Tongues, a different view.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You know my position on this. I will go with scripture and not vary from it. I can do nothing else. Seeing as no man understands tongues 1 Corinthians 14:2, I have to ask how they understood. And the only answer is interpretation of tongues. And when I say this, someone always disagrees and says that's a gift only for believers. But how does the Spirit draw people? Is He in such a small box that He cannot use one of His own gifts to do the drawing?

I'm not saying your stories are false. I'm saying you are misunderstanding what gifts are being used and by whom. It was the same on the Day of Pentecost.

The reality is that what I have described actually happened and lives were changed and people received Christ as a result. Although the Scriptures are true and accurate, they are not exhaustive. If God decides to make a person's tongues understandable He can under the principles of His own sovereignty, and He is not acting in a way inconsistent with the written Scripture. You must realise that Luke's description of the Church in Acts, is just limited to his experience. While it is true, his description of the early Church is not exhaustive. How can it be unless he accompanied every Apostle who journeyed around the known world. So whatever could have happened in relation to the gift of tongues could have been out of Luke's knowledge and experience, and of yours.

There are many things that have happened that are not stated in the written New Testament. Take, for example, the event of a group of Christians fleeing an ISIS group intent of catching up with them and killing them. Suddenly there was an isolated sandstorm between ISIS and the Christians, and the voice of Jesus spoke out of it, "Why are you persecuting me?" This resulted in all but one of the ISIS group receiving Christ, and they were intent on getting the remaining guy saved as well. But there is no example of a sandstorm of that nature in the New Testament so do we doubt that as being of God?

 

[Saint Steven]

You're mixing things up.

When a Christian is born again, they are sealed with The Holy Spirit, just like scripture says. When a born again Christian takes a further step in faith and seeks the filling of The Holy Spirit afterwards, they also receive His gifts in the process. That has been the process for quite a long time as it is biblical.

The only time that this was not the norm for Christians was when The Lord Jesus decided to begin His church with the Jews, and then the Gentiles following. Both groups were born again and filled immediately afterwards, and thereby manifesting the gifts of The Spirit prior to water immersion or the laying on of hands.

Scripture only denotes these two specific instances, every other instance in our bible has a Christian requiring the laying on of hands to be filled, or it happening from GOD after being water immersed.

This was GOD's decision, and it was good.

The post you are quoting is only addressing what is said in Acts 2:38 in reference to what happened earlier in the chapter. It is a rebuttal to the theory that the "hearers" of tongues in Acts chapter two were manifesting spiritual gifts, when Peter indicates that they had not yet received the Spirit. Thanks.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The post you are quoting is only addressing what is said in Acts 2:38 in reference to what happened earlier in the chapter. It is a rebuttal to the theory that the "hearers" of tongues in Acts chapter two were manifesting spiritual gifts, when Peter indicates that they had not yet received the Spirit. Thanks.

Very true. They were unbelievers at that point, and it would only be when they received Christ that they could receive the Holy Spirit and be able to manifest the gifts.

 

[Saint Steven]

Very true. They were unbelievers at that point, and it would only be when they received Christ that they could receive the Holy Spirit and be able to manifest the gifts.

Exactly.
It's interesting to compare Acts chapter two with what happened at the house of Cornelius, in Acts chapters ten and eleven.

In acts chapter two Peter instructed them to be baptized in water and then receive the Spirit. In the house of Cornelius, they were instructed to be baptized in water, because they had already manifested the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If what is being claimed about "supernatural hearing" were true, Peter would likely have been aware of it and acted accordingly. That's not what we see. One can claim all they want about what is possible, but that is no basis for a doctrinal statement. Vain imaginings. (self-promotion) 2 Tim.4:3

 

[1stcenturylady]

The reality is that what I have described actually happened and lives were changed and people received Christ as a result. Although the Scriptures are true and accurate, they are not exhaustive. If God decides to make a person's tongues understandable He can under the principles of His own sovereignty, and He is not acting in a way inconsistent with the written Scripture. You must realise that Luke's description of the Church in Acts, is just limited to his experience. While it is true, his description of the early Church is not exhaustive. How can it be unless he accompanied every Apostle who journeyed around the known world. So whatever could have happened in relation to the gift of tongues could have been out of Luke's knowledge and experience, and of yours.

There are many things that have happened that are not stated in the written New Testament. Take, for example, the event of a group of Christians fleeing an ISIS group intent of catching up with them and killing them. Suddenly there was an isolated sandstorm between ISIS and the Christians, and the voice of Jesus spoke out of it, "Why are you persecuting me?" This resulted in all but one of the ISIS group receiving Christ, and they were intent on getting the remaining guy saved as well. But there is no example of a sandstorm of that nature in the New Testament so do we doubt that as being of God?

As I said, I believe the occurrences happened. But just as on the Day of Pentecost when each devout Jew HEARD them speak his own language (vs. 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?) and 3000 came to Christ, the miracle was in the hearing for the people, and the disciples spoke in tongues. BOTH.

This happened in Arizona. They were speaking in tongues, and a high school girl heard them speak in English. The ones speaking knew they weren't speaking English, but she swore they were. That is the gift of interpretation of tongues. It is very real.

I agree the word of God is not exhaustive. However, on the manifestations of the Spirit, regarding speech, it covers all the bases. What it doesn't cover are all the kinds of miracles that are from God. Especially now as we are very much in the last days. I believe Jesus spoke in the sandstorm, just as He did to Saul on the road to Damascus. It's in the Bible. However, I also believe the accounts of the miraculous during praise and worship regarding gold dust, gold teeth, gems, oil, feathers, and whatever other miracle God want to show us of His glory. Do you believe those happened?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Very true. They were unbelievers at that point, and it would only be when they received Christ that they could receive the Holy Spirit and be able to manifest the gifts.

They were devout Jews. They already loved God. It was only by the Holy Spirit drawing them in this way that they received Christ. Those whom He wasn't working in only mocked. They had no perception at all.

Just as those in ISIS could hear God's voice to them before being saved, don't think that the devout Jews must wait to hear God's voice to them through the unknown languages of the disciples speaking in tongues and understood by the gift of interpretation of tongues. The miraculous fell on all of them except the mockers who received nothing - just like mockers today.

 

[ARBITER01]

Although I agree most of your post, concerning the last paragraph, there is ample documentary evidence that when people have spoken in tongues it has been understood by the native speakers. It has happened twice in my own church - once when a friend of mind prayed in tongues in a prayer meeting and a Christian from Ghana understood it in his own village dialect. I prayed in tongues in a meeting, and a New Zealand Maori lady told me what I was saying, and I had not learned anything of that language at that time. So your comment is not supported by actual and documentary evidence. You may need to rethink your position.

I'll do nothing but abide by scripture on this Oscarr, as I always have. Personal experience has NEVER been greater than what scripture says, no matter what the circumstance may be.

When the word of GOD says that "no man understands" the language of the gift of tongues, that it is between you and GOD, and that it requires the gift of interpretation to understand, ....then that is exactly what The Holy Spirit meant!

The Holy Spirit certainly uses experiences in conjunction with the word of GOD to teach us truth, but not a single experience from Him will ever contradict what He said through our apostles. At no time will He ever do that. Period.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The post you are quoting is only addressing what is said in Acts 2:38 in reference to what happened earlier in the chapter. It is a rebuttal to the theory that the "hearers" of tongues in Acts chapter two were manifesting spiritual gifts, when Peter indicates that they had not yet received the Spirit. Thanks.

Receiving the Spirit is for more than gifts. Or is it that they hadn't received the gift of tongues that you are referring to? It is for the law to be written on their hearts.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'll do nothing but abide by scripture on this Oscarr, as I always have. Personal experience has NEVER been greater than what scripture says, no matter what the circumstance may be.

When the word of GOD says that "no man understands" the language of the gift of tongues, that it is between you and GOD, and that it requires the gift of interpretation to understand, ....then that is exactly what The Holy Spirit meant!

The Holy Spirit certainly uses experiences in conjunction with the word of GOD to teach us truth, but not a single experience from Him will ever contradict what He said through our apostles. At no time will He ever do that. Period.

I'm not sure if you and I believe the same, but I believe on the Day of Pentecost the devout Jews who heard the disciples speaking in tongues, were supernaturally able to understand in their own language by the gift of interpretation of tongues used to draw them by the same Holy Spirit who owns the gift.

No matter how many contradict scripture throughout church history, the word of God stands unchanged.

 

[ARBITER01]

The post you are quoting is only addressing what is said in Acts 2:38 in reference to what happened earlier in the chapter. It is a rebuttal to the theory that the "hearers" of tongues in Acts chapter two were manifesting spiritual gifts, when Peter indicates that they had not yet received the Spirit. Thanks.

His response to those who asked "what shall we do" was in agreement with what Jesus told them beforehand,..

Act 1:5 for John indeed baptized in water, but you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days after.”

"Ye must be born again" to receive the "gift" of The Holy Spirit, ie. be sealed with The Holy Spirit by being immersed into the forgiveness of your sins.

This is reiterated by The Holy Spirit through Paul in another section of scripture..

Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,––in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The filling of The Spirit with the accompanying "gifts" follows afterwards in scripture, but in the case of the Jewish apostles and Cornelius's Gentile household, it happened immediately afterwards, before they were water immersed, but it's the only two cases of it happening this way. That was GOD's decision, and it is good.

Proper teaching utilizes scripture agreeing with scripture.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm not sure if you and I believe the same, but I believe on the Day of Pentecost the devout Jews who heard the disciples speaking in tongues, were supernaturally able to understand in their own language by the gift of interpretation of tongues used to draw them by the same Holy Spirit who owns the gift.

No matter how many contradict scripture throughout church history, the word of God stands unchanged.

Amen on that last part Sister!

The gift of interpretation uses human languages so that we can understand what was being uttered by The Holy Spirit,...... so it stands to reason that they heard our apostles "speaking" in different languages to convey the message The Holy Spirit was giving to the different people in the crowd.

This is verified by Peter...

Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:

Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy in the corporate setting...

1Co 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

It's a common mistake by many. People seem to not realize that the "gifts" plural, were poured out that day, not just the basic gift of tongues. I hope that is helpful.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Amen on that last part Sister!

The gift of interpretation uses human languages so that we can understand what was being uttered by The Holy Spirit,...... so it stands to reason that they heard our apostles "speaking" in different languages to convey the message The Holy Spirit was giving to the different people in the crowd.

This is verified by Peter...



Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy in the corporate setting...



It's a common mistake by many. People seem to not realize that the "gifts" plural, were poured out that day, not just the basic gift of tongues. I hope that is helpful.

To be honest, I'm not sure if you agree with me or not. Do you believe the devout Jews listening understood by the gift of Interpretation of Tongues, or do you believe as Oscarr and Steven do that they for some inexplicable reason understood the tongues that "no man can understands," making Paul a liar. To me they believe a complete contradiction and refuse to uphold the written word. "God is not a man that He should lie."

 

[ARBITER01]

To be honest, I'm not sure if you agree with me or not. Do you believe the devout Jews listening understood by the gift of Interpretation of Tongues, or do you believe as Oscarr and Steven do that they for some inexplicable reason understood the tongues that no man can understand. To me they believe a complete contradiction and refuse to uphold the written word.

I don't take any sides.

The gift of tongues is not in an understandable human language, the gift of interpretation is, in fact, it can be in any human language.

The gifts of The Holy Spirit were poured out onto the newly blood bought Christians, and of the 120 there, an amount of them were giving utterance by The Holy Spirit with the gift of interpretation. The unbelievers around them heard them "speaking" in human languages, this was The Holy Spirit uttering in human languages what the other believers uttering in tongues were saying.

Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy in the corporate setting.

This was the new church, the brand new body of Christ in a corporate setting.

To be more direct, the gift of tongues requires the gift of interpretation for understanding. Without another believer uttering by The Holy Spirit the understanding of the message in human languages, it has no meaning. There is no supernatural understanding/hearing given by GOD with His gifts. It has to be by utterance of The Holy Spirit.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I don't take any sides.

The gift of tongues is not in an understandable human language, the gift of interpretation is, in fact, it can be in any human language.

The gifts of The Holy Spirit were poured out onto the newly blood bought Christians, and of the 120 there, an amount of them were giving utterance by The Holy Spirit with the gift of interpretation. The unbelievers around them heard them "speaking" in human languages, this was The Holy Spirit uttering in human languages what the other believers uttering in tongues were saying.

Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy in the corporate setting.

This was the new church, the brand new body of Christ in a corporate setting.

To be more direct, the gift of tongues requires the gift of interpretation for understanding. Without another believer uttering by The Holy Spirit the understanding of the message in human languages, it has no meaning. There is no supernatural understanding/hearing given by GOD with His gifts. It has to be by utterance of The Holy Spirit.

Then I alone will stand on the word of God. You can make up your fairy tales if you wish.

 

[ARBITER01]

Then I alone will stand on the word of God. You can make up your fairy tales if you wish.

The bible is clear on this, no one understands the gift of tongues without the gift of interpretation, and that gift of interpretation is done by the utterance of The Holy Spirit, not supernatural hearing.

If you want to call that a fairy tale in front of everyone, be my guest.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The bible is clear on this, no one understands the gift of tongues without the gift of interpretation, and that gift of interpretation is done by the utterance of The Holy Spirit, not supernatural hearing.

If you want to call that a fairy tale in front of everyone, be my guest.

And that is what I've been saying happened on the Day of Pentecost. The disciples began speaking in tongues. And the devout Jews listening understood only by the gift of interpretation of tongues, not naturally. I'm not sure why you do not believe the gift of interpretation of tongues is not supernatural. Or do you not believe the disciples were speaking in tongues? There is a complete disconnect in what you are saying, making it very confusing. Let me ask direct questions.

On the Day of Pentecost:
1. Were the disciples speaking in tongues to God?

2. Were the disciples supernaturally speaking the languages of the people to the people, not to God?

3. Did the devout Jews gathered there hear their own language naturally?

4. Did the devout Jews gathered understand tongues by interpretation of tongues?

In other words, are you saying that on the Day of Pentecost no one was speaking in tongues and no one understood by interpretation of tongues? None of the gifts were present?

 

[Saint Steven]

Receiving the Spirit is for more than gifts. Or is it that they hadn't received the gift of tongues that you are referring to? It is for the law to be written on their hearts.

The law?
Part of receiving the Spirit?
How did you come to that conclusion?

They hadn't received the Spirit at all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'll do nothing but abide by scripture on this Oscarr, as I always have. Personal experience has NEVER been greater than what scripture says, no matter what the circumstance may be.

When the word of GOD says that "no man understands" the language of the gift of tongues, that it is between you and GOD, and that it requires the gift of interpretation to understand, ....then that is exactly what The Holy Spirit meant!

The Holy Spirit certainly uses experiences in conjunction with the word of GOD to teach us truth, but not a single experience from Him will ever contradict what He said through our apostles. At no time will He ever do that. Period.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The problem with that is that you would have to say that every single event where someone spoke in tongues and it was an understandable language was the result of a contrary spirit and not the Holy Spirit. We are not talking about our current period of time, but you need to refer to every single event in Church history when that happened.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Receiving the Spirit is for more than gifts. Or is it that they hadn't received the gift of tongues that you are referring to? It is for the law to be written on their hearts.

The bottom line is this: The Holy Spirit comes with His tools of trade. The only substantive evidence of the presence of the Spirit is the manifestation of the gifts as stated in 1 Corinthians 12. Without those manifestations, one cannot prove that the Holy Spirit is present.

Many churches will not accept the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit and they are expecting the Spirit to work with them without Him using his tools. It is the same as you saying to the guy who comes to lay your carpet that he can do it but he is not allowed to use his tools to do it. How is he going to lay the carpet then? By magic? In the same way you tell the mechanic to fix your car but he cannot use his tools. Does that sound ridiculous to you? It does to me.

Therefore, expecting the Holy Spirit to work in our churches but not allowing Him to use His tools of trade (prophecy, healing, working of miracles, discerning of spirits, acts of extraordinary faith, tongues and interpretation, words of knowledge and wisdom) then we are expecting Him to achieve His results by some kind of magic. It is no wonder that there is no evidence of the Spirit working in many churches. If there was no Holy Spirit, most churches would carry on with their three hymns and sermon without any changes. If the Early Church functioned like our modern western churches, we wouldn't have any Christianity today. It would not have survived the Roman Empire and its strong pagan influence.

Actually, that is why churches in the western world are declining, and neo-paganism is reasserting itself again.