to be acceptable to God, our faith will be in our love and not directly in him."
Can you prove you do not do this?
Textbook definition of a witch hunt.

 

[Dave L]

Well if the never say it, and they do not teach it, and you cannot prove it... then how can you determine and prove it? Aren't you just making a accusation based on your own bias?
I could just as easily point at you and say:
"If love is a condition we must meet in order to be acceptable to God, our faith will be in our love and not directly in him."
Can you prove you do not do this?
Textbook definition of a witch hunt.

If salvation or healing is based on meeting conditions, in this case faith, then you have faith in your meeting the condition instead of faith in God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If salvation or healing is based on meeting conditions, in this case faith, then you have faith in your meeting the condition instead of faith in God.

I know nobody who does this. Who do you hear saying "I am believing I am saved, therefore I am?"
Imaginary accusations.

 

[Dave L]

I know nobody who does this. Who do you hear saying "I am believing I am saved, therefore I am?"
Imaginary accusations.

If faith is a condition for salvation, your faith is in yourself having faith and not in God.

 

[PastorJoey]

The will never say this. But it is what they do whenever faith is a condition for anything. They trust their faith to move God.

Dave, Faith in Christ, in His Word, is the condition for receiving from God. I didn’t say it the Word said it. No faith, no rewards. Hebrews 11:6.

I’m not “trusting in my faith to move God”, (In over 25 years I have never heard any prominent WOF teacher say anything remotely like that), it’s trusting that God will do what He says and then acting like the Bible is true. It’s quite simple really. It’s that attitude, humility that opens our heart up to God and receives what He has promised. He is not withholding His hand until He sees faith. No, His arm is outstretched, but we must receive. Faith is the hand that receives from God.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, Faith in Christ, in His Word is the condition for receiving from God. I didn’t say it the Word said it. No faith, no rewards. Hebrews 11:6

If it is a condition, it is not grace. And your faith is in your faith to move God. It doesn't work this way.

 

[PastorJoey]

If it is a condition, it is not grace. And your faith is in your faith to move God. It doesn't work this way.

Sorry Dave, you replied before I could get my additions in. .... Do you not see Hebrews 11:6 as faith being a condition? Too bad you weren’t there to tell the writer of Hebrews that his faith was in his faith and not on God. Faith is the condition for accessing Grace. Romans 5:2

 

[Simon the Tanner]

It's Pharisee doubletalk to say that believing God's Word is works oriented rather than grace. Biblical faith is by definition not relying on our works but trusting in God's provision revealed in His Word. These critics are getting more and more absurd with each passing day.

 

[Dave L]

Sorry Dave, you replied before I could get my additions in. .... Do you not see Hebrews 11:6 as faith being a condition? Too bad you weren’t there to tell the writer of Hebrews that his faith was in his faith and not on God. Faith is the condition for accessing Grace. Romans 5:2

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is a gift of grace, not a mindset (condition) God will honor.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is a gift of grace, not a mindset (condition) God will honor.

One of my issues is that the fruit are the product of the reborn spirit, that is the Spirit of Christ in us, and not the Holy Spirit. The capitalization of the word spirit in Galatians is an error.

 

[Dave L]

One of my issues is that the fruit are the product of the reborn spirit, that is the Spirit of Christ in us, and not the Holy Spirit. The capitalization of the word spirit in Galatians is an error.

So you rob God of his glory and apply it to yourself......