Tongues, a different view.

[Saint Steven]

I think we need to look at verse two in context.
Seems to me that it is being used as a "proof-text" to prop up a preconceived idea that is then being declared "the word of God", when it is not. It is an out-of-context misuse of the word of God. (dangerous territory)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Corinthians 14:1-5
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God.
Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.
The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,
unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Notice that verse 2 begins with the word "For". This points to the previous verse, as if to say, "Because..."

We are to eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. Because anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. And because they are not speaking to people, but to God, no one understands them. And if no one understands them then no one is edified. This is a problem for the church.

Notice that verse 3 begins with the word "But". This indicates a contrasting statement, as if to say, "On the other hand..."

On the other hand the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. (whereas the ones who speak in tongues only edify themselves) Therefore, anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Don't get me wrong, I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. Because, the one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. ​

Bottom line, prophecy is better for the church than tongues, unless someone interprets.

That's my read on this. ​

 

[1stcenturylady]

The law?
Part of receiving the Spirit?
How did you come to that conclusion?

They hadn't received the Spirit at all.

Read it again. I was referring to the Day of Pentecost.

 

[Saint Steven]

Read it again. I was referring to the Day of Pentecost.

You seem to have a talent for making the simplest things complicated and the clearest things opaque. Thanks.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You seem to have a talent for making the simplest things complicated and the clearest things opaque. Thanks.

That's because my mind doesn't settle. When I see a belief that goes contrary to scripture, I ask the Author for His interpretation. He must like those questions as He always answers.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's because my mind doesn't settle. When I see a belief that goes contrary to scripture, I ask the Author for His interpretation. He must like those questions as He always answers.

It must be very lonely in your own universe.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It must be very lonely in your own universe.

I know you mean that derogatorily, but in fact it is. If you only knew.

 

[Saint Steven]

I know you mean that derogatorily, but in fact it is. If you only knew.

Yes, I get the sense that you are distancing yourself from people with all your wild extrapolations and contrary presentations. The church is a body made of many parts. Come be a part of the body. (hug)

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, I get the sense that you are distancing yourself from people with all your wild extrapolations and contrary presentations. The church is a body made of many parts. Come be a part of the body. (hug)

Unfortunately, if I went for the biggest, I might start praying to Mary. The narrow way vs the wide road is not just in the world, but where God will first judge - His house.

 

[Saint Steven]

Unfortunately, if I went for the biggest, I might start praying to Mary. The narrow way vs the wide road is not just in the world, but where God will first judge - His house.

Heaven will be a very lonely place too. Just the four of you.
And all the angels, of course.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Heaven will be a very lonely place too. Just the four of you.
And all the angels, of course.

I sometimes feel like Paul with a thorn in the flesh. LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

I sometimes feel like Paul with a thorn in the flesh. LOL

Well, I guess we all have our cross to bear.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As I said, I believe the occurrences happened. But just as on the Day of Pentecost when each devout Jew HEARD them speak his own language (vs. 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?) and 3000 came to Christ, the miracle was in the hearing for the people, and the disciples spoke in tongues. BOTH.

This happened in Arizona. They were speaking in tongues, and a high school girl heard them speak in English. The ones speaking knew they weren't speaking English, but she swore they were. That is the gift of interpretation of tongues. It is very real.

I agree the word of God is not exhaustive. However, on the manifestations of the Spirit, regarding speech, it covers all the bases. What it doesn't cover are all the kinds of miracles that are from God. Especially now as we are very much in the last days. I believe Jesus spoke in the sandstorm, just as He did to Saul on the road to Damascus. It's in the Bible. However, I also believe the accounts of the miraculous during praise and worship regarding gold dust, gold teeth, gems, oil, feathers, and whatever other miracle God want to show us of His glory. Do you believe those happened?

I am beginning to think that when Paul spoke of the nine gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, he was speaking about gift headings in terms of tongues being the heading for different types of tongues, prophecy being different types of prophecy for different situations; different types of the word of knowledge, and so on. This means that there is no set hard and fast template for giving prophecies, but there is much freedom for moving in various ways in the prophetic.

The events where gold dust, gold teeth, gems, oil, feathers and other similar occurrences are out of my knowledge and experience, so I cannot comment on them. I have a limited frame of knowledge and so these things may happen outside of my small slice of everything that can be known of how the Holy Spirit moves among people.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I am beginning to think that when Paul spoke of the nine gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, he was speaking about gift headings in terms of tongues being the heading for different types of tongues, prophecy being different types of prophecy for different situations; different types of the word of knowledge, and so on. This means that there is no set hard and fast template for giving prophecies, but there is much freedom for moving in various ways in the prophetic.

The events where gold dust, gold teeth, gems, oil, feathers and other similar occurrences are out of my knowledge and experience, so I cannot comment on them. I have a limited frame of knowledge and so these things may happen outside of my small slice of everything that can be known of how the Holy Spirit moves among people.

You can see these things like gold dust, etc. on youtube, and there is one church here in my town where those things have happened regularly, but that was back in 2009. I don't know if it is still happening or not. But my missionary friend has had gold dust on her, and her son and his wife both have a gold tooth each show up in their mouths, and is still there. Personally, I've never witnessed anything, but would love to.

 

[ARBITER01]

The problem with that is that you would have to say that every single event where someone spoke in tongues and it was an understandable language was the result of a contrary spirit and not the Holy Spirit. We are not talking about our current period of time, but you need to refer to every single event in Church history when that happened.

Oscarr, I'm the one standing on what the word of GOD says and rejecting personal experiences. If you wish to elevate personal experiences over the word of GOD,... you also can be my guest in doing so.

 

[ARBITER01]

And that is what I've been saying happened on the Day of Pentecost. The disciples began speaking in tongues. And the devout Jews listening understood only by the gift of interpretation of tongues, not naturally. I'm not sure why you do not believe the gift of interpretation of tongues is not supernatural. Or do you not believe the disciples were speaking in tongues? There is a complete disconnect in what you are saying, making it very confusing. Let me ask direct questions.

On the Day of Pentecost:
1. Were the disciples speaking in tongues to God?

2. Were the disciples supernaturally speaking the languages of the people to the people, not to God?

3. Did the devout Jews gathered there hear their own language naturally?

4. Did the devout Jews gathered understand tongues by interpretation of tongues?

In other words, are you saying that on the Day of Pentecost no one was speaking in tongues and no one understood by interpretation of tongues? None of the gifts were present?

It would do you well to re-read what I have already posted (and actually read it all this time, no skipping around) and let it sink in before you post questions to me. I'm not going to repeat post myself on here just to answer your questions.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr, I'm the one standing on what the word of GOD says and rejecting personal experiences. If you wish to elevate personal experiences over the word of GOD,... you also can be my guest in doing so.

It all depends on your definition of "personal experiences". Moses had the personal experience of meeting God face to face in which God told him to write down what He told him. Joshua had the personal experience of meeting the captain of the host of the Lord when he first entered the promised land. Jacob had the personal experience of seeing the ladder going up into heaven with angels ascending and descending. He also had the experience of wrestling with someone whom he wouldn't let go until he blessed him. Realising that one is a sinner needing Jesus is a personal experience brought about by revelation from the Holy Spirit. Are these the personal experiences that you are referring to?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You can see these things like gold dust, etc. on youtube, and there is one church here in my town where those things have happened regularly, but that was back in 2009. I don't know if it is still happening or not. But my missionary friend has had gold dust on her, and her son and his wife both have a gold tooth each show up in their mouths, and is still there. Personally, I've never witnessed anything, but would love to.

Sometimes unusual events happen for which we have explanation. Secular people refer to things like that as a paranormal because they are real events that happen but without a rational explanation. As I have said before, the Bible is accurate in what it says, but there are many things about which it does not say. If we knew everything about life, the universe and everything, then we would be God, which we are not. In fact, the Bible gives us sufficient information for us to know who God is, and who we are. It also shows that history is following a definite course toward a definite conclusion - that we are not living in a state of chaos where anything goes.

 

[ARBITER01]

It all depends on your definition of "personal experiences". Moses had the personal experience of meeting God face to face in which God told him to write down what He told him. Joshua had the personal experience of meeting the captain of the host of the Lord when he first entered the promised land. Jacob had the personal experience of seeing the ladder going up into heaven with angels ascending and descending. He also had the experience of wrestling with someone whom he wouldn't let go until he blessed him. Realising that one is a sinner needing Jesus is a personal experience brought about by revelation from the Holy Spirit. Are these the personal experiences that you are referring to?

We also have The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul about "no one understands" the gift of tongues, so I'm not sure how a personal experience would override what GOD taught us through His apostle.

I'm not going to waste a lot of time on you Oscarr. We've had our conversations already from before.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We also have The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul about "no one understands" the gift of tongues, so I'm not sure how a personal experience would override what GOD taught us through His apostle.

I'm not going to waste a lot of time on you Oscarr. We've had our conversations already from before.

I'm avoiding conversations about the gift of tongues because as you are saying, we have raked over this ground ad nauseum and we have always ended up in a stalemate. But the personal experiences I am talking about are more wide ranging than just speaking in tongues.

 

[ARBITER01]

I think we need to look at verse two in context.
Seems to me that it is being used as a "proof-text" to prop up a preconceived idea that is then being declared "the word of God", when it is not. It is an out-of-context misuse of the word of God. (dangerous territory)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Corinthians 14:1-5
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God.
Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.
The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,
unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Notice that verse 2 begins with the word "For". This points to the previous verse, as if to say, "Because..."

We are to eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. Because anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. And because they are not speaking to people, but to God, no one understands them. And if no one understands them then no one is edified. This is a problem for the church.

Notice that verse 3 begins with the word "But". This indicates a contrasting statement, as if to say, "On the other hand..."

On the other hand the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. (whereas the ones who speak in tongues only edify themselves) Therefore, anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Don't get me wrong, I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. Because, the one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. ​

Bottom line, prophecy is better for the church than tongues, unless someone interprets.

That's my read on this. ​

The part that can escape people in the subject on this thread is the last verse...

1Co 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy according to this verse, and it's a key as to why Peter referred to prophecy in the OT scripture quote in acts 2. The gifts of tongues AND the gift of interpretation was being uttered by The Holy Spirit.