ONE VERSE TOTALLY DESTROYS FREE WILL !

[aiki]

www.soteriology101.com

 

[John tower]

Whats that have to do with free will ?

All these verses say you do not have a free will to choose Christ , or will to do anything at all : it is all the will of God in his predestined : do not exalt man with power he does not have

 

[John tower]

If it was this obvious, determinism would have been taught by the early Church. Don't you think that the apostles and their disciples, and those within the first few hundred years of the Church would have been aware that God was forcing their actions?

If we're not in control of our will, we can merit neither heaven nor hell.

That's the whole point : we merit nothing because we do nothing : Phil 2(13): Stop trying to exalt man with power he does not have

 

[John tower]

Paul didn't divide his letters (epistles --Romans, Ephesians and such) into verses, and didn't expect anyone to select out pieces (verses) away from the full letters.

Verses were added to Bibles starting in 1551 and after.

To understand deeper questions addressed at points in epistles like Romans and Ephesians, we need to hear the same gospel accounts believers were hearing then also. We need to read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

And you find out as you read more that to understand the scriptures deeper things, we have to read fully through entire books.

Paul expects that hearers would hear all of the letter he wrote through to the end, taking time to understand all you hear/read. Then these deeper questions become so much clearer.

As we read, knowing these words are from God, we should not think to use them for our theories.

Instead, we should fall silent in our minds and listen to him, expecting to be the one learning, instead of the one teaching.

That means forgetting the ideas/doctrines, and instead truly listening, from the beginning, with the aim not being a doctrine, but instead to hear and learn.

He says we have to be as a child to go to heaven : The fact that God is in total control and there us only his will is so simple : do not exalt man with power he does not have : Jer 10(23), Rom 13(1)

 

[John tower]

I do not necessarily debate that, but the title of this thread is "One verse totally destroys free will". Why stop at one verse? One verse isn't theology and should not be used to prove or disprove any other theology.

I was showing the power of God's word : there is enough power in that one verse to totally destroy the false doctrine of man's own free will . like I said I could quote hundreds if verses but God's word is so powerful one is quite sufficient .

 

[Loren T.]

That's the whole point : we merit nothing because we do nothing : Phil 2(13): Stop trying to exalt man with power he does not have

If we can do nothing of ourselves, we can not sin. I suspect you have not really thought this through. It would mean that God is the only real sinner and we just do what he causes us to do. So, if I murder my neighbor and steal his stuff, I'm not to blame, God is.
If Adam eats from a forbidden tree, Adam is not to blame, because he has no will of his own. I wonder why God would get so angry at sins that he caused, that he would say things like: "I'm sorry I ever created man." Wouldn't that actually be God being angry at his own actions? Is your god schizophrenic?

 

[Tomb523]

One single verse totally destroys free will , and that verse is Ephesians 1(11): In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who works ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF " HIS OWN WILL "
already after his will : IMPOSSIBLE : CASE CLOSED : END OF STORY !!!

Not quite! God created man and He knows the heart of men. Some will fear and love Him while others will not based on their free will. It is mankind that is predestined, not individuals. God will use both those who love Him and those who hate Him to bring about His will. If He tries to use you for something and you refuse, He will find someone else and use your actions for another part of His plan.

 

[John tower]

The notion that we have no free will seems deeply counterintuitive, and it clearly undermines other Biblical concepts like justice, moral responsibility, and accountability. After all, what sense can be made of the admonition to “choose this day whom ye shall follow” if we don’t have free will.

To say that we are “pre-destined”, to me at least, can legitimately be read as saying something that does indeed accomodate free will.

I politely suggest that underneath the OP is an extremely awkward hermeneutic that takes individual concepts, such as pre-destination, and robs them of their essential fluidity- in English at least, many concepts are rather elastic and should not be interpreted in an overly restrictive sense.

What is wrong with God being in total control ? Do you know someone else who could do a better job : certainly not man : Heb 12(2), Col 1(17), Rom 9(11-23)

 

[Kersh]

trying

Presumably so that we will choose to stop believing in free will.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You posted this and other things because you chose to.

That's the whole point : we merit nothing because we do nothing : Phil 2(13): Stop trying to exalt man with power he does not have

 

[2tim_215]

That whole predestination philosophy is pretty messed up. If I am either predestined for heaven or hell no matter what I do, then I should just go out and do what my flesh pleases since it won't matter according to that philosophy. Yet we all know that's not true. O believe that \Satan will use that type of thinking against us since he knows we are all sinners to perhaps turn us against God and get us to do thing that our consciences would keep us from doing.

 

[John tower]

Not quite! God created man and He knows the heart of men. Some will fear and love Him while others will not based on their free will. It is mankind that is predestined, not individuals. God will use both those who love Him and those who hate Him to bring about His will. If He tries to use you for something and you refuse, He will find someone else and use your actions for another part of His plan.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1928750323842313/permalink/1946663335384345/

 

[John tower]

If we can do nothing of ourselves, we can not sin. I suspect you have not really thought this through. It would mean that God is the only real sinner and we just do what he causes us to do. So, if I murder my neighbor and steal his stuff, I'm not to blame, God is.
If Adam eats from a forbidden tree, Adam is not to blame, because he has no will of his own. I wonder why God would get so angry at sins that he caused, that he would say things like: "I'm sorry I ever created man." Wouldn't that actually be God being angry at his own actions? Is your god schizophrenic?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1928750323842313/permalink/1946663335384345/

 

[Ancient of Days]

One single verse totally destroys free will , and that verse is Ephesians 1(11): In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who works ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF " HIS OWN WILL "
If he works ALL THINGS AFTER HIS OWN WILL : it is impossible for us to have our own will , because ALL THINGS are already after his will : how can we have our iwn free will if all things are already after his will : IMPOSSIBLE : CASE CLOSED : END OF STORY !!!

Sounds like you came to your conclusion through, YOUR OWN FREE WILL....

 

[John tower]

Are you familiar with corporate election?

Also, do you believe God "works" evil?
" The term “all things” (panta) is not necessarily absolute and must be understood within the limitations imposed by the context. This is seen quite clearly in 1 Corinthians 12:6, which says that God is the one “who works all things [panta] in all persons.” The language is exactly parallel to that of Ephesians 1:11; even the verb is the same [energeo]. Yet the context of 1 Corinthians 12 clearly limits “all things” to spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit, and verse 11 says so specifically: “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” In a similar way, the context of Ephesians 1:11 does not allow us to think of the “all things” in an absolutely inclusive sense, but shows us the specific focus of God’s purpose which is in view here."
http://evangelicalarminians.org/does-ephesians-1-1-11-support-calvinism/

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[John tower]

We need to fit all the verses together and get the intended meaning.

..."The central idea in the election of the church may be seen from Ephesians 1:4":[3] "For he [God] chose us [the Church] in him [Christ], before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." William Klein agrees, but would add that:

"Here [in Ephesians 1:3-4] Paul states that God chose Christians in Christ before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. The "chosen ones" designate the corporate [all of us together] group to whom Paul writes with himself (and presumably all Christians) included: God chose us. The focus is not on the selection of individuals, but the group of those chosen. As Westcott notes, "He chose us (i.e. Christians as a body, v. 4) for Himself out of the world." Paul specifies the timing of this choice—it was pretemporal, before the world was created. God made the choice "in him" (that is, "in Christ"). In other words, Christ is the principal elected one,[4] and God has chosen a corporate body to be included in him."

Election is Christocentric
Election is first and foremost centered in Christ: "He chose us in him" (Ephesians 1:4a).[6] Christ himself is the elect of God.[7] Regarding Christ, God states, "Here is my servant whom I have chosen" (Matthew 12:18; cf. Isaiah 42:1, 6).[8] God audibly declared to Christ's disciples, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!" (Luke 9:35)[9] The Gospel writer John says, "I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One" (John 1:34, Today's New International Version).[10]The apostle Peter refers to Christ as "the Living Stone . . . chosen by God and precious to Him" (1 Peter 2:4; cf. v. 6).[11]Therefore, Christ, as the elect of God, is the foundation of our election.[12] Through union with Christ believers become members of the elect (Ephesians 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13).[13] No one is among the elect unless they are in a living faith union with Christ.[14]

Election is primarily corporate
New Testament theologian Ben Witherington remarks that apart from the word election (eklektos) occasionally being used to apply to the king in the Old Testament, election in the Old Testament is predominantly applied corporately to a people, not to individuals. The Hebrew word for "elect" (bahir) is normally used in the plural, and thus refers collectively of Israel. While there are times in Scripture where God chooses individuals for a specific historical task or purpose (e.g. Cyrus in Isaiah 45:1), these are passages that have nothing to do with God deciding who will be saved, thus, they are of no relevance to this topic. The corporate concept of election in the Old Testament is the context which one must view the references to election in the New Testament.[15]

Professor William Klein concluded that the New Testament writers "address salvific election in primarily, if not exclusively, corporate terms. In other words, God has chosen an elect body to save."[16] The elect are identified corporately as: "the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12; cf. 1:22-23; 2:16; 3:6; 5:23, 30), "members of God's household" (Ephesians 2:19),[17] "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession" (1 Peter 2:9; cf. 2:10).[18] Thus, election is primarily corporate and only embraces individuals (secondarily) who identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the church—God's new covenant community.[19]

New Testament scholar Brian Abasciano says that the Bible's teaching regarding "corporate election unto salvation is even more nuanced than simply saying that the group is elected primarily and the individual secondarily."[20]

More precisely, it refers to the election of a group as a consequence of the choice of an individual who represents the group, the corporate head and representative. That is, the group is elected as a consequence of its identification with this corporate representative. The same may be said of individuals. They are chosen as a consequence of their identification with the people, and more fundamentally, with the individual corporate head. Thus,

God chose the people of Israel in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel (Deuteronomy 4:37; 7:6-8). That is, by choosing Jacob/Israel, the corporate/covenant representative, God also chose his descendants as his covenant people. . . . The covenant representative on the one hand and the people/nation of Israel on the other hand are the focus of the divine covenantal election, and individuals are elect only as members of the elect people. Moreover, in principle, foreign individuals who were not originally members of the elect people could join the chosen people and become part of the elect, demonstrating again that the locus of election was the covenant community and that individuals found their election through membership in the elect people.
This notion of election is rooted in the Old Testament concept of corporate solidarity or representation, which views the individual as representing the community and identified with it and vice versa.[21]

Election has an eternal purpose
God has chosen a people so that they "may declare the praises of him" who called them out of darkness and into his wonderful light (1 Peter 2:9). Furthermore, God has purposed in Christ that His people will "be holy and blameless before Him" (Ephesians 1:4).[22] This purpose is repeatedly emphasized by Paul in Ephesians (see 2:21; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-32; 5:1-18; cf. 1 Peter 1:2, 14-16).[14] The fulfillment of this purpose for the church corporately is certain (Ephesians 5:27).[23]But the fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional upon remaining in the Christian faith (Colossians 1:22-23).[23]

Election is offered to all people
Abasciano believes that one of the theological advantages of corporate election is how it beautifully coincides with the Bible's teaching that God loves everyone, calls everyone to trust in him and be saved, and genuinely desires all to come into a saving relationship with him (e.g., Luke 19:10; John 3:16; Acts 17:30-31; 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9).[24] However, only those persons who repent of their sin and place their faith in Christ enter into a saving relationship with God and are "incorporated into Christ's elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect."[13]
--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_election

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[John tower]

Predestined means being in the image of God. Adam was made in the image of God, but that image was marred with sin. Christ restores the image of God and all are called to come to Christ to be what we all were predestined to be.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1928750323842313/permalink/1946663335384345/

 

[Ancient of Days]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1928750323842313/permalink/1946663335384345/

Maybe you can re post that facebook link again since we didn't quite get it the first ten times...

 

[John tower]

wrong.

We are ALL predestined to be saved that is, unless we resist God’s drawing love. God does not want ... it is not his will that anyone perish. His will is that everyone be saved .... but of course not everyone will be saved.

We have CHOICE to receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior or refuse Him.

God in heaven knows what a person will choose but does not control the choice of any person. This is His foreknowledge.

It is His will that no one perish (eternal death) but that does not at all mean at all that he controls their choice. God does not "FORCE" anything on anyone.

John 3:16

Case OPen .... not the end of the story

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[John tower]

He's talking about the destiny of those who have already come to faith and are thus saved. "Predestined" there is equivalent to the doctrine of eternal security.

However, every command and exhortation implies free will. For example:

With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Acts 2:40

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