What's a good response to the equating of catering same sex weddings with Jim Crow laws?

[redleghunter]

is being a Hindu part of God's design?

The design is one man and one woman. The religion is irrelevant.

he also forbid murder...except for gays its OK to murder them.
but not one rule against have more than one wife.

Well it sounds like you and God have some issues to hash out.

 

[SilverBear]

The design is one man and one woman. The religion is irrelevant.


Well it sounds like you and God have some issues to hash out.

because I'm not agreeing with your views and beliefs?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Where is skin color or race listed as a sin in Holy Scriptures?

Those who believe it can find any number of verses to support their views.

Could you provide some examples of such verses? Thanks.

Still waiting.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Probably the most common argument used by those in favour of making it illegal for a bakery to refuse catering a same sex wedding is as follows:
Refusing to cater a gay wedding is like refusing to give service to a black person.

That is absolutely false, even rediculious, and likely a very clear attempt for Gays to deceive the small minded into thinking that all there is to it so it must be wrong. There is nothing wrong with black in the eyes of God, but there is a lot wrong with Gay, nothing more to it.

It's not whether or not a business is required to give service to homosexuals, but rather whether or not a business is required to endorse an act or organization.

First it's about the endorsement, and that leads to not doing business, but I think that's what you're saying, so we agree.

 

[SilverBear]

That is absolutely false, even rediculious, and likely a very clear attempt for Gays to deceive the small minded into thinking that all there is to it so it must be wrong. There is nothing wrong with black in the eyes of God, but there is a lot wrong with Gay, nothing more to it.



First it's about the endorsement, and that leads to not doing business, but I think that's what you're saying, so we agree.

the KKK has a long history of bringing bibles to cross burning and lynchings. Holding a bible doesn't make their actions good or just just like holding up a bible doesn't make anti-Semitism or homophobia good or just.

 

[Kenny'sID]

the KKK has a long history of bringing bibles to cross burning and lynchings. Holding a bible doesn't make their actions good or just just like holding up a bible doesn't make anti-Semitism or homophobia good or just.

Why are you telling me that? I honestly don't see the connection to the post you replied to.

 

[Yarddog]

Probably the most common argument used by those in favour of making it illegal for a bakery to refuse catering a same sex wedding is as follows:
Refusing to cater a gay wedding is like refusing to give service to a black person.

You really don't understand the argument. It is not the same as an individual act. It is discrimination which is the same. One against sex and the other race.

 

[tulc]

I met a person in college who said (snip)

Cool story bro.
tulc(will share that with many friends of mine if it's ok?)

 

[redleghunter]

Cool story bro.
tulc(will share that with many friends of mine if it's ok?)

Sure. The man in question graduated and went into Shakespearean theatre. I think he eventually linked up with a fellow alumnus on a few projects. That would be Denzel Washington.

 

[tulc]

Wait...are you asking what scripture I was told supported Jim Crow laws? Because I can point those out:

20And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

I was told Ham was the darker of the sons (I'm not kidding) and that his son became darker still because of the curse. Therefore all black people were supposed to be servants of white people. Then another preacher later on taught a class that said the races shouldn't marry or have children together because "Issac told his son Jacob not to marry a Canaanite woman" (Gen. 28:1) When someone in the class asked him how that would apply to us, he said: "God made the races, and since he made the races different it would be a sin to mix together what He'd separated." I remember this stuff because i was so appalled by it i didn't go back to a Church for pretty much a decade after it. Again, it was a long time ago and I had to try and remember what they said so I could piece together what Scriptures they proabably used to justify it. Also this wasn't some southern State, this was Indiana in the early to mid 60's, we didn't have actual Jim Crow laws on the law books but there were a LOT of "unwritten" laws in my hometown. Heck, when I was growing up Italians weren't considered white people in my home town.
tulc(still has a bad taste in his mouth when he drives through Indiana)

 

[SilverBear]

Why are you telling me that? I honestly don't see the connection to the post you replied to.

You and the KKK are saying the same thing, and using personal religious belief as justification, only the minorities being spoken about is different.

Does the fact that the KKK use scripture to justify what they say and do make what they say and to moral of good? No, of course not. the same holds true no matter what the minority is.

 

[redleghunter]

the KKK has a long history of bringing bibles to cross burning and lynchings.

Maybe they should have read the Bibles first?

 

[redleghunter]

You and the KKK are saying the same thing, and using personal religious belief as justification, only the minorities being spoken about is different.

Does the fact that the KKK use scripture to justify what they say and do make what they say and to moral of good? No, of course not. the same holds true no matter what the minority is.

This above is really a poisoning of the well technique.

The KKK was and is a violent extremist group. Lumping them in with bakers and florists is just reckless rhetoric.

You automatically exclude religious conscience on behaviors clearly sinful as defined by Holy Scriptures.

The point made over and over again is a person's color or race is not sin and is not Biblical because the Bible was written by non white middle east and Greek people.

No matter how many times you state skin color=sexual identity it still fails.

Sure there will always be psychotics, jerks and bigots who will conduct violence and discrimination on anyone different from themselves. History is full of jerks.

But don't label Christians who have sincere religious convictions based on God's Holy standards in His Holy Scriptures. Homosexuality is listed among many sins as preventing a person to enter God's Kingdom:

REVELATION 22:15; 1 CORINTHIANS 6:9–10; GALATIANS 5:19–21; EPHESIANS 5:5; 1 TIMOTHY 1:9; HEBREWS 12:14

Revelation 22: NASB
14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

1 Corinthians 6: NASB
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5: NASB
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ephesians 5: NASB
3But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

1 Timothy 1: NASB
8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Hebrews 12: NASB
14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.


There is however good news for those who put on Christ:

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[SolomonVII]

Are you going to provide the Biblical passages which convince you the Holy Scriptures teach Jim Crow?

I did not ask for someone else's eisegesis.

That is the proper question to ask.

If the passages don't convince any of us, then why should we believe that anyone else is truly convinced.

People found out long ago that they could use religion as a cudgel to drive home the evil that they were intent on doing all along.
Sincere belief certainly can be wrong, but it is based in conviction.

 

[SilverBear]

This above is really a poisoning of the well technique.

The KKK was and is a violent extremist group. Lumping them in with bakers and florists is just reckless rhetoric.

You automatically exclude religious conscience on behaviors clearly sinful as defined by Holy Scriptures.

and racists and members of the KKK will also say their actions are guided by their religious conscience and are directed against behaviors God has condemned.

The point made over and over again is a person's color or race is not sin and is not Biblical because the Bible was written by non white middle east and Greek people.

leaving aside the biblical interpretations about Noah's three sons being the progenitors of the races of man and that both middle easterners and Europeans are all descended from Japheth. - Greeks are Caucasians

No matter how many times you state skin color=sexual identity it still fails.

I'm not saying that

I'm saying that racism is indistinguishable from homophobia.

But don't label Christians who have sincere religious convictions based on God's Holy standards in His Holy Scriptures.

like racists

 

[tulc]

That is the proper question to ask.

If the passages don't convince any of us, then why should we believe that anyone else is truly convinced.

What was asked was "What Scriptures did they use?" not "Convince me Jim Crow laws are how Christians should live today". See the difference?

People found out long ago that they could use religion as a cudgel to drive home the evil that they were intent on doing all along.
Sincere belief certainly can be wrong, but it is based in conviction.

which would be nice if there was any way to tell the difference between someones "sincerely held religious belief" and someone "using Scripture to prop up doing what they want". If there's some sort of test you're aware of it would be interesting to hear about it.
tulc(is just curious)

 

[jazzflower92]

What was asked was "What Scriptures did they use?" not "Convince me Jim Crow laws are how Christians should live today". See the difference?


which would be nice if there was any way to tell the difference between someones "sincerely held religious belief" and someone "using Scripture to prop up doing what they want". If there's some sort of test you're aware of it would be interesting to hear about it.
tulc(is just curious)

I think the problem is a lot of progressive don't give a hoot, and as a result become ignorant to the basis of conservative beliefs. It also comes from their belief in the fact that homosexual practice isn't a sin, and thus kind of can be self-righteous about enforcing the view on others despite saying that conservatives are the ones self-righteous.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You and the KKK are saying the same thing, and using personal religious belief as justification, only the minorities being spoken about is different.

Does the fact that the KKK use scripture to justify what they say and do make what they say and to moral of good? No, of course not. the same holds true no matter what the minority is.

Not even close to the same thing. This is a Christian website and believe it or not, some of us develope "personal beliefs" around what the bible teaches, and mine are nothing like the KKK's.

But all that aside, everything you just said is your personal belief, and you dare use your beliefs as justification to tell me what I should think, even after you just reprimanded me for doing the same thing?

 

[redleghunter]

and racists and members of the KKK will also say their actions are guided by their religious conscience and are directed against behaviors God has condemned.

Two points.

First the KKK operates from hate and no matter how much they push a religious eisegesis it fails on the point of hate. See Matthew 5

Second someone morally opposed to sinful behavior is not acting from hate but aversion of sin. We should be doing so daily in our own lives seeking out with the discernment given us from the Holy Spirit to address the very sins in our own lives.

leaving aside the biblical interpretations about Noah's three sons being the progenitors of the races of man and that both middle easterners and Europeans are all descended from Japheth. - Greeks are Caucasians

There is absolutely no Biblical exegesis which supports this at all. Haters will find what they want to find.

I'm not saying that

I'm saying that racism is indistinguishable from homophobia.

What’s at issue here is not a Christian opposition to sin, but your very own stereotype of any opposition to LGBT is homophobia. This is a physician heal thy self situation.

like racists

A dead give away right there.

 

[SilverBear]

Not even close to the same thing. This is a Christian website and believe it or not, some of us develope "personal beliefs" around what the bible teaches, and mine are nothing like the KKK's.

But all that aside, everything you just said is your personal belief, and you dare use your beliefs as justification to tell me what I should think, even after you just reprimanded me for doing the same thing?

i din't tell you what to think. i just stated a fact