Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Dave L]

If you adopt a spiritual perspective, such that the spiritual TEMPLE. Is the Christian CHURCH? Then spiritual JERUSALEM in which the temple resides. Might be surrounding. Christian SOCIETY??

As I understand, according to Acts 2:30–31, Jesus presently reigns over earth on David's throne in heavenly Jerusalem above.

“So then, because he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne,” (Acts 2:30)

“David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay.” (Acts 2:31)

Paul says he must reign until the resurrection on the last day. When he defeats the last enemy death.

“For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death. For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. But when it says “everything” has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him.” (1 Corinthians 15:25–27)

 

[Sabertooth]

Their claim of a physical kingdom in the Papacy, Reformed, and Lutheran State Churches killed many nonconformists.

If we remember Nebuchadnezzar's dream,

"You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." Daniel 2:34-35

interpreted as,

"And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this." Daniel 2:44-45

we see that whoever takes up man-made arms to try to bring this to pass, missed the memo that it will not be man-made, when it happens.

It will not be brought about by M-16s, AK-47s, nuclear warheads or anything else man-made. It will be established by God's power, alone.

 

[dqhall]

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

Millennialists quoted Revelation to further their cause. Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea and adviser to Constantine published a history of the church up to about 325 AD. He had been alive during part of the pre-Constantine church persecutions before Christianity was legalized. In his "Ecclesiastical History,"
Eusebius published some early church leaders' objections to Revelation indicating it was a forgery not written by the Apostle John, but by an impostor named Cerinthus.

 

[συνείδησις]

?

Is the "?" regarding David or Abraham? If David, I may not be entirely correct. I thought I had read that David's border extended to Egypt, but I can't find the verse. It did extend to the Euphrates.

David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates. 2 Samuel 8:3​

 

[συνείδησις]

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, it comes without observation, and is within you.

It comes inwardly first, then visibly. Otherwise why would Jesus tell his disciples to pray "Thy kingdom come" when it was already within them.

 

[Dave L]

It comes inwardly first, then visibly. Otherwise why would Jesus tell his disciples to pray "Thy kingdom come" when it was already within them.

The kingdom will have fully arrived with the New Heavens and Earth. This is the kingdom restored that Jesus said no one knows the day or hour.

 

[Hank77]

Israel wasn't Abraham. Abraham has yet to inherit the land. GOD will not let that promise go unfilled (a promise backed by a blood covenant).

Who are the fathers that the scripture is referring to? Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are the fathers the promise was made to. To deny that Abraham is a father to Israel is not scriptural.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

What theory does this fit under? Is it a physical kingdom? If so, is it biblical? Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world.

if you want to know what the Bible teaches assemble all the verses on a subject and all the verses that tell you how to interpret the subject. This is where context can be established and if you are tracking right there are no contradictions. So there is a good many verses that show that Jesus is the kingdom and being saved is entering the kingdom so a spiritual kingdom is something that is true. There also is the promise of a physical kingdom with specifics that contradict the idea that it is only a spiritual kingdom. Jesus in John 18 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” This does make a distinction. In Duet the law for the prophet says a prophet must be correct in what he says will happen or he is a presumptuous prophet; the false prophet was to be stoned to death. Peter says no prophecy is of any private interpretation. So assemble all the verses and see what it says and make sure the prophet is not privately interpreted and what he said has come to pass. The one brother who quoted Zech 14 showed in one quote with these rules that Zech 14 has never been fulfilled. In this chapter alone the prophet says on a day when Jerusalem is overrun the LORD will come with His saints. It says on that day His feet will stand on the MT of Olives and it will split in two and form both a new valley and a river that flows year round. It says that on this day it is dark in the daytime and bright at night and that those destroyed will have their eyes explode. It says in that day the LORD will be king over all the earth. It says in that day they shall say the LORD is one. This is Jesus at His 2nd coming now being called by the name Israel used for God , If you look at Rev there is a time when the angels proclaim the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ and He shall reign forever. Dan 2 shows the stone cut with out hands descending and crushing the image of the kingdom of man and this stone becomes a mountain that covers the whole earth and leaves no trace of the image of the beasts and this mountain is a kingdom that has no end. In Rev 20 we see Satan bound for 1000 years and the nations who were declared all to be deceived no longer deceived for 1000 years. We see the beast and false prophet both thrown into the lake of fire and after 1000 years Satan is released to deceive one last time. When he is finished and mounts one last rebellion that LORD consumes them with fire as they surround Jerusalem. Satan is then thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet still are. You see a literal approach hold to the scriptural mandate that what the prophet says will happen it must happen. This eschalogical timeline will run through a 70th week of Daniel and the final 42 months with the mark of the beast and the abomination of desolation and everything in there coming to pass as fact. Your hermaneutics will determine your eschatology. The literalist will confine himself withing the confines of scripture. This individual will believe the Bible history like a global flood, the miracles and hold to what the word says on sin because a straight forward reading of the text is clear on these issues. The literalist has this now going for him as current events are lined up for literal fulfilments. Daniel speaks of the middle of the week the sacriifice being stopped. Rev shows in the middle of the week the antichrist survives a mortal wound and from then on declares himself to be some sort of God and the mark of the beast and the image of the beast are enforced on the same timeline. The fact Israel is a nation and they have prepared everything for the resumption of the sacrifice is key. Read 2 thess 2 as it speaks of the coming of the Lord will not happen until the man of sin is revelaed, the son of perdition who will stand in the temple and claim to be above all that is God. There are too many places telling the same story from different perspectives. God's word will overtak this generation.

 

[Dave L]

if you want to know what the Bible teaches assemble all the verses on a subject and all the verses that tell you how to interpret the subject. This is where context can be established and if you are tracking right there are no contradictions. So there is a good many verses that show that Jesus is the kingdom and being saved is entering the kingdom so a spiritual kingdom is something that is true. There also is the promise of a physical kingdom with specifics that contradict the idea that it is only a spiritual kingdom. Jesus in John 18 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” This does make a distinction. In Duet the law for the prophet says a prophet must be correct in what he says will happen or he is a presumptuous prophet; the false prophet was to be stoned to death. Peter says no prophecy is of any private interpretation. So assemble all the verses and see what it says and make sure the prophet is not privately interpreted and what he said has come to pass. The one brother who quoted Zech 14 showed in one quote with these rules that Zech 14 has never been fulfilled. In this chapter alone the prophet says on a day when Jerusalem is overrun the LORD will come with His saints. It says on that day His feet will stand on the MT of Olives and it will split in two and form both a new valley and a river that flows year round. It says that on this day it is dark in the daytime and bright at night and that those destroyed will have their eyes explode. It says in that day the LORD will be king over all the earth. It says in that day they shall say the LORD is one. This is Jesus at His 2nd coming now being called by the name Israel used for God , If you look at Rev there is a time when the angels proclaim the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ and He shall reign forever. Dan 2 shows the stone cut with out hands descending and crushing the image of the kingdom of man and this stone becomes a mountain that covers the whole earth and leaves no trace of the image of the beasts and this mountain is a kingdom that has no end. In Rev 20 we see Satan bound for 1000 years and the nations who were declared all to be deceived no longer deceived for 1000 years. We see the beast and false prophet both thrown into the lake of fire and after 1000 years Satan is released to deceive one last time. When he is finished and mounts one last rebellion that LORD consumes them with fire as they surround Jerusalem. Satan is then thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet still are. You see a literal approach hold to the scriptural mandate that what the prophet says will happen it must happen. This eschalogical timeline will run through a 70th week of Daniel and the final 42 months with the mark of the beast and the abomination of desolation and everything in there coming to pass as fact. Your hermaneutics will determine your eschatology. The literalist will confine himself withing the confines of scripture. This individual will believe the Bible history like a global flood, the miracles and hold to what the word says on sin because a straight forward reading of the text is clear on these issues. The literalist has this now going for him as current events are lined up for literal fulfilments. Daniel speaks of the middle of the week the sacriifice being stopped. Rev shows in the middle of the week the antichrist survives a mortal wound and from then on declares himself to be some sort of God and the mark of the beast and the image of the beast are enforced on the same timeline. The fact Israel is a nation and they have prepared everything for the resumption of the sacrifice is key. Read 2 thess 2 as it speaks of the coming of the Lord will not happen until the man of sin is revelaed, the son of perdition who will stand in the temple and claim to be above all that is God. There are too many places telling the same story from different perspectives. God's word will overtak this generation.

There are many reasons Christ's kingdom is spiritual and will never be physical. As I stated, Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, it comes without observation, and is within you.

His kingdom is eternal, not 1000 long. Peter places Jesus on David's Throne now, in Heavenly Jerusalem above Acts 2:30–31. Jeconiah's curse prevents Jesus, his offspring through Mary, from ever ruling in earthly Jerusalem. (this is one reason the Jews reject Christ). If in Revelation 20 Satan cannot deceive the nations during the Millennium, then only believers remain to attack the camp of the saints at the end of the world. etc., etc.

 

[MartyF]

How are your beliefs different from Gnosticism?

 

[Dave L]

How are your beliefs different from Gnosticism?

How do you think they are similar?

 

[MartyF]

How do you think they are similar?

They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual

But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world.

Standard Gnosticism.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

There are many reasons Christ's kingdom is spiritual and will never be physical. As I stated, Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, it comes without observation, and is within you.

His kingdom is eternal, not 1000 long. Peter places Jesus on David's Throne now, in Heavenly Jerusalem above Acts 2:30–31. Jeconiah's curse prevents Jesus, his offspring through Mary, from ever ruling in earthly Jerusalem. (this is one reason the Jews reject Christ). If in Revelation 20 Satan cannot deceive the nations during the Millennium, then only believers remain to attack the camp of the saints at the end of the world. etc., etc.

you have made a couple erroneous conclusions. That there will be many born during the millennium and the nations who were deceived enjoy a 1000 year period without deception. When Satan is loosed those on the earth will face another choice. This kingdom on earth is a kingdom that does not end . When the new Jerusalem descends Jesus is still king. The genealogy of Mary is recorded in Luke through Nathan not Solomon and thus dodges the curse of Jeconiah and this is tied to the genealogy of all start with the promise of the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of this world if Jesus would bow down and worship him. This shows that man who was given dominion over the earth had lost that dominion to Satan. In Rev it is then that the angels proclaim the transfer that the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of our God and his Christ. I showed two rules for interpreting the scriptures and grant that the kingdom is both spiritual but also is going to be historical. The church has not replaced Israel. The law of the prophets has established that these things must take place. Dan said when the stone cut with out hands establishes the kingdom there will be no trace of the previous kingdoms that they will be ground to powder and blown away while the kingdom covers the whole earth and will have not end. Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. This is future and you need be careful not to ad or take away from the book of Rev as the literal view makes sense and by denying these prophecies as future and relevant you might be on the wrong side of that blessing or curse that is included in Rev.

 

[Dave L]

Standard Gnosticism.

It would help if you could point out specific areas of similarity.

 

[Dave L]

you have made a couple erroneous conclusions. That there will be many born during the millennium and the nations who were deceived enjoy a 1000 year period without deception. When Satan is loosed those on the earth will face another choice. This kingdom on earth is a kingdom that does not end . When the new Jerusalem descends Jesus is still king. The genealogy of Mary is recorded in Luke through Nathan not Solomon and thus dodges the curse of Jeconiah and this is tied to the genealogy of all start with the promise of the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of this world if Jesus would bow down and worship him. This shows that man who was given dominion over the earth had lost that dominion to Satan. In Rev it is then that the angels proclaim the transfer that the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of our God and his Christ. I showed two rules for interpreting the scriptures and grant that the kingdom is both spiritual but also is going to be historical. The church has not replaced Israel. The law of the prophets has established that these things must take place. Dan said when the stone cut with out hands establishes the kingdom there will be no trace of the previous kingdoms that they will be ground to powder and blown away while the kingdom covers the whole earth and will have not end. Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. This is future and you need be careful not to ad or take away from the book of Rev as the literal view makes sense and by denying these prophecies as future and relevant you might be on the wrong side of that blessing or curse that is included in Rev.

Where do the "born in the Millennium" come from if all the populace have glorified bodies and do not marry?

 

[Hank77]

Their claim of a physical kingdom in the Papacy, Reformed, and Lutheran State Churches killed many nonconformists.

You would have to be more specific for me to understand what you are referring to. But I would rather stick more closely to your OP.

Only in the sense of Christians being lead by the Holy Spirit to live as though the Christ were physically present. This would indeed be a partial, literal "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
Whether St Augustine believed that after the Second Coming the new heaven and new earth would be a restoration of the old or complete new creations I have never been able to clearly see. If he believed as amil. Sam Storms does, it would be a restoration to the original state before the Fall.

 

[MartyF]

It would help if you could point out specific areas of similarity.

I just quoted you.

 

[Dave L]

You would have to be more specific for me to understand what you are referring to. But I would rather stick more closely to your OP.

Only in the sense of Christians being lead by the Holy Spirit to live as though the Christ were physically present. This would indeed be a partial, literal "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
Whether St Augustine believed that after the Second Coming the new heaven and new earth would be a restoration of the old or complete new creations I have never been able to clearly see. If he believed as amil. Sam Storms does, it would be a restoration to the original state before the Fall.

The Church is the body of Christ, it has no unbelievers. It is not a church state nor is it a physical institution.

 

[Hank77]

Is the "?" regarding David or Abraham? If David, I may not be entirely correct. I thought I had read that David's border extended to Egypt, but I can't find the verse. It did extend to the Euphrates.

David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates. 2 Samuel 8:3​

No my question was in regards to Abraham. Abraham was given the same promise as his son and grandson.

 

[Dave L]

I just quoted you.

You are accusing me of gnosticism without furnishing examples. I would like to see proof of your claims.