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Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Der Alte

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You're missing the point. Let me ask you this. If I told you to go to the bus stop to catch the "hourly bus", would you think that the bus.......
1. Comes to the stop every hour?
OR
2. Comes to the stop once a day?
You completely ignored my post and posted a nonsensical question. I suppose that someone could concoct any number of "examples" in English to "prove" almost anything. Since you seem to be presenting yourself as knowledgeable in Greek perhaps you could find an example or two in the NT which will make your point.
.....Or you could find a credible Greek grammar which supports your argument. I have four Greek grammars in my library, Smyth, Robertson, Wallace and Martin. As with most things I prefer the opinions of credible experts vs internet "experts." Since you totally ignored my post unless I see something credible you will not receive a reply.
 
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ClementofA

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Revelation 22:5 ...they shall reign for ever and ever. G165 G165; Revelation 19:3 her smoke rose up for ever and ever. G165 G165 Revelation 15:7 ...of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. G165 G165


12 points re forever and ever being finite
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…
 
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ClementofA

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What part of ever do you not understand?


Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/for-the-lord-will-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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Pneuma3

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There will indeed be torment in hell, very painful, but it will not be eternal, it will be momentary. God in his authority has already predestined who will be thrown in the lake of fire before the foundation of the world, it would be nonsensical for God to consign most of mankind to eternal torment, when the true purpose of Hell is to render death in a very painful way unto those God appointed to be sinners, so that through them he may demonstrate his wrath, power, and judgment; where after these things have been shown, they serve no other purpose but to cease to exist as quickly as they came into existence, hence "the wicked are like the chaff that the wind blows away" and the "wicked will become ashes under the feet of the righteous". The punishment for sin is death, not eternal torment. The doctrine of eternal torment is a serious misunderstanding of the nature of God and contrary to what the scriptures teach.

That is one heck of a wicked view of Love triumphant.
God so loved the world, not just some in the world.
Terrible terrible terrible view of God.
You might want to look up what it means to be fitted to destruction as you are way way off base here.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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That is one heck of a wicked view of Love triumphant.
God so loved the world, not just some in the world.
Terrible terrible terrible view of God.
You might want to look up what it means to be fitted to destruction as you are way way off base here.
Terrible terrible terrible .....
all society is pernicious (death dealing wicked)..... as God Himself Says.
 
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Pneuma3

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Which is more cruel,

1. Being burned alive endlessly for all eternity.
OR
2. God in his own authority choosing who he will destroy, so that through their destruction he may reveal his power and judgment, that ends in their cessation of existence. Their purpose of existence was merely to show these characteristics of God.

Another example could be, which is more cruel,
1. Punishing someone to endless painful electrocution that never ends in death.
OR
2. Punishing someone to die by electrocution quickly.

both are cruel and should be discarded.
Now the salvation of all, that is worthy of almighty God.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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both are cruel and should be discarded.
Now the salvation of all, that is worthy of almighty God.
No. Not cruel. (except to sinful human emotions/ man's sinful way of thinking) ...
Also, That would not only be unworthy,
it would be unrighteous,
it would be unjust,
it would be wrong and evil,
according to Yahweh's Own Word already given.
 
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ClementofA

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Here is the definition of aionios from BAGD again. Please observe the many sources they used to determine the meaning are highlighted in blue.

That's BDAG, not BAGD. And here we see many sources BDAG left out:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html


I have faith in an accredited a languags resource which has been validated by many scholars.

Congrats on your - blind - faith in a guy named Danker. Others prefer to put their - both eyes closed - faith in one of the Pontiffs or Old Slewfoot.

You have BDAG you could look up the cited references for yourself. Why have you deliberately refused to consult a source that you have in your possession and make all these false claims and accusations? What is your ulterior motive?

I've already posted many remarks in opposition to many of the BDAG cites conclusions. I have done this with facts, info from scholars, ECF, logic & Scripture, etc. I have also quoted scholars who remark upon the weaknesses, errors & inadequacies of lexicons in general, including BDAG.

Why doesn't BDAG list the following dozens of "ancient soucres cited under aionios"? Did the author purposely omit them to weigh the evidence according to his biases? To sell books?

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

Considering that the following is the only ancient reference that has been provided in this discussion of the phrase "aionion God", & aionion therein is finite, the score stands at 1-0 until you can provide something to add to your nil total so far:
"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?"
Have you ever actually seen this so-called lead tablet or a photo of it? How do you know it says what Deissman claims?

Ask yourself the same regarding the following you posted from BDAG.

My evidence. I have highlighted the sources the authors cited in blue. Since you have indicated you don't know what I am talking about.
αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.


You & Danker have provided - no evidence - that any of those references should be interpreted to mean "pert. to a period of unending duration, without end". Anyone can post a bunch of references & make all kinds of claims about what they mean. Proving it from context is something else completely. And, BTW, lexicons & scholars are often in disagreement with each other re aionios. Even those that are biased to endless hell are in much disharmony amongst themselves on various points re aionios.

Furthermore, the dishonesty of Danker can be seen in his only cite of Origen under aionios saying "in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3)", while ignoring all Origen's references to aionios that are finite, as i've documented here:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

BDAG's entry above re aionios has many cites re Diodorus Siculus, Philo & Josephus. There again Danker omits examples where such authors use aionios of finite duration. For example, see the reference to Philo at the above url.

Moreover you have your rare theory that aion & aionios always mean eternal unless used in hyperbole. Generally scholars, including BDAG, oppose your opinion.

BDAG has been peer reviewed by many Greek scholars for more than one hundred years.

BDAG was only published in 2000. And you've never provided a single critical review of it re the word aionios.

The Greek scholar & early church father, Origen, in his commentary on John implies that aionios life is finite:

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. " (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Tu...rding to John, Books 13-32, By Origen&f=false

BDAG's (W.F. Danker, reviser & editor) entry on aionios omits that & generally ignores Origen, except for one reference to support the BDAG bias. Likewise Danker omits many other references to aionios as finite duration in ancient Koine Greek. Such as, for many examples, the following:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

Elsewhere BDAG is perhaps a bit less biased against a universalist interpretation of Scripture. For example, re the word "destruction" that occurs at 2 Thess.1:9, Danker continues his bias re aionios with a reference to "eternal death", but also states:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..." (p702)

https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG) https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Which opposes rendering aionios there as "eternal", favoring it being finite.

1 Cor.5:4-5 also uses the word in the context of a positive purpose:

4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Which compares to the following remark:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

However being from uncited wiki sources, we won't put much stock in that until such can be verified from other sources.

Returning to Danker's quote of "eternal death" above re the BDAG entry on ὄλεθρος, I will note that Scripture never refers to "death" as being "eternal". To the contrary, it speaks of death being abolished (1 Cor.15:26; 2 Tim.1:10; Rev.21:4).

F.W. Danker also remarked regarding ἀποκαταλλάσσω:

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

This is a prime example of heterodox cherry picking sources to support assumptions/presuppositions.

Checkout the orthodox universalism majority in the early church (and a hope for universalism majority in the present day church):

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfund...017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/


If you think BDAG is wrong you will have to prove it

If you think the Bible & the early church & the modern church are all wrong, you will have to prove it.

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Oldmantook

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Just as I said you quote Young's because he agrees with your assumptions/presuppositions.
Your reply is laughable except for the fact that you take yourself seriously. Don't you quote from translations that support your view? Quite hypocritical.

But you will not acknowledge that Paul used aionios and aidios synonymously to refer to God.
Of course not. Did you not read the content of my reply and my reasons for not interpreting those words as synonymous? Reply to my content instead of ignoring it.

First you have to provide evidence or an argument which definitely shows that only your interpretation is correct and that my interretation cannot be correct.
Read it for yourself and provide a counterpoint - if you're capable.

I thought my discussion of kosmos would go right over your head. There is an entire earth but none of the scriptures I quoted which used the terms "all the earth" and "the whole world" could possibly refer to the entire world. That is known as "hyperbole." There are many examples of hyperbole in the Bible. "Aionios" is used in the NT to refer to things that are eternal and things that are not eternal. Refer to explanation in previous sentence.
Of course there is hyperbole. Your mistake is using your perceived hyperbole using kosmos and attempting to apply the same to a completely different word in aionios. That is sloppy hermeneutics to say the least; otherwise known as bait and switch.

glad you know what Paul should have done but your continue to ignore the fact that Paul used both aidios and aionios to refer to God. How native Greek speakers used a word is how the meaning is determined.
.....I learned to speak German when I was 12, 6 years later I was stationed in Germany where I improved my knowledge. On my third tour, which included the year Kennedy was assassinated, although I was fairly fluent I was talking to a lady who did not speak English. She used a word I did not know "beinahe." She used a few examples using different words until I understood it meant "almost." I didn't make up a meaning that suited me. Bet this is another "whoosh.
Of course they both refer to God - I didn't ignore it. I demonstrated that one refers to God's nature while the other refers to God's method in relating to mankind. God is eternal and he works out his will through the ages. That seems to be the whoosh that flies over your head.
 
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Pneuma3

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No. Not cruel. (except to sinful human emotions/ man's sinful way of thinking) ...
Also, That would not only be unworthy,
it would be unrighteous,
it would be unjust,
it would be wrong and evil,
according to Yahweh's Own Word already given.

Ya it would be all that and more.

We are commanded to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

Any other gospel, in the same chapter, Paul says is nothing more then a doctrine of devils.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Ya it would be all that and more.

We are commanded to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

Any other gospel, in the same chapter, Paul says is nothing more then a doctrine of devils.
It is also a false gospel to say that all men are saved, no matter if they repent or not, etc etc etc

The beast today on earth tells men not to worry , they will be okay.....
 
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Pneuma3

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Your reply is laughable except for the fact that you take yourself seriously. Don't you quote from translations that support your view? Quite hypocritical.


Of course not. Did you not read the content of my reply and my reasons for not interpreting those words as synonymous? Reply to my content instead of ignoring it.


Read it for yourself and provide a counterpoint - if you're capable.


Of course there is hyperbole. Your mistake is using your perceived hyperbole using kosmos and attempting to apply the same to a completely different word in aionios. That is sloppy hermeneutics to say the least; otherwise known as bait and switch.


Of course they both refer to God - I didn't ignore it. I demonstrated that one refers to God's nature while the other refers to God's method in relating to mankind. God is eternal and he works out his will through the ages. That seems to be the whoosh that flies over your head.
enjoying your post OMT:clap:
 
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Pneuma3

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It is also a false gospel to say that all men are saved, no matter if they repent or not, etc etc etc

The beast today on earth tells men not to worry , they will be okay.....
and that comment shows me how little you understand the salvation of all (gospel) message.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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and that comment shows me how little you understand the salvation of all (gospel) message.
Your false version you mean, as you clearly contradict much of Scripture,
apparently choosing
instead of trusting Yahweh
to trust men that taught you lies, as the rest of the world mostly falls for also.
 
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Pneuma3

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Your false version you mean, as you clearly contradict much of Scripture,
apparently choosing
instead of trusting Yahweh
to trust men that taught you lies, as the rest of the world mostly falls for also.

actually that is pretty much on target about what Paul says about any other gospel accept the one we are commanded to teach. You know the one that states Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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actually that is pretty much on target about what Paul says about any other gospel accept the one we are commanded to teach. You know the one that states Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN.
You ignore all of His Word that says who perishes. (multitudes sent away on judgment day , who in error believed they were saved because others like you told them they were saved, when they were condemned already for their unbelief)
Using a faulty translation and/or erring in your understanding, no surprise, eh?
 
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Pneuma3

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You ignore all of His Word that says who perishes. (multitudes sent away on judgment day , who in error believed they were saved because others like you told them they were saved, when they were condemned already for their unbelief)
Using a faulty translation and/or erring in your understanding, no surprise, eh?
again you show you do not understand the salvation of all/gospel message. or you are just trying to confuse others about what we believe because if these last few posts of yours are any indication then you are one mixed up dude on the gospel/salvation of all message.
 
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cwo

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You completely ignored my post and posted a nonsensical question. I suppose that someone could concoct any number of "examples" in English to "prove" almost anything. Since you seem to be presenting yourself as knowledgeable in Greek perhaps you could find an example or two in the NT which will make your point.
.....Or you could find a credible Greek grammar which supports your argument. I have four Greek grammars in my library, Smyth, Robertson, Wallace and Martin. As with most things I prefer the opinions of credible experts vs internet "experts." Since you totally ignored my post unless I see something credible you will not receive a reply.

And you completely ignored my questions. So I guess we'll carry on ignoring each other. ;-)
 
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cwo

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both are cruel and should be discarded.
Now the salvation of all, that is worthy of almighty God.

The salvation of murderers and rapists who refused to repent is righteous and worthy of praise to God for saving them? Haha.
 
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