Is the Fetus a Human Being?

[Hillsage]

Well a LCMS site called Lutheran satire made this video which should explain a lot. I posted this yesterday but it might have been buried:

I saw it, but honestly didn't watch it until just now. Still practicing and shouldn't even be here as much as I have this afternoon. But I"m curious now, having watched it. Do you know what the "inside joke" was at the end? Maybe Uni can enlighten us....if he returns. Hopefully he is just on a much needed coffee break and I'm just a 'this afternoon' fill in. I can't even imagine how 'most here' would survive as much retaliation as he has had to deal with, being so out numbered. A plight which I truly have admired. And a 'position' which I certainly don't want to exchange places for. I will be dropping off exchange with many from here on out. But you aren't there yet....brother.

 

[ubicaritas]

So, what you are saying is:

"If the human can survive outside of the place that protects it while it's growing.... then you can't abort it.
But....if it cannot survive and relies on the womb to protect it....then it's not protected from abortion."

In other words....

If it needs protection...it has none.... If it is strong enough to live outside unprotected... then protect it.

Does anyone else not see how backward this is?

I just see it as a more realistic balance between conflicting interests.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

This sort of post is really out of line. No-one is encouraging the killing of "babies". An early stage foetus cannot be considered a "baby" and no-one would call it this unless they were trying to lie and deceive.

Um, what? Fetus is a scientific term referring to the human stage of development following zygote, blastocyst, and embryo and prior to infant. Zygote, embryo, fetus, etc. are all just terms referring to "the developing baby inside the mother's womb" https://www.medicinenet.com/embryo_vs_fetus_differences_week-by-week/article.htm

Your argument is like saying a newborn isn't a baby because he's a "neonate" or that a two year old isn't a kid because he's a "toddler."

'Baby' isn't a scientific term - it's a colloquial term. (The scientific term for a child between one month and 12 months is 'infant', and newborn to the end of the first month is 'neonate')

John Hopkin's defines 'fetus' as: "An unborn baby from the 8th week after fertilization until birth."
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...d_childbirth/anatomy_fetus_in_utero_85,P01189

Doctors, mothers, and others regularly refer to unborn children as 'babies.' "Has the baby kicked yet?" "Let's hear your baby's heartbeat," "Does the baby have a name yet?" Etc.

Here are just a few examples:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318993.php
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002398.htm
https://familydoctor.org/taking-care-of-you-and-your-baby-while-youre-pregnant/
https://www.modernmom.com/87d640ba-3b45-11e3-8407-bc764e04a41e.html
https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/keep-baby-healthy-womb-5055.html
https://www.mom365.com/pregnancy/healthy-pregnancy/10-ways-to-communicate-with-your-baby-in-the-womb

Do you really think there is a vast social conspiracy where all doctors and mothers and others who refer to unborn babies as, well, babies are intentionally lying and trying to deceive the world? That seems a bit far fetched...

 

[JacksBratt]

Just thinking of what Satan has done to our worldly way of thinking.

1/ God Made male and female.. told to go and multiply..

Satan says that we don't know if we are a male or female or gay or any part of the LGBT movement and it is all OK.

2/God made Marriage is between a man and a woman..

Satan says you can marry men with men, women with women.. men with animals... marry yourself... It's all OK.

3/ Men are the head of the house and to lead as a servant. Women submit to their husband..

Satan says this is awful. Women should not be demeaned to serventhood under dictatorship of the man and says God's plan is abusive to women.

3/God says "Thou shalt not kill" and "suffer the little children to come unto me" and talks of how He formed and knit the parts of the body together in the womb.

Satan says "it's not a human until it's born. It's OK to kill all the infants before they are born... Or, on some occasions, just let them be partially born, then kill them.

4/God's way is for the parents to raise up their children.

Satan says let the government tell you how to discipline your kids and what you can and cannot teach your kids, especially if it's about God. Satan says no prayer or ten commandments of mention of the Bible in schools.... that would be bad for the kids.

5/God says that people are responsible for their actions and appoints judges to serve punishments based on earthly crime.

Satan says that it's not the criminals fault... it is society so they should not be punished but fixed by psychology. Punishment is bad.

6/God says that He gave a certain parcel of land to His chosen people and they will return to it again.

Satan says.. Israel should not belong to the Jews. They are an awful violent people and should not be allowed to protect their land that we randomly send rockets into, killing innocent women and children.

7/ God made man in His image. God said that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Satan says paint your body, put huge holes in your ears and steel balls under your skin. Stick metal and wooden things through your body parts. It's all good.

8/ God told us to remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
Satan says it's just another day.

9/God told us not to covet.

Satan teaches that if you want it get it. Cannot afford it.. then put it on a credit card. Your neighbor has it.. then go get it too. If it feels good, do it.

10/ God says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"

Satan say's that Jesus was just a man.

11/God tells us to watch out for Satan.

Satan says "I don't exist, Hell doesn't exist, God doesn't exist"

 

[redleghunter]

I didn't. I don't know about you. That was a picture of a dog foetus I posted.

Thus your point being looks determine species?

Many mammals look the same at the earliest stages of development.

 

[JacksBratt]

I just see it as a more realistic balance between conflicting interests.

Oh....Yeah...... I think I read that somewhere in the bible... Ya... God said in the book of neverland Chapter 0 verse 0.... and I quote:
Do whatever you think is best to balance the conflict because the world will change and My laws and commandments will be out of date some day. People will want to do things that I have commanded them not to do. So... when conflict arises... don't listen to your creator... do what you think will avoid conflict or persecution.... You wouldn't want to be persecuted for My sake..


Ya... sorry.. forgot all about God telling us to make up our own minds on moral issues, especially when it involves conflict, and to do whatever balances the interests... Sheesh.... what was I thinking.

 

[redleghunter]

So, what you are saying is:

"If the human can survive outside of the place that protects it while it's growing.... then you can't abort it.
But....if it cannot survive and relies on the womb to protect it....then it's not protected from abortion."

In other words....

If it needs protection...it has none.... If it is strong enough to live outside unprotected... then protect it.

Does anyone else not see how backward this is?

Yes it's very Darwinian.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

I just see it as a more realistic balance between conflicting interests.

Balanced? How? To be balanced something must have an equal distribution of weight, or figuratively the different elements of a conflict or problem must be roughly equal in proportion.

Neither the personal interests nor the potential solutions and potential risks are 'balanced' in the case of abortion.

The interests of the unborn child are primarily continued survival, continued healthy development, and continued safety. The mothers interests are primarily non-survival related: convenience, finances, independence, social standing, etc.
[Only a very small fraction of mothers seeking abortion could be said to have their survival directly threatened, and the majority of those cases would not need abortion as a solution vs. medical treatment which might have a side effect of the child dying.]

So, 'on balance' the interests of the child are superior since they directly relate to the basic needs of survival and not to hardship or convenience.

The potential risks the mother faces by having the child: loss of social standing, loss of free time, loss of finances, loss of independence, potential loss of relationships. The potential losses the child faces if the mother chooses to abort are: near certain death, pain if past as a certain age, potential disfigurement, disability, or torment if the abortion is botched.

On balance, again, the child's risks are directly related to survival whereas the mother's risks are to convenience & lifestyle.

Furthermore, the mother has ways to ease any hardships or inconveniences (local resources, seeking help, adoption, etc.) The unborn baby has no way to stop an abortion.

So, the situation is hardly 'balanced' at all. The person with the most options and the least important needs is given complete control over whether or not the person with the most important needs and no options will die or not.

 

[redleghunter]

Justice and mercy meet in the same reality in God.



No. But we understand "commandment" differently in terms of the function of the Law in relationship to the Gospel, so I used different language to try to accentuate that. The Third use of the Law for Lutherans is more like "guideline" than being some kind of law of nature.

I think Luther's Small Catechism would disagree.

 

[redleghunter]

Law is found in the NT just as Gospel is found in the OT. It depends on what the passage is doing. If it's potentially accusing us of sin, it's Law. If it's promising forgiveness, grace, mercy, and eternal life, it's Gospel.

This is a significant difference between Lutherans and Reformed. Reformed tend to focus on covenant theology that blends the Testaments together and obscures Law and Gospel.

You may want to review Romans 8 a bit to find out I'm not promoting legalism:

Romans 8: NASB
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[ubicaritas]

I saw it, but honestly didn't watch it until just now. Still practicing and shouldn't even be here as much as I have this afternoon. But I"m curious now, having watched it. Do you know what the "inside joke" was at the end? Maybe Uni can enlighten us....if he returns.

I watched it. Are you referring to mailing complaints to Bishop Hansen? Or the way the woman looked? I think that's a pop cultural reference, not specifically Lutheran.

Hopefully he is just on a much needed coffee break and I'm just a 'this afternoon' fill in.

Ironically me and my pastor did go out for coffee to chat.

I can't even imagine how 'most here' would survive as much retaliation as he has had to deal with, being so out numbered.

It's not really dependent on me winning arguments. Just giving a witness to the hope that is in me and explaining our faith's ethical practices to the best of my ability.

There is bad blood between LCMS and ELCA, though it mostly exists in only certain parts of the country, and mostly its down to a certain camp of LCMS folks on the rightward end of the spectrum. The Robert Preus crowd that still resents what happened in St. Louis in the 70's, when thousands of LCMS began the march out of their church and eventually joined the ELCA due to academic persecution of religious modernism.

At one time in the 60's we were very close but as they say, familiarity breeds contempt.

 

[ubicaritas]

The ECLA holds to Augsburg?

Yes, though not in the same way necessarily the LCMS do. We see it as a true historical wittness to the Lutheran faith. We in the ELCA tend to follow a more liberal tone, that the confessions are not the final word on matters of theology or faith, but they articulate the historical doctrinal basis for Lutheranism.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

You sound like so many who have replace the Trinity of Father, Son, Holy Spirit with the Father, Son and Holy Bible. I'm talking about spoken words which I have heard and are as equal to scripture in my life as the book you think I should worship. I don't worship the written word I worship the living Word, but have the highest respect for the written book. I'm just not blind as to the tamperings of indoctrinated men who think their 'intellect' allows them to tweak what the dumb sheep read in order to keep them in line...for their own good of course. IOW the "word" that the 'bible' is speaking about is 'the word' men 'heard' and wrote down. The 'word' that proceeded FROM THE MOUTH of the Lord. and not the false pen of the scribes of indoctrinated men. You do know there were multiple OT denominations right? The Massorectic, Yahweist, and Deuteronomist scribes all tweaked to their indoctrinated denominational belief system for the 'sheep's' good also. Why do you think Jeremiah 8:8 is in the bible? I don't worship "the letter" I do worship the "living Word".

Hearing and learning and acting upon the Word of God is central to Christianity. It is in hearing the Word that God grants faith to His elect. (Romans 10:17: Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. ) It is in possession of this faith that we are declared righteous. (Romans 3:22: This righteousness is given through faith Jesus Christ to all who believe. In short it is how we are saved. Jesus also says ... Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. Hebrews 5:13-14
What may be very important to your faith life is the gift of distinguishing the spirits and that gift extends from the constant use of the Scriptures...every thought must align with the Scriptures. (somewhat sketchy, but I can expound for you if you wish...doubtful.

 

[ubicaritas]

You sound like so many who have replace the Trinity of Father, Son, Holy Spirit with the Father, Son and Holy Bible.

The fruit of biblical inerrancy debates we had among Lutherans years ago. WELS and LCMS have often doubled down on inerrancy to the point that the religion is now seemingly more about an infallible book than an infallible savior.

Jesus said many search the Scriptures in vain, but we agree with Jesus that the purpose of the Scriptures is to point to him.

You do know there were multiple OT denominations right? The Massorectic, Yahweist, and Deuteronomist scribes all tweaked to their indoctrinated denominational belief system for the 'sheep's' good also. Why do you think Jeremiah 8:8 is in the bible? I don't worship "the letter" I do worship the "living Word".

Good for you for discovering higher criticism. It's one difference that separates the ELCA from the LCMS. We accept it as a useful tool, the LCMS regards it as somehow endangering or threatening our faith.

We generally regard the OT as a human wittness to God's dealing with human beings, but he dealt with them through myths, religious aspirations, folklore, and prophetic visions and inspiration. But in Jesus we have something greater than any book, we have the heart and face of God, which not even Moses saw.

 

[Hillsage]

I watched it. Are you referring to mailing complaints to Bishop Hansen? Or the way the woman looked? I think that's a pop cultural reference, not specifically Lutheran.

It was a last comment past 'the end' scene. He says; "Has anyone told you you look like Andrian Door."???? My hearing is my DAV problem so I can't even swear to 'that' being what I heard. But it was at 3:20.

Ironically me and my pastor did go out for coffee to chat.

Maybe my prophetic sensitivity is coming back. It's been quite a while.

It's not really dependent on me winning arguments. Just giving a witness to the hope that is in me and explaining our faith's ethical practices to the best of my ability.

I always say it's good to have the 'opinion' that you are right, but it is bad to have the opinion that everyone else is WRONG! Some things are just better when 'caught' and not just 'taught'....I personally caught this lesson too many times before I quit dropping it.

 

[ubicaritas]

It was a last comment past 'the end' scene. He says; "Has anyone told you you look like Andrian Door."???? My hearing is my DAV problem so I can't even swear to 'that' being what I heard. But it was at 3:20.

I looked her up. She's a model that appears in "lad mags" like Maxim.

Maybe my prophetic sensitivity is coming back. It's been quite a while.

Yeah, I did think it was odd you knew exactly what I was up to.

BTW, coffee is the soma of Lutherans. We will even drink hot coffee when it's 90+ out in the middle of August in Florida.

 

[Hillsage]

The fruit of biblical inerrancy debates we had among Lutherans years ago. WELS and LCMS have often doubled down on inerrancy to the point that the religion is now seemingly more about an infallible book than an infallible savior.

The first century church did not have the NT that we have, but they certainly did have the Holy Spirit like the church doesn't have today. Even I as a Crazimatic look at the last 'move of God' as something that IMO isn't 'moving' anymore. I actually tried to change my 'affiliation' icon to non denominational, but can't find any way to do so. I just hope my wineskin remains pliable to receive His next 'outpouring' without blowing up.

Jesus said many search the Scriptures in vain, but we agree with Jesus that the purpose of the Scriptures is to point to him.

Yes they do. And 'that verse' actually want us to pursue them for the "eternal life" value of scripture. Yet here we are all muddled down dealing with the 'temporal' and ending up with way too much sour WhINE.

Good for you for discovering higher criticism. It's one difference that separates the ELCA from the LCMS. We accept it as a useful tool, the LCMS regards it as somehow endangering or threatening our faith.

If you knew me better, you just might not think too much of some of my 'higher criticism'.

But in Jesus we have something greater than any book, we have the heart and face of God, which not even Moses saw.

Reminds me of the story where the wise men appeared at the manger and mother Mary beckoned them closer. She gently pulled back the blanket and said; "LOOK!!....a BOOK."

I'm done. Eyes are not just old, but real tired of this screen.

 

[redleghunter]

True....I think. So, when man declares we have created LIFE in a test tube, what is the churches, or your, response to such claims?

Man should not be creating life in a test tube.

Total disaster.

 

[redleghunter]

Oh....Yeah...... I think I read that somewhere in the bible... Ya... God said in the book of neverland Chapter 0 verse 0.... and I quote:
Do whatever you think is best to balance the conflict because the world will change and My laws and commandments will be out of date some day. People will want to do things that I have commanded them not to do. So... when conflict arises... don't listen to your creator... do what you think will avoid conflict or persecution.... You wouldn't want to be persecuted for My sake..


Ya... sorry.. forgot all about God telling us to make up our own minds on moral issues, especially when it involves conflict, and to do whatever balances the interests... Sheesh.... what was I thinking.

Actually that is in the book of Hezekiah 7:14

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, though not in the same way necessarily the LCMS do. We see it as a true historical wittness to the Lutheran faith. We in the ELCA tend to follow a more liberal tone, that the confessions are not the final word on matters of theology or faith, but they articulate the historical doctrinal basis for Lutheranism.

So sort of kind of follow Augsburg. Ok.