Is it moral?

[OldWiseGuy]

Lets explore this further...

What is God's ultimate definition of 'sin'?

Does lack in belief, due to an earnest claimed insufficient amount of evidence in existence, constitute a 'sin'?

Can one truly 'choose' or 'will' one's self in what they believe earnestly and truthfully? If so, this must mean I can 'will' myself to believe I'm a superhero.

If a non-denominational Christian goes door-to-door, and a life-long Hindu opens the door, and the Christian presents John 3:16-21 to this individual, and the Hindu states, "no thanks, I already believe in Vishnu, but thanks anyways," Is Yahweh sending such an individual to heaven or not? If not, then please tell me how (my) definition of belief provided does not correlate?

Thank you

I think you are arguing for 'argument's sake'. God, through the Holy Spirit calls those who he desires, to belief, repentance, and conversion. Most resist the call and are not chosen however. This is not as complicated as you are making it out to be.

 

[cvanwey]

I think you are arguing for 'argument's sake'. God, through the Holy Spirit calls those who he desires, to belief, repentance, and conversion. Most resist the call and are not chosen however. This is not as complicated as you are making it out to be.

That's funny, I hear the same exact response from opposing faiths Oh, that's right.... They are all actually hearing 'the call' from 'Jesus'. Some are just confused of which claimed actual God the request originates.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's funny, I hear the same exact response from opposing faiths Oh, that's right.... They are all actually hearing 'the call' from 'Jesus'. Some are just confused of which claimed actual God the request originates.

There's no question who is doing the calling if you are a descendant of Israel: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" -Jesus.

I am descended from Benjamin (Norway), Zebulon (Holland/Belgium), Ephraim (England).

People usually respond to the one who calls them. If your mother calls you on the phone you don't say "Oh, hello Fred".

 

[cvanwey]

There's no question who is doing the calling if you are a descendant of Israel: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" -Jesus.

I am descended from Benjamin (Norway), Zebulon (Holland/Belgium), Ephraim (England).

People usually respond to the one who calls them. If your mother calls you on the phone you don't say "Oh, hello Fred".

So I'm sure remote tribes in Africa, whom have no prior knowledge of Jesus are then waking up in the middle of the night stating, "Hey, I just received a response from this spirit named Jesus? He states He's the Messiah and wants me to follow Him?"

Okay, back to the OP now....

Without a presuppositional belief in the specific selected God, one cannot apply faith, love, intention, repentance, etc to such entities (the cornerstone to heaven vs. hell equals belief). You must first select your poison. Morals are devoid from such processes, in reference to Christianity. Belief is neither moral nor immoral.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Belief is neither moral nor immoral.

Belief leads one to a more moral life. All have sinned and will sin until death, but sin can be repented of. Once a believer stops believing they can be in real trouble (depending on the depth of their belief. See supporting scriptures).

 

[cvanwey]

Belief leads one to a more moral life. All have sinned and will sin until death, but sin can be repented of. Once a believer stops believing they can be in real trouble (depending on the depth of their belief. See supporting scriptures).

Negative sir...

All devout Christians will 'sin' no matter what. It's the belief which drives the salvation (i.e) gateway to heaven, according the scripture.

Meaning, a 'Muslim' and a 'Christian' will still tell lies, steal, commit adultery, trespass, etc.. If the Muslim does it less, would it matter? No. Hence, morality really becomes irrelevant. The Muslim will ask for repentance to a differing believed entity. So it's the belief in the 'wrong God' which drives the destination of hell, not 'sin', or lack there-of....

Circling back to the initial post... Does lack in belief to the 'proper' God constitute a 'sin'? Because at the end of the day, believing in the wrong God results in damnation, according to Biblical scripture.

 

[Holoman]

Being a Muslim doesn't mean one can't be saved, same goes for Jews etc. Think of all the old testament prophets who had never heard of Jesus. Even the Roman Catholic Church believes one is judged only on the knowledge they have available to them.

It is not simply a belief that Jesus is the son of God that saves someone, even Satan believes its true, it is putting your faith in him. Once you do that, you will follow his commandments, though not always successfully, and live a Christian life, not to earn points to be saved, but because you have faith that God knows what's best for you

 

[cvanwey]

Being a Muslim doesn't mean one can't be saved, same goes for Jews etc. Think of all the old testament prophets who had never heard of Jesus. Even the Roman Catholic Church believes one is judged only on the knowledge they have available to them.

Off topic, but I must reply...

Then why proselytize? The less who know, the more 'guaranteed' souls whom reach heaven. Chances are greater that more would enter Yahweh's heaven, if what you state may be true. If one strives to be a 'good' person, and happens to follow 'the golden rule', doesn't murder, doesn't steal, doesn't commit adultery, etc., but somehow has never heard of Jesus, I guess this individual is going to heaven? On the flip side, they most likely believe in an alternative God. So changing their mind, by the attempted proselytizing of Christianity may actually introduce their invitation to hell (because now "they are without excuse.")

So I guess such individuals might be advised never to answer their doors, just in case

It is not simply a belief that Jesus is the son of God that saves someone, even Satan believes its true, it is putting your faith in him. Once you do that, you will follow his commandments, though not always successfully, and live a Christian life, not to earn points to be saved, but because you have faith that God knows what's best for you

Without first believing in Christ, such an individual would not have any regard for such stated commandments. They may coincidentally follow some of them though... So the presuppositional belief must come first

So is lack in belief a sin, do to stated insufficient evidence? If so, is it worthy of a disallowance to heaven?

 

[Holoman]

Off topic, but I must reply...

Then why proselytize? The less who know, the more 'guaranteed' souls whom reach heaven.

A couple of reasons. Firstly it was commanded by Jesus, therefore we are obligated to do it to some degree. Secondly, it's a very positive message, that the creator of the universe came in human form to die a horrific death and share in our suffering. That he is offering us eternal life in communion with him and all that is good and all we have to do is put our faith in him.

Chances are greater that more would enter Yahweh's heaven, if what you state may be true.

I'll need to see your evidence or argument for this, because that seems far outside of our cognitive ability to know

If one strives to be a 'good' person, and happens to follow 'the golden rule', doesn't murder, doesn't steal, doesn't commit adultery, etc., but somehow has never heard of Jesus, I guess this individual is going to heaven?

Quite possibly, I can't judge.

On the flip side, they most likely believe in an alternative God.

Not necessarily. They may just believe in a creator, doesn't really matter what name they call him.

So changing their mind, by the attempted proselytizing of Christianity may actually introduce their invitation to hell (because now "they are without excuse.")

I think you'd have to show that there exist people that would have been saved had they never been preached the gospel. I can't see how it's possible to show, it's purely hypothetical. God (assuming middle knowledge) could quite easily arrange for such people to live in places where they will never hear the Gospel.

So I guess such individuals might be advised never to answer their doors, just in case



Without first believing in Christ, such an individual would not have any regard for such stated commandments. They may coincidentally follow some of them though... So the presuppositional belief must come first

So is lack in belief a sin, do to stated insufficient evidence? If so, is it worthy of a disallowance to heaven?

I'm not sure I agree there exist people without sufficient evidence that God exists. I look around me and I see it everywhere. The law and order in the universe is obvious evidence to me. And to link this back to the topic, everyone has committed sins in life that God cannot tolerate being a perfectly good being. He offers us a hand to save us from punishment without demanding anything of us other than to love him and each other. Those that don't take the hand are left to the inevitable consequences of their own choices.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

All devout Christians will 'sin' no matter what. It's the belief which drives the salvation (i.e) gateway to heaven, according the scripture.

Not quite. As has been noted even the demons "believe". Belief has to lead to righteousness. Consider a 'life guard' observing a person flailing in the water, and musing, "I believe that person is going to drown." Faith (Christian belief) is useless without deeds", so says James. Belief is like 'openers' in poker; you can't continue without it, and you must continue, or fold.

 

[cfyahoo08]

It appears that if they do not have Christ, they will pay heavily for those sins.
M-Bob

Christ's sacrifice paid that price for all, his sacrifice is not ONLY for the "Christian" it is for all, he paid the price for ALL. We need only open the door and do our part.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Christ's sacrifice paid that price for all, his sacrifice is not ONLY for the "Christian" it is for all, he paid the price for ALL. We need only open the door and do our part.

Say what?

Ones going to the hot place do not have their sins paid for.

Best not to confuse people, especially the non-believers.

M-Bob

÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷

You mentioned do our part.
That right there sounds like works.

 

[cfyahoo08]

Say what?

Ones going to the hot place do not have their sins paid for.

Best not to confuse people, especially the non-believers.

M-Bob

÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷

You mentioned do our part.
That right there sounds like works.

James 1:27 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. please read the story on the link

https://wokokon.com/push-ups-for-doughnuts/

 

[Mountainmanbob]

please read the story on the link

https://wokokon.com/push-ups-for-doughnuts/

I breezed through it but, that was a waste of my time.

Talking about Jesus and donuts in the same story just don't do it for me -- up top the mountain Bob

 

[Dave-W]

Ones going to the hot place do not have their sins paid for.

I realize that is what Calvinism teaches, (limited atonement) but the bible teaches that He died for all.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I realize that is what Calvinism teaches, (limited atonement) but the bible teaches that He died for all.

Keep reading he said that He came for His sheep.

Are you saying that ones in hell have their sins paid for?

M-Bob

 

[Dave-W]

Are you saying that ones in hell have their sins paid for?

Yes, with out a doubt. They just never accessed that by repenting and believing the Gospel.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Yes, with out a doubt. They just never accessed that by repenting and believing the Gospel.

I agree that may be part of it but, why did Jesus not ask of Nicodemus to do those things?

Jesus told Nicodemus, it's like the wind you have no control over it.

M-Bob

 

[Jack Slatts]

Is it moral to torture someone for eternity because of finite crimes?

No, of course not. Mankind has progressed far beyond this.

 

[cvanwey]

Not quite. As has been noted even the demons "believe". Belief has to lead to righteousness. Consider a 'life guard' observing a person flailing in the water, and musing, "I believe that person is going to drown." Faith (Christian belief) is useless without deeds", so says James. Belief is like 'openers' in poker; you can't continue without it, and you must continue, or fold.

So if someone says, 'hey, I'm gonna follow the teachings of Jesus because I agree with most of his teachings, but I think he was a mortal, and do NOT believe he is a Messiah."

Heaven or hell?