The State of the Dead

[dreadnought]

.
Was Jesus invisible when He was Resurrected, and went to the Disciples?

If I remember correctly, no.

 

[drjean]

First let me be clear from which I speak:
There is the body - earthly flesh for now, to be changed later
There is the soul - the will, the mind, the emotions (can change-Let this mind be)
There is the spirit - that which was dead and is quickened immediately upon being born again

When Christ resurrected, He returned in a heavenly but physical body. He walked, and talked with His voice, with them. He ate with them, they could touch Him (doubting Thomas insisted!)... and He was the same personality that they knew before the crucifixion and resurrection.

From this we can draw an accurate conclusion, since we will be like Him, that we will still be who we are, people will know us and we will recognize them as well. We will be eating and drinking (remember the marriage SUPPER takes place after the rapture and our being changed in a twinkling of an eye) and the Lord's Supper (of remembrance He had)

What was corruptible becomes incorruptible. Perhaps the body God always intended for us that died in the garden of Eden?

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's my take on this.
We are created in three parts; body, soul, and spirit.
Our physical body will perish and be replaced with a new spiritual body.

Our soul is the personality and intellect, our mind. It is who we are, our identity.
It's what makes you, you. It's like the hard drive in your computer.
God will take your "hard drive" (mind) and put it in a new brain. (new body)

Earth is a natural environment. Heaven is a supernatural environment.
We will need a supernatural body to live there. It will be very much like our current world. As I understand it.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Here's my take on this.
We are created in three parts; body, soul, and spirit.
Our physical body will perish and be replaced with a new spiritual body.

Our soul is the personality and intellect, our mind. It is who we are, our identity.
It's what makes you, you. It's like the hard drive in your computer.
God will take your "hard drive" (mind) and put it in a new brain. (new body)

Earth is a natural environment. Heaven is a supernatural environment.
We will need a supernatural body to live there. It will be very much like our current world. As I understand it.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So based on your definition, can the soul exist without the body?

I believe the soul is the complete man as per Genesis 2:7.

 

[Saint Steven]

So based on your definition, can the soul exist without the body?

I believe the soul is the complete man as per Genesis 2:7.

Yes, I believe the soul can exist without the body.

We see this in NDEs. In a near death experience (NDE), a person in an emergency situation can see the doctors working on their traumatized body. Their mind/soul is witnessing what is happening. They are having a conscious experience. Which they are typically able to tell others about later.

There is more than one meaning of the word soul. It is also used to describe the whole person as a living soul. But the thrust of the meaning has to do with the individual identity of the person. Which is held in the mind/soul.

 

[Sorn]

There has to be something that IS YOU that survives your death otherwise you can not be brought back to life, only a copy or clone of you could.

Lets say that when you die all that remains of you is a perfect memory of you in Gods head or mind.
His information about you will be flawless but its still not you, its information about you.

God can use this information to re-create or 'resurrect' another you (ie a perfect copy) but it won't be you, it will just be a copy. As the information that God has is about you and not you then he could use this information to resurrect (or re-create) you multiple times, there could be a hundred you's running around in heaven, each a copy of the original (with a new body of course), but none of them actually the you that lived and died on earth and made the choice for God.

Its like saying, will God and Jesus be happy to surround themselves in heaven with a copy of everyone who was saved or will they want it to be the actual people who lived, toiled, suffered and died and chose Jesus.
If its the latter then something that is you must survive your death, if its the former, then all that matters is that the information about you survives in some storage medium until required.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

Well first off: Like many subjects in the OT that were only given in partial light. Meaning the ability to form a clear cut and true doctrine on them was quite difficult if not impossible until the light of the world came on the scene. Nor did the people or the Apostles themselves instantly grasp the truth of the things Jesus brought a full light on. In fact they grappled with them even for decades. Shoot. They grappled with things for decades that had far more light revealed in the OT than the subject of resurrection. We are still grappling with many things today and one of those things is the subject of resurrection.

So here is the comprehensive light that Jesus brought on the subject of the resurrection. He used the word "the resurrection" to tell them that the patriarchs and others were alive right now and with God. This astonished them, to hear that their doctrine about resurrection being some future prophetic event was wrong. In these verses Jesus was essentially telling them that the doctrine of resurrection was a teaching about simple and immediate life after the death of the flesh and blood body.

Matthew 22: 23-32. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Now this does not take away from the fact that God resurrects dead flesh and blood bodies like Jesus'. It simply means that the general doctrine of the the resurrection is one of immediate life after death with a spiritual body that has the form of a human being. When we die we step out of these bodies on feet with legs and we have arms and heads and eyes etc etc. and go on to our eternal destiny of heaven or hell.

The NT uses the words resurrection, rise, arisen just like the English language does. The exact meanings of the words, what they are describing are determined by the context the words are used in. Here is an article I wrote that lists al the examples of this.

http://wordservice.org/Bible Basics/bb6000.htm

 

[The Times]

I think I'd rather have a material body, at least a body you could see. I can't imagine living in a world where we are all invisible. Wouldn't it be lonely?

A glorified body is a different garment interface to that of the fleshly body, that is, it is an interface to suite a reality of the house of many rooms (dimensions).

This reality with an earthly fleshly body is an enclosed underground car park in comparison. In this earthly body we live and offer our time and energy to sustain, therefore to serve the fleshly body. In the glorified body, our timeless state, within the eternal nexus of God, is to feed the soul and to grow in ways you could not even imagine within the constraints of the fleshly body.

Pizza or your favourite food or pass time will be like a dismall prison in comparison. Even the relations you hold dear to life in this world are but a tip of the iceberg in comparison to Christ's Heavenly family that awaits you.

Remember our loved ones, inclusive of ourselves, were but strangers and through Christ we have truly come to know who we are and why we are. These are the questions that plague those without Christ in this life alone.

In the glorified body everything will be made crystall clear and you will finally know. To know is where God will be all in all, as Paul once said in the resurrection.

That is why Full Preterism is dismally absent of the reality of knowing, whilst claiming to have been already resurrected.

To know is the reality that makes everything transparent and all fear is removed from knowing all things.

 

[JIMINZ]

No, I want you to answer because 2 persons can look at a verse and have a different understanding. Are you saying that the spirit on its own, is a conscious existence. So when the bible says the spirit returns to God who gave it, is it basically like you are living on in spirit form. Would death simply be, you leaving your body?

.
Now I understand, I thought you were asking if the spirit once in a man has a conscience experience, thus my answer to you, Do you personally Have a conscious existence?

My answer would have to be no.
If the spirit is what animates (Quickens) the physical body of a man, (The Life Force) then it would retain the life of the one giving the life (spirit) to the man, but this does not mean it has a consciousness of itself.

When the body of the man it inhabited physically dies, it returns to God.

Ecc. 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Spirit:
H7307
רוּחַ
rûach
roo'-akh
Wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Man says, "I think therefore I am"

1) Can the spirit of a man say the same of itself?
2) Does the spirit have a life of it's own, or is it life itself only when applied by God to the physical body of the man?

I would have to say, the spirit of a man does not have a consciousness of itself, it may be debatable whether or not it would retain the consciousness of the man it inhabited, but I do not believe it would.

My answer to you at this point is NO, I do not believe the spirit of a man has a consciousness of it's own after physical death of the man it inhabited.

 

[Saint Steven]

In Luke chapter sixteen we find the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus.
And aside from the debate about whether it is a story or a parable we can discern some things about the afterlife. Unless someone wants to claim that Jesus was intentionally misleading his listeners about the subject.

What do we find that indicates that we will have physical bodies?
See bold emphasis below.

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[cfyahoo08]

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

In Luke chapter sixteen we find the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus.
And aside from the debate about whether it is a story or a parable we can discern some things about the afterlife. Unless someone wants to claim that Jesus was intentionally misleading his listeners about the subject.

What do we find that indicates that we will have physical bodies?
See bold emphasis below.

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

No, you can use this passage of scripture to try to support your belief. This was a parable, that is actually very important to understanding this passage. Parables are not stories of events that actually took place, they are made up stories given to illustrate a point. Luke 16 starts with a parable of the dishonest steward, then he continues with this parable. What is the link between the 2 parables? What is the point the parable is trying to illustrate. You cannot just remove a parable from its context, ignore the point of the parable and use details of the parable for an actual doctrinal position.

I saw someone of Fox News do exactly that. This guy was arguing that there should be no minimum wage. He used the parable of the landowner who went out to find workers for his vineyard and while some of them worked for longer than others, they all got the same wage. He used this parable to say that it is totally up to the employer to determine the wage of his employees and nobody should be able to force him to pay them any particular wage. That is what happens when you take a parable, miss the point and then try to use details of the parable to form an opinion. A parable is not to be used that way.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Yes, I believe the soul can exist without the body.

We see this in NDEs. In a near death experience (NDE), a person in an emergency situation can see the doctors working on their traumatized body. Their mind/soul is witnessing what is happening. They are having a conscious experience. Which they are typically able to tell others about later.

There is more than one meaning of the word soul. It is also used to describe the whole person as a living soul. But the thrust of the meaning has to do with the individual identity of the person. Which is held in the mind/soul.

Well to be honest, that belief of the soul came from greek philosophy. Look up the writings of Plato and Socrates on what the soul is. The word for soul in Hebrew means a living, breathing scripture. In Genesis 2:7 the bible says that man became a living soul after the breath of life was added to his body. It never said man contained a living soul.

I also do not think you can take NDE's as credible, medically and otherwise. You can't use people individual experiences in which they claimed something happened to them to try to explain the bible.

 

[Ronald]

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

Souls (The mind, emotions, will and personality of an individual - our invisible part) is immaterial and cannot materialize as Jesus did. When the Resurrection occurs, in the twinkling of an eye, our new, multi-dimensional bodies will be able to physically materialize as Jesus did with more abilities, spiritually and physically. It will a perfect body that can function on the new earth or new heaven. Btw, the New Jerusalem will be heaven on earth (the new earth after He destroys all former things - Rev. 21:4)

 

[FatalHeart]

Did we all just forget that Jesus was raised bodily from the dead?

 

[Colter]

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

We will be resurrected in a new form like Jesus was. As we continue inward from world to world in route to Paradise, our form will keep changing.

People who think heaven will be an eternal rest of sitting on your new butt forever are doomed to be disappointed, there is still much more work ahead!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

We will be resurrected in a new form like Jesus was. As we continue inward from world to world in route to Paradise, our form will keep changing.

People who think heaven will be an eternal rest of sitting on your new butt forever are doomed to be disappointed, there is still much more work ahead!

What nonsense are you talking? Our form will keep changing as we travel from world to world? Can you show me just 1 scripture to validate what you're saying? Let me ask you this, if you're wrong and actually you would be living in heaven forever would you be disappointed?

 

[Saint Steven]

No, you can use this passage of scripture to try to support your belief. This was a parable, that is actually very important to understanding this passage. Parables are not stories of events that actually took place, they are made up stories given to illustrate a point. Luke 16 starts with a parable of the dishonest steward, then he continues with this parable. What is the link between the 2 parables? What is the point the parable is trying to illustrate. You cannot just remove a parable from its context, ignore the point of the parable and use details of the parable for an actual doctrinal position.

I saw someone of Fox News do exactly that. This guy was arguing that there should be no minimum wage. He used the parable of the landowner who went out to find workers for his vineyard and while some of them worked for longer than others, they all got the same wage. He used this parable to say that it is totally up to the employer to determine the wage of his employees and nobody should be able to force him to pay them any particular wage. That is what happens when you take a parable, miss the point and then try to use details of the parable to form an opinion. A parable is not to be used that way.

Are you claiming that Jesus was intentionally misleading his listeners about the subject of the afterlife?

 

[Saint Steven]

Well to be honest, that belief of the soul came from greek philosophy. Look up the writings of Plato and Socrates on what the soul is. The word for soul in Hebrew means a living, breathing scripture. In Genesis 2:7 the bible says that man became a living soul after the breath of life was added to his body. It never said man contained a living soul.

I also do not think you can take NDE's as credible, medically and otherwise. You can't use people individual experiences in which they claimed something happened to them to try to explain the bible.

What do you make of this?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Are you claiming that Jesus was intentionally misleading his listeners about the subject of the afterlife?

No because the issue was not about explaining what the afterlife is like. This parable was a message to the Jews especially the pharisees. They were the stewards of the gospel, the Jews were supposed to be the ones to evangelize the world. The rich man in the parable is a representation of the Jewish nation. They were rich with the gospel but were stingy and selfish with it, not wanted to share it with the begger lazarus who was a representation of the gentiles. The point of the parable is that just being a physical descendant of Abraham doesn't mean you are close to him at all. You claim Abraham as your father but yet your heart is far far away from Abraham's God. The message of God was entrusted to them but they used it to view themselves better than everyone else, to view other people as unclean, to not even want to talk to them, to look down on them. This theme is represented in many of Jesus's parables all using different illustrations. In the parable of the wedding feasts, the people who the invitation was originally given rejected it and were eventually lost. In the parable of the tenants and the landowner who went away but sent his servants to collect his product, they killed them, then he sent his son, they rejected and killed his son and were eventually destroyed when the master came back. So this parable follows the same line. How do I know that? Because the rich man asked the Lazarus be sent to warn his brethren, but Abraham said to him that they have Moses and the prophets. Its the same as in the parable with the tenants where God sends his prophets and they ignore and kill them. Matthew 23:37, Jesus says it plainly.

The parable also can be looked at in a more straightforward way. The belief at that time was that being Jewish means you were privileged for salvation but being rich means you were doubly privileged. Poverty and sickness were seen as signs that someone was not favored by God and was a sinner. Almost time same as how they viewed gentiles. So Lazarus being poor means he was not really supposed to be saved. The rich man, being rich means he was supposed to be saved. But the parable shows their destinations to show that their mindset was completely wrong.

All of this is what I believe the parable is really trying to say, not to try to explain what the afterlife is like. To me that is like using the parable of the 10 virgins to try to say at the second coming of Jesus there is literally going to be a wedding. Figuratively you can describe it like that, but literally no. So I do not believe that Abraham's Bosom is a literal place, but the bosom is a symbol of closeness and a parental bond.