Is the Fetus a Human Being?

[ubicaritas]

Luckily, we know what causes pregnancy...and how to avoid it.
But it's not selfish to kill a baby out of convenience?

I'm done debating this issue with you until you can learn some respect and compassion for women. I am willing to guess the overwhelming majority of women get abortions because they see no other choices. "Convenience" trivializes them.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm not quite sure Lutherans view it exactly in that manner. There are differences between Lutherans and the Reformed in how we view the Law. Jesus made satisfaction to God for sin by becoming an object of wrath, but that doesn't necessarily imply that God is a legalist. I am not an expert here I just know I've heard Pr. Fisk in that previous video explain that we see the law differently.

I really am not concerned with what Pr. Fisk has to say about it. Why don't you take a look at what is written in scripture about it:

Matthew 5:17-20
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Now, if you're a Christian of ANY denomination, this should mean something.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I'm done debating this issue with you until you can learn some respect and compassion for women. I am willing to guess the overwhelming majority of women get abortions because they see no other choices. "Convenience" trivializes them.

I'll take your feigned concern for "respect and compassion for women" when you stop advocating for butchering them inside the womb.

(half of all aborted babies are female)

 

[ubicaritas]

I'll take your feigned concern for "respect and compassion for women" when you stop advocating for butchering them inside the womb.

(half of all aborted babies are female)

It's not at all feigned concern. Stop assuming the worst in peoples motives, in our church that is considered a grave sin. I do not at all relish the idea of abortion but I relish controlling womens lives even less.

 

[ubicaritas]

I really am not concerned with what Pr. Fisk has to say about it. Why don't you take a look at what is written in scripture about it:

Matthew 5:17-20
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Now, if you're a Christian of ANY denomination, this should mean something.

I'm done arguing with you too then. If you refuse to engage in ideas you don't approve of, that's a sure sign I'm talking to a brick wall.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

You aren't my pastor, you have no spiritual relationship to me and we aren't even in communion with one another. So... whatever.

This is a misunderstanding of the body of Christ. There aren't lots of little separate churches all over the world - there is one church, and one body of Christ. Denominations and local buildings might be useful to seek out brethren with more specific doctrinal commonalities or to establish deeper relationships with a specific few, but they don't break the communion all Christians have in Christ, mean there is no relationship between distant believers, or exempt a Christian from any spiritual interaction with those outside their local church group.

It would be kind of like a cardiomyocyte telling an erythrocyte, "you aren't a fellow heart muscle cell! You aren't even the brain I take commands from. You can't just come through here and try delivering oxygen - what have I to do with you?" Or if Peter had told Paul, "You can't rebuke me or give me spiritual feedback, you aren't my Pastor and we hardly ever see each other. You don't go to my church group."

"Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many. Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body." I Cor 1:12-20

Eph 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.…"

Everyone serving Christ as master and having the indwelling Holy Spirit has a spiritual relationship with each other.

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." Jn 13:34-35

 

[ubicaritas]

This is a misunderstanding of the body of Christ. There aren't lots of little separate churches all over the world - there is one church, and one body of Christ. Denominations and local buildings might be useful to seek out brethren with more specific doctrinal commonalities or to establish deeper relationships with a specific few,

We do not necessarily confess the same faith merely because we call ourselves Christian and read the same Scriptures.

Do you acknowledge the Augsburg Confession as a true statement of what the Scriptures teach concerning salvation? If not, I have no business with you debating about what my religion does or does not teach. We have the catholic faith once delivered to the saints and attested by the Scriptures. We do not require your approval, or the approval of any other Christian, to validate it.

 

[Aldebaran]

It's not at all feigned concern. Stop assuming the worst in peoples motives, in our church that is considered a grave sin.

Amazing! Assuming the worst in a person's motives is a "grave sin" in your church, but your church doesn't think even less of killing a baby? I hope other Lutherans are willing to let us know if this is the case. It sure doesn't look good.

I do not at all relish the idea of abortion but I relish controlling womens lives even less.

Now "controlling a woman's life" is something you think is worse than killing a baby? Is life really that disposable to Lutherans???

 

[Phil 1:21]

It's not at all feigned concern. Stop assuming the worst in peoples motives, in our church that is considered a grave sin. I do not at all relish the idea of abortion but I relish controlling womens lives even less.

Is this the same church you that taught you “The ten commandments are a decent start for the bronze age as guidelines for living a moral life. They are not ethical absolutes.” (#435), that unborn babies are enemies to women’s health (#234) and killing them for population control (#415 & #430) and financial reasons is acceptable, and to ridicule parents grieving the loss of their child (#45 & #78)?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

It's not at all feigned concern. Stop assuming the worst in peoples motives, in our church that is considered a grave sin. I do not at all relish the idea of abortion but I relish controlling womens lives even less.

If a friend told you he was going to commit a murder, and his threat was credible, would you not inform the police because you relished 'controlling' a friend even less than you relished the idea of finding out the next day that he had indeed murdered someone?

I am a woman. For that matter, I'm a pregnant woman. No person is 'controlling' me - my own body and the unborn child are simply continuing in their natural biological functions. Even if it wasn't legal for me to get an abortion, that would hardly place a 'control' on me. It would be my body and the developing human inside me, not any outside factor, causing the pregnancy to move forward. My husband doesn't have to hold a gun on me, no one has to tie me down, etc.

The most you could say is that if abortion was illegal then I would be legally *prevented* from seeking a doctor to murder the human life inside me by the thread of legal sanctions and penalties. Human laws can be considered a form of control, I suppose, but it's a control God asks us to submit to and is ideally to protect the rights and good of the people. It is far different from any form of rights-violating control like slavery, kidnapping, dismemberment.

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 13:1-10

Ask yourself these questions:

- If abortion was illegal, would Christian women need to submit to the law or would the law be somehow unfairly controlling them?
- If the fulfillment of the law is love, then does murder support or oppose the law?
- Does abortion show equal love to the human child as it does to the mother?
- Is it truly loving to let a mother break the command of love and murder her child?
- Is an unborn child not a 'neighbor?'
- Is abortion not harmful to an unborn child?

 

[ubicaritas]

Is this the same church you that taught you “The ten commandments are a decent start for the bronze age as guidelines for living a moral life. They are not ethical absolutes.” (#435), that unborn babies are enemies to women’s health (#234) and killing them for population control (#415 & #430) and financial reasons is acceptable, and to ridicule parents grieving the loss of their child (#45 & #78)?

Those attitudes, if they are true and not misrepresentations (which I believe they are in fact), are my own. My church is not like the Vatican that demands we are all of one mind. We expect people to exercise personal moral agency and come to their own conclusions about conduct within their vocation in life.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Amazing! Assuming the worst in a person's motives is a "grave sin" in your church, but your church doesn't think even less of killing a baby? I hope other Lutherans are willing to let us know if this is the case. It sure doesn't look good.



Now "controlling a woman's life" is something you think is worse than killing a baby? Is life really that disposable to Lutherans???

I know many Lutherans, several in my own family. None of them espouse anything remotely as messed up as what is being promoted here.

 

[Aldebaran]

I know many Lutherans, several in my own family. None of them espouse anything remotely as messed up as what is being promoted here.

That's a relief!

 

[Aldebaran]

Those attitudes, if they are true and not misrepresentations (which I believe they are in fact), are my own. My church is not like the Vatican that demands we are all of one mind. We expect people to exercise personal moral agency and come to their own conclusions about conduct within their vocation in life.

Does your church ever read the scriptures?
Phillipians 2:2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

 

[ubicaritas]

I know many Lutherans, several in my own family. None of them espouse anything remotely as messed up as what is being promoted here.

They are probably not in the ELCA. Other Lutherans are more culturally conservative, almost as an unspoken doctrine.

I'm a critical thinker and make no bones about it. I may not be the best but at least I try to think beyond whatever cultural conservatives say I should believe to be a "decent human being" or a "Christian". I exercise personal moral agency, as my church teaches me to do so.

 

[Jon Osterman]

Amazing! Assuming the worst in a person's motives is a "grave sin" in your church, but your church doesn't think even less of killing a baby?

This sort of post is really out of line. No-one is encouraging the killing of "babies". An early stage foetus cannot be considered a "baby" and no-one would call it this unless they were trying to lie and deceive.

 

[Aldebaran]

They are probably not in the ELCA. Other Lutherans are more culturally conservative.

Good! We need more churches that teach the value of life, rather than of population control, and killing for the sake of convenience. Those would be churches that are more in line with the teachings of Christ rather than the teachings of men with their own ideas of what's right and wrong.

 

[Karin12414]

When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exodus 21: 22 - 25

Apparently, in God's eyes the fetus is not a human being. Therefore, the abortion is not the murder.

Joining the party late lol but my personal opinion is that it is a living baby. I personally would never have an abortion and am totally against it because God has a purpose for every person.

However, (preparing myself for the responses) I wouldn't take that right away from another woman. If she were to ask me for my advice, I would be open and honest with her about my beliefs and my stance on abortion, but I would also make it clear that I won't treat her any differently because of it. I can say that with 100% certainty because my cousin came to me about it and still went through with the abortion.

My heart cried out for the loss of the baby, but I didn't change my love for my cousin.

 

[Aldebaran]

This sort of post is really out of line. No-one is encouraging the killing of "babies". An early stage foetus cannot be considered a "baby" and no-one would call it this unless they were trying to lie and deceive.

Do you think a "fetus" and a baby only look alike out of sheer coincidence? https://geneticliteracyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/66d5a40a439bbc3f6ff0a27852d72bb3.jpg

 

[ubicaritas]

This sort of post is really out of line. No-one is encouraging the killing of "babies". An early stage foetus cannot be considered a "baby" and no-one would call it this unless they were trying to lie and deceive.

There's plenty of empty rhetoric, framing, and posturing like that though on the anti-abortion side of the debate.

I'm not so much pro-choice just pro-reality. I actually consider myself a non-ideologue. I think Cassey's verdict that fetal viability is a critical point is a good start to ending the debate among rational people about abortion. If a fetus can survive outside the womb then we start to have reasons to scrutinize the personal choice about abortion.

 

[Aldebaran]

If a fetus can survive outside the womb then we start to have reasons to scrutinize the personal choice about abortion.

Are you referring to when the baby is delivered at full-term, or when it is taken out of the womb ahead of time?