Islam and Christianity - are they really the same religion?

[Dave RP]

Christian theology implodes if Jesus did not die on the cross, it would become an incoherent message. If a religion has claims that if applied to another religion would cause its theology to implode, they can not be the same religion.

And this doesn’t even get into the details of crucifixion, which is death by asphyxiation. If you ‘Are strong enough to survive’ (as you say) much longer than Jesus did it means that you must keep pushing yourself up with your legs to avoid dying by suffocation. This is why the Romans would break the person’s legs sometimes to speed things up. You can’t ‘Be Strong’ by playing dead in the hopes to fool the executioner, if you play dead and stop pushing you will die for real.

Your thin criteria literally causes the word heresy to be a non-existent term.

Yes it’s a different religion, but based on so much that is similar. God is God, bible or Koran stories are stories. I’ll still stick to my basic premise - 2 religions, one god, just interpretation.

 

[RDKirk]

Well we do worship the same God as the Jews we just have different ideas of him. We just believe Yahweh came to Earth as a man while Jews deny this, that’s the main difference and dividing line between us.

That means we don't believe in the same being. They believe in a god who they describe as a totally different being from the God we believe in. They adamantly do not believe in the God we describe that we believe in.

So the god they believe is not the same God as we believe.

 

[RDKirk]

I disagree there, Jews reject he concept of Yahweh coming as a man named Jesus, however Christians worship Yahweh as Jews do, the dividing line all comes down to Jesus being Yahweh incarnate.

No. The god Muslims describe is not the same God we believe in, nor even the same God Jews believe in. Their texts are different--the Koran does not describe the God as described by the Jewish scriptures. Totally different beings.

 

[Barney2.0]

That means we don't believe in the same being. They believe in a god who they describe as a totally different being from the God we believe in. They adamantly do not believe in the God we describe that we believe in.

So the god they believe is not the same God as we believe.

Those are characteristics, if you worship the God of Israel then it’s pretty much the same God.

 

[Barney2.0]

No. The god Muslims describe is not the same God we believe in, nor even the same God Jews believe in. Their texts are different--the Koran does not describe the God as described by the Jewish scriptures. Totally different beings.

I never claimed Muslims wohsip the same God as the Christians and Jews.

 

[Barney2.0]

There is only one way to the Father, and that is through Christ. If they had known the Father, they would also have known Christ.

They worship God, but they don’t know him as he was.

 

[Silmarien]

Well yes I am being a tad superficial, this is not a Masters Degree in theology, it’s a Christian Apologetics forum.

What I suppose I’m getting at is that Islam and Christianity share so much, way more than divides them. Apart from Christ rising from the dead, and the bizarre concept of one god = three gods, they share a lot of basic concepts.

I would actually consider Islam a form of Gnostic Christianity, given some of its influences, but genuine orthodox Christianity, with its Incarnational theology, is in a different universe entirely than any other religion. That is a distance that no number of similarities can bridge.

I would agree that all traditional monotheists and panentheists worship the same God, though. The only question is who has the most accurate conception, but that's not the sort of question you can write off as unimportant.

 

[RDKirk]

I would agree that all traditional monotheists and panentheists worship the same God, though. The only question is who has the most accurate conception, but that's not the sort of question you can write off as unimportant.

You're saying, then, that Odin and Zeus are the same person as the God of Abraham?

 

[Silmarien]

You're saying, then, that Odin and Zeus are the same person as the God of Abraham?

Neither Odin nor Zeus is traditional monotheism or panentheism.

 

[Athanasius377]

There is only one god according to these religions, the god of Jesus. Abraham, Moses etc. They do follow the same god, just in a different way.

Well, no. If Jesus is God or not is the issue. To say God became man is anathema to the believing Muslim. Furthermore to say God more than one Person is violation of Tawhid (oneness). That isn't a different way, that's a different God. There are two choices, either God was incarnate or he was not. The rest pivots on that assertion. Jesus is All God, or He is a prophet, there is no compromise. No matter what any Christian or Islamic leader may say. And if Jesus is God then He is not the Islamic God because He is more than one person. If you want a an answer from the Islamic side call the talk show and press them on this point.

 

[Norbert L]

Hence I still maintain that these two religions have way more in common than many people realise , and that is that was more publicly acknowledged, there would be a lot less strife in the world.

Nobodies denying that these two religions have things in common, but the problem certainly isn't a lack of public acknowledgement. The problem is that such a thing is being over acknowledged in popular media and that is the reason why there is push back by Christians. We know there are also huge differences between the two religions.

What needs to be maintained is a fair evaluation between these two faiths. What needs to be realized by many people is where they differ and where they are the same. Without the whole story, half truths can mislead people into ignorance.

 

[Dave RP]

Well, no. If Jesus is God or not is the issue. To say God became man is anathema to the believing Muslim. Furthermore to say God more than one Person is violation of Tawhid (oneness). That isn't a different way, that's a different God. There are two choices, either God was incarnate or he was not. The rest pivots on that assertion. Jesus is All God, or He is a prophet, there is no compromise. No matter what any Christian or Islamic leader may say. And if Jesus is God then He is not the Islamic God because He is more than one person. If you want a an answer from the Islamic side call the talk show and press them on this point.

I’m not suggesting you share any core beliefs as individuals or via the doctrines of the religions, I’m suggesting that there are many similarities and that the two religions have way more in common than separates them.

If scripture had been written or interpreted differently then we could have ended up with Mohamed being a prophet of a different version of Christianity?

 

[RDKirk]

Neither Odin nor Zeus is traditional monotheism or panentheism.

They're thousands of years old. They were extant beliefs when Christianity was in its infancy. They wre the beliefs Christianity had to compete against. How can they not be traditional when they're older than Christianity? And, btw, there was a monotheistic sect belief in Zeus.

 

[Abraxos]

Well yes I am being a tad superficial, this is not a Masters Degree in theology, it’s a Christian Apologetics forum.

What I suppose I’m getting at is that Islam and Christianity share so much, way more than divides them. Apart from Christ rising from the dead, and the bizarre concept of one god = three gods, they share a lot of basic concepts.

Sharing a view means that there is a fair distribution from one to the other and vice-versa, however in this case, to suppose Islam "shared" it's views with Christianity doesn't make much sense considering monotheistically, Islam is relatively new and had not shared anything but plagiarised parts from Christian and Jewish doctrines, and altered them a little while also exhibiting regional influences from the pagan moon god which had dominion in the Arabian peninsula pre-Islamic times. It's basically a conflation of centuries old held beliefs and religions, and posing as the successor of Judeo-Christianity.
It was considered that Islam was and is a form of Gnostic Christianity which I agree with, and additionally, from a biblical perspective, Islam is technically a Christian heresy (Galatians 1:6-10 ~ Apostle Paul's view on another gospel) as it's evidently a perversion of the canonical gospel which was long accepted for centuries before Mohammed had his secret revelation in a terrifying encounter with an "angel" in the cave of Hira.

It's pretty much a fallacy to assume that Islam supposedly shared similarities with Christianity when one cherry-picks a few comparable doctrines while ignoring the significant differences in doctrine and historical significance. It's interesting that you admit you're a tad superficial on this matter, which brings in the credibility of your suppositions which are based on a lack of depth on the subject.

 

[Silmarien]

They're thousands of years old. They were extant beliefs when Christianity was in its infancy. They wre the beliefs Christianity had to compete against. How can they not be traditional when they're older than Christianity? And, btw, there was a monotheistic sect belief in Zeus.

They're polytheistic, therefore they're not traditional monotheism or panentheism. I specify "traditional" to rule out anyone who believes in an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnimalevolent God, or anything along those lines. That would be a sufficiently radical departure to say that you're no longer worshipping the same God.

If you've got a Tri-Omni necessary being, I don't care if you call it YHWH, Allah, the One, Brahman, or even Zeus if you've ditched the whole pagan mythology and kept the name. People are quite clearly talking about the same thing. This doesn't mean that everyone is correct in their theology (obviously that is impossible), but having an incomplete understanding of God does not actually entail belief in some hypothetical other deity.

 

[Barney2.0]

They're thousands of years old. They were extant beliefs when Christianity was in its infancy. They wre the beliefs Christianity had to compete against. How can they not be traditional when they're older than Christianity? And, btw, there was a monotheistic sect belief in Zeus.

There were Henothistic cults of Zeus, but no actual Monostheistic ones.

 

[RDKirk]

There were Henothistic cults of Zeus, but no actual Monostheistic ones.

If you want to split that hair, fine. There's considerable Christian common teaching that's hard to distinguish from henotheistic belief.

 

[Barney2.0]

If you want to split that hair, fine. There's considerable Christian common teaching that's hard to distinguish from henotheistic belief.

Christianity strictly denies the existence of any other gods besides the one true God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are Christianity and Judaism the same religion or two different religions? Both Jews and Christians recognize that we have different religions; in spite of the fact that Christianity has its origins in the context of 1st century Judaism. Early on in Muslim history the Christian response to Islam was that Islam wasn't a different religion, but a heretical offshoot of Christianity, and was largely treated as such.

That gives some fluidity to the concept here; but nobody today thinks Islam and Christianity are the same religion just of different kinds; likewise the same with Christianity and Judaism.https://www.christianforums.com/forums/american-politics.909/

Sometimes, because of shared ideas, religions have commonalities, as in the case of the Abrahamic religions. But simply because both Christians and Muslims recognize Jesus as having importance doesn't mean there are intensely significance differences.

If we try and find something of a highly minimalistic, kernel of an idea for Christianity, it would look something like this:

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God of God, our Lord; who suffered under Pilate, was crucified, buried, dead, and rose from the dead. God sent Jesus to save us.

Even without getting into conversations about Christ's Deity, or what it means to say Jesus is the Son of God, or any of those things we have a kernel idea:

-Jesus is the Messiah.
-He is, in a unique way, called the Son of God.
-He is to be called Lord, having magisterial and kingly authority from God in a larger, even cosmic sense.
-He was tried before the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, who had Him put to death--and He died.
-After He died, He stopped being dead, being raised up from the dead.
-Jesus is our Savior, He brings salvation.

This kernel of what makes Christianity Christianity is not identical to what makes Islam Islam.

The core, or kernal, the defining feature(s) of Islam are:

-The absolute oneness of God.
-God sends messengers to mankind to return human beings to the true worship of the one God.
-Muhammad is the chief messenger of God, the Seal of the Prophets.
-The Qur'an is the full, final, and perfect revelation from God of what God desires of human beings.

Jesus has a role here, as a messenger of God. But the fundamentally unique quality which Christians ascribe to Jesus is not found here:

When Christians say Jesus is the Messiah, we are speaking of Him as more than messenger or prophet, but as King, even the King of kings. There can be no loftier person than Jesus here. Because He is also called Lord. He is also Savior, the redeemer of the world.

Christianity insists that Jesus is King and Lord.
Christianity insists that Jesus died by crucifixion and was resurrected.
Christianity insists that Jesus is the Savior of the world.

This makes Jesus, in Christianity, not merely an important player; but the chief article of our religion, the object of our devotion and religion. Jesus is absolutely at the center of our faith and practice, our tradition, our worship, our confession--everything about Christianity ultimately is centered upon the figure of Jesus.

Attempting to argue that Christianity and Islam are "basically the same" because we both refer to the figure of Jesus, and use some of the same words: Messiah, born of a virgin, etc; doesn't change the fact that the very core ideas of our two religions are markedly different; and that beyond superficial similarities we are saying radically different things about the figure of Jesus.

In Christianity Jesus is the center of our devotion.
In Islam Jesus is a messenger among many messengers, a very important messenger, but still another messenger among many messengers.

I don't think we can simply pretend that these sorts of differences aren't of such significance as to warrant the recognition of the two as distinct religions with radically distinct foci. It isn't the same thing as the distinction between Catholicism and Protestantism (especially since there is no such thing as "Protestantism", there are many Protestant groups); because at the very core the various branches of the Christian religion are still the Christian religion: the basic core, that the figure of Jesus is the center of our devotional and religious life, is there.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[RDKirk]

Christianity strictly denies the existence of any other gods besides the one true God.

Depends on whether you want to classify any other spiritual entities as "gods."