Does this scripture refute OSAS? [Updated]

[bcbsr]

All the elect endure to the end by Gods grace. Only true believers are the elect in Christ. What you speak of are tares among the wheat (true believers). Pretenders and false professors are apostates and tares among the visible church. And warnings in scripture are to encourage true believers of their leaven and to call to repentance these tares. 1 John 2:19 is obvious that they were NEVER among the elect in Christ. Because if they had been they would’ve remained in the faith. But they were made manifest to the church that they were imposters. Only a tare would take the mark. By promoting loss of salvation, you therefore promote that your works maintains your salvation. There’s no Christ nor gospel in this false teaching

Excellent! That's just what I've been saying as well. Another supporting verse:

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, (Notice the tense)

 

[Dan the deacon]

What does repentance mean ? Does it mean that somebody sinned and is feeling guilty and want to make up for such mistake ?

Repentance mean turning around and going in the opposite direction. The proper direction.

 

[bcbsr]

Using 1 John 2 19 does not prove OSAS. What about 1 Timothy 4:1 that says some will DEPART from faith. OSAS supporters, especially Calvinists, who say that people who seem to have departed from the faith were never really in the faith, don't realize its like saying that you have departed from Miami when you have never been to Miami. How can you have departed from Miami when you have never really been there to begin with?

First, 1John 2:19 does prove OSAS, as I have shown. You have provided no contrary evidence.
As for 1Tim 4:1, it's consistent with 1John 2:19
How would John evaluate those who depart from the faith? Gee I think he would say, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 In fact that's what he did say.

John sees people departing from the faith, and what is his conclusion? That they were never really of the faith to begin with. He then states his assumption - which becomes doctrinal truth - that those who are really of the faith never leave it. Again consistent with other verses like Heb 3:14 "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." (Notice the tense).

Not just OSAS has consequently been proven, but also the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints advocated by Calvinism. And this contrary to those who make false accusations saying the such a gospel leads people to sin.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Interesting coincidence just happend . I made myself sandwich and went back to pc and was like " let's google devolve definition was wondering if such word exist and if it's opposite to evolve and found the definition "pass into (a different state, especially a worse one); degenerate. " . Then I ate my sandwich and checked the new posts and your post had the word devolve in it strange it is isn't it ?

I think you are right about the season for everything . Sometimes it's good to just have your mouth shut and don't bother other times to speak up .

Yes devolve means to degenerate basically.. it's pretty awesome how the Holy Spirit will bring something to mind at just the right time! Love it..

 

[Chinchilla]

Repentance mean turning around and going in the opposite direction. The proper direction.

You activated my trap . Now defend yourself explaining why God was going in wrong direction in first place so he had to repent from it .

Exodus 32:14
“And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.”

Amos 7:3
“The Lord repented for this. It shall not be, saith the Lord.”

Genesis 6:6
“And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieued him at his heart.”

 

[marineimaging]

No. I don't know. (in your area what is language/ meant by "preacher")
(how many you know ? see ? hear ? learn from ? )

Most are. (not all). "Preaching" for religious system, money, fame, celebrity, show, .....

instead of as written "CHRIST CRUCIFIED" (the real true good news message in SCRIPTURE). ( AND RESURRECTED NEVER TO DIE AGAIN ! )

Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



Why do we think Jesus said daily to pray

Matthew 6
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.





We forget there are many Scriptures where the prophets told people what they wanted to hear , we are no different . Why on earth would any do anything if they thought OSAS.
Thanks for question

I don't know about anybody else but I find it so much easier to forgive a huge trespass than I do a minor one. My brother died on the side of the highway. Another man came along and took his truck and pushed his body over to the passenger side and took his body to the river and dumped him after stealing everything from his pants and shirt. He then drove around and sold it all for drug money. He was caught by midnight because my other brother was a chief of police and had some pull with the other city. The man lied about what happened to my brother for two hours until he confessed and told them where he was. I found it easier to forgive him, than the judge who refused the felony charges against him and let a six time loser go free after a short stay in jail. Wait, that isn't a lesser crime nor is it much of a minor trespass. Hummm. I guess I need to work on it some more. No kidding. I though I had forgiven the judge but maybe I haven't. Y'all pray for me, please. I need to seriously work on forgiving the judge. The man I did. The judge, not so. I guess we all need help in that area. Don't we?

 

[Chinchilla]

I don't know about anybody else but I find it so much easier to forgive a huge trespass than I do a minor one. My brother died on the side of the highway. Another man came along and took his truck and pushed his body over to the passenger side and took his body to the river and dumped him after stealing everything from his pants and shirt. He then drove around and sold it all for drug money. He was caught by midnight because my other brother was a chief of police and had some pull with the other city. The man lied about what happened to my brother for two hours until he confessed and told them where he was. I found it easier to forgive him, than the judge who refused the felony charges against him and let a six time loser go free after a short stay in jail. Wait, that isn't a lesser crime nor is it much of a minor trespass. Hummm. I guess I need to work on it some more. No kidding. I though I had forgiven the judge but maybe I haven't. Y'all pray for me, please. I need to seriously work on forgiving the judge. The man I did. The judge, not so. I guess we all need help in that area. Don't we?

What was the cause of your brother death . Heart attack , drugs ?

You are strong with the forgiving I had image of impaling slowly that judge while reading this for that crime but there are worse ones like Police pointing guns on kids ect . Maybe your brother was still alive and the robber just finished the job .
Strange world

The worst tresspassers to figvie are the ones in which cases you should seek vengeance but you take the control of vengeance and replace it for something better like Jesus .

 

[marineimaging]

What was the cause of your brother death . Heart attack , drugs ?

You are strong with the forgiving I had image of impaling slowly that judge while reading this for that crime but there are worse ones like Police pointing guns on kids ect . Maybe your brother was still alive and the robber just finished the job .
Strange world

My brother had a heart attack in the Army and was forced out on a Medical Discharge. He eventually got back enough of his health to work for the police department for about 10 years and then went into private security and then finally had to take a full medical retirement because of his heart. My dad had one, and I had one too. It is genetic. I started to tell a lot more about him but let's suffice it to say he never took drugs. Didn't drink (except diet Coke). What killed him was a heat index of 105 degrees, which feels like 120 degrees to a heart patient under exertion, and changing a flat tire on his boat trailer in a hurry because he was late for a meeting with our brother in law. He was 58 and a good man. He loved the Lord and would not have gone a day without saying something good about living as a Christian.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I don't know about anybody else but I find it so much easier to forgive a huge trespass than I do a minor one. My brother died on the side of the highway. Another man came along and took his truck and pushed his body over to the passenger side and took his body to the river and dumped him after stealing everything from his pants and shirt. He then drove around and sold it all for drug money. He was caught by midnight because my other brother was a chief of police and had some pull with the other city. The man lied about what happened to my brother for two hours until he confessed and told them where he was. I found it easier to forgive him, than the judge who refused the felony charges against him and let a six time loser go free after a short stay in jail. Wait, that isn't a lesser crime nor is it much of a minor trespass. Hummm. I guess I need to work on it some more. No kidding. I though I had forgiven the judge but maybe I haven't. Y'all pray for me, please. I need to seriously work on forgiving the judge. The man I did. The judge, not so. I guess we all need help in that area. Don't we?

There is no real "major" or "minor".. all sin is sinning against God. The only major or minor is in our own heads really..

But it's not forgiveness that your in mind of, but angry there was no justice to your thinking.

The thing is, Romans 13:1 states there is no ruler that is not established by God. God is sovereign over all things. What you need to worry more about, is submitting to God's will yourself.

We don't always know why God allows a thing to happen, but what our place in it is to realize God is in control, and submit to that control wholly.

There is where you will find forgiveness, when you realize all that I said is true.

Another's sin is not different than your own sin, and desiring God forgive you but not forgive another is morally wrong.

And all things are in God's Hand (meaning His power and control) Some people get their reward for any good they did in this life and Gods justice in the next, and some people get forgiveness so they can go on to be saved, others get punished here..

You just never know what God is doing.. but it's all Good.

 

[marineimaging]

What was the cause of your brother death . Heart attack , drugs ?

You are strong with the forgiving I had image of impaling slowly that judge while reading this for that crime but there are worse ones like Police pointing guns on kids ect . Maybe your brother was still alive and the robber just finished the job .
Strange world

The worst tresspassers to figvie are the ones in which cases you should seek vengeance but you take the control of vengeance and replace it for something better like Jesus .

I thought of that way too many times. But there was nothing in evidence that said so. I had to leave it as it was. Had the DA/judge not told the chief investigator he wasn't going to accept the felony charges there might have been more discovered. But, to be honest I can't go around living with anger and unforgiveness in my heart. It is too time consuming and too detrimental to being a good Christian. It is not what Jesus told us to do. It is not our call. I am not saying it is easy, but my life takes on a different path if I forgive a person than if I hold their sins against them. And I apologize for getting off point with the OP. Sorry about that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're confused. I don't see where I'm agree with you. What John is stating should be clear enough to you.
If they had belonged to us (ONCE SAVED)
They would have remained with us (ALWAYS SAVED)

As another poster pointed out, just because some chickens can lay brown eggs, that does not mean all chickens lay brown eggs. You are trying to make those who were trying to seduce the brethren as being representative of all people when this is clearly not the case (When we look at the rest of Scripture). For if you were to read other verses in Scripture it clearly teaches that we have to pick up our cross and deny ourselves (for he that shall lose his life shall save it) (Matthew 16:24), keep the commands to enter into life (Matthew 19:17), Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14), For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Romans 8:13).

Okay. Why would Jesus say for us to pick up our cross and deny ourselves as a part of losing our life to save it if it is just some kind of automatic thing all true Christians will do?

Why would Jesus tell us to keep the commandments as part of entering into life if this is something that is automatic for all true Christians will do?

Why are we told to follow peace and holiness (of which no man shall see the Lord) if it is some kind of automatic thing that all Christians will do?

Why are we told that if we live after the flesh we will die and if we live after the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the body we shall live? This sounds like we are given a choice in Romans 8:13.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As 1John 2:19 states, those who belong to Christ do endure to the end. As is also stated in Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Using basic reading comprehension skills, notice the tense. If you can't grasp the implication I can't help you.

I already addressed 1 John 2:19 several times already.

Also, you quote another verse that actually refutes what you said about how all true believers will automatically do the things of God (in time I assume).

Hebrews 3:14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Notice the word "IF" in there.

It says we are made partakers of Christ IF.... then it lists a condition. That condition is IF we hold from the beginning our condifence stedfast unto the end.

So this promise is not made to Christians who will automatically do these things outside of their control because God has taken over. We still have free will after we have come to the faith. If this was not the case, then why even live out this life? What are we here for if God is just pulling our strings?

 

[SaintCody777]

First, 1John 2:19 does prove OSAS, as I have shown. You have provided no contrary evidence.
As for 1Tim 4:1, it's consistent with 1John 2:19
How would John evaluate those who depart from the faith? Gee I think he would say, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 In fact that's what he did say.

John sees people departing from the faith, and what is his conclusion? That they were never really of the faith to begin with. He then states his assumption - which becomes doctrinal truth - that those who are really of the faith never leave it. Again consistent with other verses like Heb 3:14 "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." (Notice the tense).

Not just OSAS has consequently been proven, but also the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints advocated by Calvinism. And this contrary to those who make false accusations saying the such a gospel leads people to sin.

Paul in 1 John 2:18-19 at that area is warning people of antichrists who are coming to deceive true believers. The "they" in 1 John 2:19 refers to the antichrists, in other words, the heretics are not on the side of the true fold, the church. So Paul never said there that believers left because they were never really part of the fold. For this reason, he is warning in this passage about antichrists who come to deceive true believers from the flock.

 

[JIMINZ]

I noticed in your response that you completed skipped over explaining Rom 8:13. In order to maintain your support of OSAS, you would have to reconcile that particular verse with your view. How would you do so when Paul warns the brethren that the consequence of living according to the flesh is spiritual death?

.
Well, I had noticed you only Posted Rom. 8:13 to make your point, and thereby skipping over all of the verses which make the context for that averse, therefore I posted the whole Context in which your one verse was spoken, so that you, as well as everyone else could judge the validity of you argument, I was not skipping anything, the 8:13 verse is reconciled when it is placed alongside the rest of the Verses where it belongs, which I posted.

Rom 8:12-17
12) Therefore, brethren,
we are debtors,
not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the sons of God.
15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;
but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,
whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that we are the children of God:
17) And if children, then heirs;
heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;
if so be that we suffer with him,
that we may be also glorified together.

 

[Doug Melven]

One real concern about the OSAS idea is how it seems to suggest continuing in sin doesn't matter.

No, it assures those who have doubts.
The enemy will cause us to doubt anything and everything.
When people begin to doubt there relationship with God then they try to rectify it or they just end up giving up.
The problem with trying to rectify there relationship is they end up trying to please God by there works, which is an impossible task
Those who are plagued with doubts bear no fruit.
Nobody can do enough works to please God.

 

[Oldmantook]

.
Well, I had noticed you only Posted Rom. 8:13 to make your point, and thereby skipping over all of the verses which make the context for that averse, therefore I posted the whole Context in which your one verse was spoken, so that you, as well as everyone else could judge the validity of you argument, I was not skipping anything, the 8:13 verse is reconciled when it is placed alongside the rest of the Verses where it belongs, which I posted.

Rom 8:12-17
12) Therefore, brethren,
we are debtors,
not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the sons of God.
15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;
but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,
whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that we are the children of God:
17) And if children, then heirs;
heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;
if so be that we suffer with him,
that we may be also glorified together.

Simply cutting and pasting a passage does not explain anything. You would have to EXPLAIN to me how you reconcile v.13 with the rest of these verses which you have avoided doing. Scripture cannot contradict itself. Shall I continue to wait for your detailed explanation?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why is OSAS popular?
We already know we are all safe in Christ's hands, without the OSAS idea--

That we are safe in Christ's hands and that we will never be lost are one in the same teaching.

One real concern about the OSAS idea is how it seems to suggest continuing in sin doesn't matter.

It only suggests that to those who refuse to believe it. Despite how often this idea is floated by critics of OSAS - I have never met or talked with anyone in my entire life who believed or taught that sin doesn't matter.

If it's impossible to lose salvation, then we could do any sin and never confess, never repent, never worry.

You could do anything you want I suppose. But I have never known of any born again person who could live long that way - nor do I believe that a person has ever existed with the Spirit of God within them who could or did live long that way.

 

[JIMINZ]

Simply cutting and pasting a passage does not explain anything. You would have to EXPLAIN to me how you reconcile v.13 with the rest of these verses which you have avoided doing. Scripture cannot contradict itself. Shall I continue to wait for your detailed explanation?

.
Hmmmm my answer was.

Once again you are correct, sin is the only thing which can separate us from God, you won't get any argument from me on that.

Habitual sin in the life of someone, makes him a sinner, no matter what he might call himself.

If sin is the fruit this person is producing, then he is not a Christian.

We are not debtors to the Flesh, we are the Children of God, we are Heirs of God with Christ, we have the Holy Spirit as our witness, we have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear.

I have received the Grace of God unto Salvation, I do not walk after the Flesh, but after the Spirit.

I have not received the spirit of bondage again that I should fear.
Do you fear?

Why are you sooooo condescending?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem...they end up trying to please God by there works, which is an impossible task
Those who are plagued with doubts bear no fruit.
Nobody can do enough works to please God.

Then what does this verse mean?

“His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.“ (Matthew 25:23).

 

[marineimaging]

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