The State of the Dead

[Saint Steven]

The Bible describes heaven in Revelation. It describes people wearing white robes (can't do that without some type of body) People falling on their faces worshipping God, (can't do that without some type of body), People waving Olive Branches and praising God (so apparently vocal chords exist in heaven)

There is mention of Glorified bodies in heaven, so apparently they are perfected in some way.. I'm good with that.

Don't know why it's a question honest.

We can agree on that much.

Oops, sorry. I mistook you for another poster. But still agree.

 

[Saint Steven]

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Well, look at what that says. "... destroy both soul and body in hell." ???

How is it that "both soul and body" can be destroyed in hell? How does the body get there?

Psalm 16:10
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay.

Isaiah 14:9
The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations.

 

[Albion]

I think I'd rather have a material body, at least a body you could see. I can't imagine living in a world where we are all invisible. Wouldn't it be lonely?

Christ was raised with a glorified body and so shall we be raised.

Note that, at first, no one who encountered him thought he was anything but another human in the usual human body.

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ was raised with a glorified body and so shall we be raised.

Note that, at first, no one who encountered him thought he was anything but another human in the usual human body.

That's a great point. Reminds me of this. (the Road to Emmaus)

Luke 24:13-16
Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem.
14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened.
15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them;
16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The Bible describes heaven in Revelation. It describes people wearing white robes (can't do that without some type of body) People falling on their faces worshipping God, (can't do that without some type of body), People waving Olive Branches and praising God (so apparently vocal chords exist in heaven)

There is mention of Glorified bodies in heaven, so apparently they are perfected in some way.. I'm good with that.

Don't know why it's a question honest.

There are some very wonderful descriptions of heaven in Revelation. And the Lamb is the light of it, in glory.

 

[faroukfarouk]

That's a great point. Reminds me of this. (the Road to Emmaus)

Luke 24:13-16
Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem.
14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened.
15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them;
16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

I love that passage; one moment the two on the road felt it was late and they seemed tired and sad; then when their eyes were opened they immediately at the same hour went back to Jerusalem, full of zeal and joy.

 

[The Times]

Well, look at what that says. "... destroy both soul and body in hell." ???

Who can destroy both soul and body in hell?

God.

The antecedent to which realm, the earthly dirt body is destroyed, is....

That those in the natural material realm CANNOT destroy the soul. Jesus makes that distinction, so as to highlight that the soul is accessible only to God, within his soul repository (Book of Life), just like a user account is within the system registry of the system administrator.

An anology is, that other user accounts (soul beings) cannot within the natural realm have administrator access to delete other user accounts, where each individual user is depicted as an IP address within the earthly realm WAN (wide area network), linking all hardware/firmware (body/brain) together, within this AI material universe simulated reality.

God can revoke a user account (soul) from acccessing his WAN (earthly material reality), therefore rendering the user account hell bound to the ether status, the user registry (soul repository) of the system administrator, where by default, the hardware/firmware (body/brain) is destroyed within the material reality, but that the soul is then relegated to the user account registry, until the system administrator decides to permanently wipe it out (jott it out) from his registry (book of life) and thereby as an anology condemn it to the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.

God is not actually destroying a material earthly body in Hell, but is destroying the soul in the Lake of Fire (metaphor) and this indirectly credits the body as well going there by the fact the soul access to the material realm has been revoked, pending final execution on death row, the second death.

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them.

1st death is biological death, severing of the user account from the hardware/firmware.

2nd death is soul death, jotting out or wiping the user account from the soul registry (Book of Life) of the Creation/System Administrator who is God.

How is it that "both soul and body" can be destroyed in hell? How does the body get there?

As explained, the first tent, that is earthly body dies and returns to the dust where it came from, it doesn't materially go to an immaterial place called Hell. The detailed explanation is given above.

because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay.

It is merely using a hyperbole of implying that if the material body, the first tent dies, then don't file me and forget about me in your user registry (soul repository), because I desire to be clothed. Again this phrase is pointing to the resurrection of the user account being upgraded to the second tent, the last Adam, within the second earth and second Heaven context. It just implies that God will not let us be naked souls within his soul repository, but will cloth us and upgrade our being to a higher realm of many rooms, that Jesus promised that he has prepared for us.

Apostle John in 1 John 3:2 said we don't know what that second tent will be. Paul alludes to it being a celestial body, for for the heavens, like the Lord from Heaven. We shall see him as he is in his Heavenly resurrected ten as our last Adam, so too will we be like him, what ever that second tent entails. It definitely is not the dirt body, because Paul states that the first tent must dissolve and something else must be raised to cloth the soul (user account, within the soul repository of God.

The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations.

Satan is depicted as finally joining those souls of the past kings and leaders he wielded, who are on second death row in the Lake of Fire, when he too joins them, when the Book of Condemned is opened at the Judgement of the Dead, the second death of those users accounts, inclusive of Satan who will permanently be erased from God's soul repository. It makes them rise from their thrones is a hyperbole as to say "what the heck", the same has become of you Satan.

 

[Saint Steven]

Who can destroy both soul and body in hell?

God.

The antecedent to which realm, the earthly dirt body is destroyed, is....

That those in the natural material realm CANNOT destroy the soul. Jesus makes that distinction, so as to highlight that the soul is accessible only to God, within his soul repository (Book of Life), just like a user account is within the system registry of the system administrator.

An anology is, that other user accounts (soul beings) cannot within the natural realm have administrator access to delete other user accounts, where each individual user is depicted as an IP address within the earthly realm WAN (wide area network), linking all hardware/firmware (body/brain) together, within this AI material universe simulated reality.

God can revoke a user account (soul) from acccessing his WAN (earthly material reality), therefore rendering the user account hell bound to the ether status, the user registry (soul repository) of the system administrator, where by default, the hardware/firmware (body/brain) is destroyed within the material reality, but that the soul is then relegated to the user account registry, until the system administrator decides to permanently wipe it out (jott it out) from his registry (book of life) and thereby as an anology condemn it to the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.

God is not actually destroying a material earthly body in Hell, but is destroying the soul in the Lake of Fire (metaphor) and this indirectly credits the body as well going there by the fact the soul access to the material realm has been revoked, pending final execution on death row, the second death.

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them.

1st death is biological death, severing of the user account from the hardware/firmware.

2nd death is soul death, jotting out or wiping the user account from the soul registry (Book of Life) of the Creation/System Administrator who is God.



As explained, the first tent, that is earthly body dies and returns to the dust where it came from, it doesn't materially go to an immaterial place called Hell. The detailed explanation is given above.



It is merely using a hyperbole of implying that if the material body, the first tent dies, then don't file me and forget about me in your user registry (soul repository), because I desire to be clothed. Again this phrase is pointing to the resurrection of the user account being upgraded to the second tent, the last Adam, within the second earth and second Heaven context. It just implies that God will not let us be naked souls within his soul repository, but will cloth us and upgrade our being to a higher realm of many rooms, that Jesus promised that he has prepared for us.

Apostle John in 1 John 3:2 said we don't know what that second tent will be. Paul alludes to it being a celestial body, for for the heavens, like the Lord from Heaven. We shall see him as he is in his Heavenly resurrected ten as our last Adam, so too will we be like him, what ever that second tent entails. It definitely is not the dirt body, because Paul states that the first tent must dissolve and something else must be raised to cloth the soul (user account, within the soul repository of God.



Satan is depicted as finally joining those souls of the past kings and leaders he wielded, who are on second death row in the Lake of Fire, when he too joins them, when the Book of Condemned is opened at the Judgement of the Dead, the second death of those users accounts, inclusive of Satan who will permanently be erased from God's soul repository. It makes them rise from their thrones is a hyperbole as to say "what the heck", the same has become of you Satan.

That doesn't explain how the body is destroyed in hell. And we have another issue. The punishment of hell is eternal.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

I love that passage; one moment the two on the road felt it was late and they seemed tired and sad; then when their eyes were opened they immediately at the same hour went back to Jerusalem, full of zeal and joy.

Here's something else about that story that is more on topic. Jesus appeared to the Apostles when the two from Emmaus returned to Jerusalem. Notice what it says about his resurrected body. It still bears the scars.

Luke 24:36-40
While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.

 

[The Times]

That doesn't explain how the body is destroyed in hell.

Indirectly, by virtue of soul separating from the dirt body at biological death. The dirt body returns back to the dust of the earth.

The punishment of hell is eternal.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Everlasting punishment lasting aiónios, meaning agelong, that is new covenant age long until The Righteous Judge Jesus Christ returns, on that Day of his Appearing, to Judge the Living and the Dead.

Is Life forever with Jesus, after the resurrection?

Absolutely!

Is eternal punishment and deprivation of life forever?

I will answer this below.....

They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Hell is NOT the Lake of Fire (metaphor), that is the second death. Hell is not second death, because....

There is closure to those who were not found in the book of life. That is why two books are unsealed at the Final Judgment of the Dead and the final destiny of all souls is determined and ratified at this point.

the books were opened: and another book was opened,which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Two books are to be finalised and brought to closure (unsealed), one book is the promise of eternal life to be resurrected in our glorified heavenly angelic bodies and to be reunited with Jesus and to see him as he is in his glorified body, as the Lord of Heaven (1 John 3:2). The other book is the book of the condemned and already biologically dead (1st death), who are on death row, that is they will face the second death, that being the death of the soul. This is where God at this point erases Satan and erases the condemned from his creation system registry and therefore they cease to exist.

death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

Death refers to 1st death, the death of the dirt body and the dead in hell, refers to the spiritually separated from God, punished in outer darkness of hell, as souls that have no rest day or night.

and they were judged every man according to their works.

The judgement is the final verdict for the destiny of their souls. All have tasted biological death (1st death). Now the Great White Throne Judgement executes the verdict according to which book they are written in.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Notice that biological death, that is the 1st death cannot continue to happen at this point, as all of humanity have biologically died and no one remains alive in the dirt body. Hell also cannot continue past the White Throne Judgement as it too must end.

The final enemy death, whether it be biological death or spiritual death, which is separation from God in outer darkness of Hell must be destroyed and cease, that is according to the declaration "No more death". (1 Corinthians 15:26)

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

With the passing of the first earth and the first heavens (plural), signals the end and closure of the old order of things.

It would be pure blasphemy to think that biological death and Hell continue after the White Throne Judgement within the new earth and the new heaven (singular).

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, the soul that was not resurrected to continue in the new order of things, at the White Throne Judgement, in the new earth and the new heaven, CANNOT continue serving in death, as the final enemy had to have been destroyed/annihilated.

limné: a lake of uncertain origin, because it is erased from the creation of God.

So that God's fire renders souls, that are not written in the book of life, to be destined to an uncertain origin, that is oblivion, meaning blackness, complete and utter eraser from God's soul repository. The deletion of the soul, is the second death. The book of the condemned are souls awaiting deletion, the killing of the soul (user account deletion) by God (Creation system administrator).

All eyes will see Jesus on the White Throne Judgement as the Righteous Judge, All will kneel before him and All are destined to biologically die once, then to face his Judgement in the Final Judgment of the Dead at his Appearing (2 Timothy 4:8).

 

[BobRyan]

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

1 Peter 1:13 the resurrection that takes place at the 2nd coming "at the revelation of Jesus Christ" -- is the entire focus of the NT church

 

[Sorn]

1 Peter 1:13 the resurrection that takes place at the 2nd coming "at the revelation of Jesus Christ" -- is the entire focus of the NT church

That may be but the OP was effectively asking why that was the case, why the need for a resurrection?
Or put another way, If we are souls in heaven after our death (if saved) then what is lacking that a resurrection is needed?.

 

[Saint Steven]

Indirectly, by virtue of soul separating from the dirt body at biological death. The dirt body returns back to the dust of the earth.

But the scripture indicates directly, not indirectly.
Or, there is a spiritual body that is perpetually "destroyed". (eternal punishment)

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
Everlasting punishment lasting aiónios, meaning agelong, that is new covenant age long until The Righteous Judge Jesus Christ returns, on that Day of his Appearing, to Judge the Living and the Dead.

Is Life forever with Jesus, after the resurrection?

Absolutely!

Is eternal punishment and deprivation of life forever?

I will answer this below.....

Hell is NOT the Lake of Fire (metaphor), that is the second death. Hell is not second death, because....

There is closure to those who were not found in the book of life. That is why two books are unsealed at the Final Judgment of the Dead and the final destiny of all souls is determined and ratified at this point.

I agree that hell is different than the Lake of Fire. The word used in the Greek is probably Sheol, Hades, "the grave", the realm of the dead.

This is why I think the information Jesus gives about the state of the dead in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is so important. He describes it perfectly. Here's part of that discussion. Also, below that, a scripture from the Gospel of John to compare.

Luke 16:22-28
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
So, the soul that was not resurrected to continue in the new order of things, at the White Throne Judgement, in the new earth and the new heaven, CANNOT continue serving in death, as the final enemy had to have been destroyed/annihilated.

limné: a lake of uncertain origin, because it is erased from the creation of God.

So that God's fire renders souls, that are not written in the book of life, to be destined to an uncertain origin, that is oblivion, meaning blackness, complete and utter eraser from God's soul repository. The deletion of the soul, is the second death. The book of the condemned are souls awaiting deletion, the killing of the soul (user account deletion) by God (Creation system administrator).

All eyes will see Jesus on the White Throne Judgement as the Righteous Judge, All will kneel before him and All are destined to biologically die once, then to face his Judgement in the Final Judgment of the Dead at his Appearing (2 Timothy 4:8).

What about this?

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

 

[Saint Steven]

That may be but the OP was effectively asking why that was the case, why the need for a resurrection?
Or put another way, If we are souls in heaven after our death (if saved) then what is lacking that a resurrection is needed?.

Right.
I wonder if the resurrection of the dead is only for the lost. Those yet to be judged by their works.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For the believer, eternal life is a present possession.
We will not be in the judgment of the lost. In fact we may take place in judging them.
Salvation is positional. We have been "moved" (crossed over) from death to life. (Luke 16:26)

1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

 

[The Times]

But the scripture indicates directly, not indirectly.
Or, there is a spiritual body that is perpetually "destroyed". (eternal punishment)

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Think of it this way, if the body can be destroyed without Hell, then why does it need to be destroyed within Hell, it is a total overkill. In fact, it doesn't mean the way you take it to mean, in a direct way that is.

 

[The Times]

I agree that hell is different than the Lake of Fire. The word used in the Greek is probably Sheol, Hades, "the grave", the realm of the dead.

This is why I think the information Jesus gives about the state of the dead in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is so important. He describes it perfectly. Here's part of that discussion. Also, below that, a scripture from the Gospel of John to compare.

Luke 16:22-28
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Yes, there is crossing over from death to life, but death spoken of is the grave, shoel, where the body decompossses. Grave is not Hell. Grave is not the place of torment, rather Hell is. Abraham was in the Grave and there was a great divide from Lazarus who was in Abraham's Bosom to the rich man who is being tormented.

Distinction between the grave/shoel and Hell is quite apparent in those versus I read, don't you think so?

 

[The Times]

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Focus on the antecedent term "the smoke".

Let me ask you if I said....

"He left him for dead"

Is "him" dead?

No, it is just a figurative statement, implying that "he" completely demolished "him", in say a race for example.

"The smoke" is figurative to imply there is nothing left of them, but a memory of what was.

I will give you another example.....

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Long after the fact, Jude brings Sodom and Gomorrah into remembrance, in highlighting that their suffering the vengeance of eternal fire was total and complete destruction, never to reel back from it ever again. The figurative language used in "the smoke" is the same principle of understanding what is being implied, that is the Lake of Fire is a place where a soul will be completely destroyed, never to rise up again.

 

[Saint Steven]

Think of it this way, if the body can be destroyed without Hell, then why does it need to be destroyed within Hell, it is a total overkill. In fact, it doesn't mean the way you take it to mean, in a direct way that is.

Jesus was pretty clear on this point. I think I'll stick with what he said.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.