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Creation and Causality

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What you're proposing is lower than a speculation because I didn't see where you even define the mechanics of what you're speculating about.

This isn't really a physics forum, so I'm not going to embark on modeling a possible mechanics under the hood of our reality. This isn't really a physics forum I can generally describe a few models that I can personally think are viable in context of your questions.

You are free to come up with another definition of causality, so long as it models reality as we know it. The Christian's task is to think up a form of causality which is consistent with both what we observe in reality and also creation out of nothing.

Term "nothing" in most religious settings generally means "chaos". Even in genesis you have God organizing the world out of chaos.

So, the idea of "nothing out of something" is more like a concept of order out of chaos. Fundamentalists tend to look at these terms literally, but the literal term of "nothing" is, of course nonsensical, because it refers to non-existing things, or negation of something.

Hence, it's not a causal relationship where God would conjure something up out of absolute "nothingness". Of course, semantically it's absurd and self-negating concept.

Saying that there could be some kind of overlay that mimics causality while causal relations are truly processed elsewhere fails across the board, scientifically speaking:

1. It does not make predictions
2. It does not use the least amount of assumptions
3. It is not observed
4. It is not even fully defined

Of course it fails across the board when it comes to the reductionist approach to science that you describe above in a sense that we are discussing the "fringe of reality" that's not even accessible to us. I'll go point by point here:

1) Predictions would align with what we currently observe in any case or model. That's why we still have a dozen explanations of quantum phenomenon. All of these predict quantum phenomenon retrospectively, but it doesn't really tell us which one is likely correct.

As such, as some may think, the embarrassing part of quantum physics is that there's a broad distribution of consensus over which one is correct. You would think that physicists would overwhelmingly agree on a few, but that's not the case, and I actually think it's a good thing. The moment we agree on everything will be the moment of the scientific dead-end in general.

2) Again, I'm not sure that the least amount of assumption is applicable in the case where all we have is assumptions. Such concept doesn't even work in examining known reality all the time. It's a good principle to follow, but it's not an absolute principle.

3) Of course, but neither are electrons or subatomic particles. All we ever "observe" is a projection of reality in our conscious experience. For example, if we didn't have an eye sight as humanity, our knowledge would be very different than it is today, and our concept of "obeservation" would be tremendously different.

We work with what we have. We can say "we don't know" and stop there, but that's the fun in that?

4) This is not really a scientific board. Christianity is more of a sociological concept than it is physics, etc. Physicists, for example, would discount sociology as a pseud-science for the same exact reasons... it's too broad in its observations, there are too many degrees of freedom, etc. It doesn't make sociology any less useful, and it doesn't stop sociologists one bit.


In short, you are attempting to jam religion through a reductionist meat grinder, but you can't even do that with most of theoretical physics, because reductionism is a scientific dead-end, and we have various "heros" of physics beginning to advocating loosing up the requirements, with falsifiability likely being trashed first.

In short all we have is a broader model, because that's all we can do at this point. I would have to agree with you that any specifics about various human stories that we see in religious narratives are questionable, and you can certainly reject these as you do. That's a different topic of discussion.

But on the broader question of God, the primary idea is that matter behaves "intelligently" in a scope of the properties of matter, no matter how far you chunk it. What science does is explain how in terms of consistent ratios. The problem with that approach is that it doesn't give a clear model as to how we arrived with a reality that's able to communicate complex meaning to a vast and statistically unlikely collection of atoms that are walking and talking about what to have for dinner tonight. By itself that's a miraculous concept before we even get to these entities building reality structures that quite impressive.

When we consider the added layer of conscious experience, and not mere robotic processing of our being, there is a completely different ballpark of existence that we are talking about than what we derive pragmatically from reductionist models of science.

There's a confusion that science is opposite of religion, and that atheism is opposite of theism, and that's simply not the case. Atheism is a reduction of theism, and theism is extension of atheism. That's all it is. You are simply unwilling to "extend" your model unless your are given evidence that would fit that reductionist model... but you are getting nowhere with that model apart from digging around in "visible spectrum". We began scientific enterprise with these assumptions, and we rapidly discovered quite a bit about our immediate reality, but it's beginning to drop off and plateu fairly fast when we are running out of things to examine.

There's an inherent "resolution limit" to such methodology, and then we are back to telling each other stories, because that's all we can do beyond that.
 
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This isn't really a physics forum, so I'm not going to embark on modeling a possible mechanics under the hood of our reality. This isn't really a physics forum I can generally describe a few models that I can personally think are viable in context of your questions.

My brother has a PhD in physics. Go ahead and present your mechanics, preferably in layman's terms; but if that's not possible, I can run it by my brother to see what he says.

However, I do notice you using the qualifier "possible" mechanics. This suggests that your proposition is not based on observation in any way. While I would prefer to withhold judgment on that until you present your case, everything that's been exchanged thus far between us will not allow me to give you the benefit of the doubt.



Term "nothing" in most religious settings generally means "chaos". Even in genesis you have God organizing the world out of chaos.

So, the idea of "nothing out of something" is more like a concept of order out of chaos. Fundamentalists tend to look at these terms literally, but the literal term of "nothing" is, of course nonsensical, because it refers to non-existing things, or negation of something.

Hence, it's not a causal relationship where God would conjure something up out of absolute "nothingness". Of course, semantically it's absurd and self-negating concept.

It seems that you agree with one of the main points of the OP, namely, that creatio ex nihilo is nonsensical. Why didn't you say this from the beginning?

Furthermore, why did you then go on to ignore my comment on this matter? I said,

The eternal existence of physical material would render God's existence moot. Given eternity, all possible outcomes must occur. Our universe is obviously a possible outcome.

You not only ignored this, but you redacted it when you quoted me in response. Why? Isn't this extremely relevant? If, this whole time, you've not been meaning to defend creatio ex nihilo - a position that is nearly universal among Christians - then not only should you have made your position on this clear from the beginning, but you should have defended creatio ex materia when I gave my explanation as to why it's wrong.

Either you aren't paying attention to what I'm saying, or else you're playing games with me. Neither is forgivable. I'm not looking at the rest of what you had to say in this post. I'm pretty fed up with you at this point. If you can show me a previous post of yours where you explicitly renounced creatio ex nihilio, then at least part of this miscommunication is on me and I'll accept the blame for that. If not, we're done here.
 
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My brother has a PhD in physics. Go ahead and present your mechanics, preferably in layman's terms; but if that's not possible, I can run it by my brother to see what he says.

:). My mother has a graduate degree in physics, and she taught and did research at university level, granted that it was in former USSR, but I'd say educational standards there were much more stringent. So, I have plenty people in my immediate environment to pitch my stories about how the world could work. I don't think this discussion is on the level of physics, because you are describing philosophical axioms that underline our assumptions in physics.

I'm not delusional-enough to think that we'll resolve the grand mysteries of reality on this forum. I use forum environment to practice structuring my own thoughts, and to self-correct where I think where self-correction is necessary in broader context of ideas that I didn't really think about before.

However, I do notice you using the qualifier "possible" mechanics. This suggests that your proposition is not based on observation in any way. While I would prefer to withhold judgment on that until you present your case, everything that's been exchanged thus far between us will not allow me to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Not to in a sense of access to directly observing at that level of reality. None of us do, at least not at this moment in time.

For example, even the quantum phenomenon in context of what we nominally observe is derived from a string of assumptions that we make about what we observe, and what actually is behind the observation. What we actually observe is interference patterns on the instruments. We don't observe any particles. We model that and tell some story, and assign ratios. The story is secondary to the ratios in hard science. So, if we had a different story behind chemistry, for example, and the same exact ratios that we derived through observation, then chemistry would still work.

Whenever we dive into theoretical science, it attempts to explore fringes by leveraging assumptions derived from "non-fringe" science.

I'm not doing anything drastically different in a scope of proposing that there's intelligent "cause" in context of what we do observe, predominantly because we observe and are able to observe.

So, the model of God is not conjured out of vacuum arbitrarily. At the core of it is the concept that our reality seems like it was arranged or driven to that arrangement by an intelligent causal factors.

It seems that you agree with one of the main points of the OP, namely, that creatio ex nihilo is nonsensical. Why didn't you say this from the beginning?

I thought that it's fairly obvious philosophical concept to address. The only people who I see argue that it's really "nothing" are fundamentalists who didn't think through what that would imply, and how we even derive "nothing" as colloquial concept that we throw around.

Furthermore, why did you then go on to ignore my comment on this matter? I said,

The eternal existence of physical material would render God's existence moot. Given eternity, all possible outcomes must occur. Our universe is obviously a possible outcome.

I don't believe that you are ignorant-enough to think that forum participation is my full-time job. None of us here answer every proposed concept. We answer what we find interesting or important to carry the discussion along.

If you want something to be specifically answered, then ask it again :). I don't assume that you intentionally ignore my arguments that you choose not to focus on. I'm a CEO of a tech company and a father of two, so I certainly know what it's like not to have enough time. I do this on my mental breaks to keep my mind fresh and challenged. I can't address all of your points or answer all of your questions. I generally try to explore issues that I personally find interesting and challenging in context of any given scope of argument.

But, to address your issue above:

1) You assume that in any chaotic state of reality there are necessary preconditions for various patterns of reality, and that's simply not the case when you have limiting attributes that will never coalesce into anything other than chaos.

2) Even in a scope of your eternal reality, you can have a concept of a Boltzman brain in context of God. There's a short story by Aasimov that explores that idea:

The Last Question -- Isaac Asimov

In context of possibility, there's no limiting reason as to why we wouldn't get both. After all we create digital worlds, right?

Thus, I'm not sure that your assumption is valid. I think it's methodologically valid at the level of exploring our reality as something that we occupy. I'm on board with that. But I have my reasons to extend that view to something more in context of philosophical models that I personally hold. And that in no way limits science. Scientific methodology as we find it today is self-limiting, and sooner or later it will have to abandon reductionism. Again, falsifiability will likely go first.

Either you aren't paying attention to what I'm saying, or else you're playing games with me. Neither is forgivable. I'm not looking at the rest of what you had to say in this post. I'm pretty fed up with you at this point. If you can show me a previous post of yours where you explicitly renounced creatio ex nihilio, then at least part of this miscommunication is on me and I'll accept the blame for that. If not, we're done here.

I don't have time to dig around what I said on this thread a month ago. Again, you seem to think that you are some special case where I have to spend any considerable time attempting to convince that you are wrong. It's a rather ego-driven concept. I'm not here to convince you that you are wrong. I'm here to discuss and adjust my own thinking where such adjustment is necessary.

If you benefit from such process, I'm happy. If you don't, then fine too.

But, when I'm literally the last person on this thread willing to discuss these concepts with you by pointing out a few holes in your model of any given possibility, and you resort to demands as though it's my job to do that :)... come on. Let's get past that and be a bit more mature.

If you want to discuss this issue, then do, if you don't then don't. I tend to focus on specifics, because it's difficult to address everything without ignoring something. Let's not be William Craig here, and dump a whole lot of reasons and then claim victory when some of these were not addressed. That would be a dishonest debate or conversation tactics.
 
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:). My mother has a graduate degree in physics, and she taught and did research at university level, granted that it was in former USSR, but I'd say educational standards there were much more stringent. So, I have plenty people in my immediate environment to pitch my stories about how the world could work. I don't think this discussion is on the level of physics, because you are describing philosophical axioms that underline our assumptions in physics.

I'm not delusional-enough to think that we'll resolve the grand mysteries of reality on this forum. I use forum environment to practice structuring my own thoughts, and to self-correct where I think where self-correction is necessary in broader context of ideas that I didn't really think about before.



Not to in a sense of access to directly observing at that level of reality. None of us do, at least not at this moment in time.

For example, even the quantum phenomenon in context of what we nominally observe is derived from a string of assumptions that we make about what we observe, and what actually is behind the observation. What we actually observe is interference patterns on the instruments. We don't observe any particles. We model that and tell some story, and assign ratios. The story is secondary to the ratios in hard science. So, if we had a different story behind chemistry, for example, and the same exact ratios that we derived through observation, then chemistry would still work.

Whenever we dive into theoretical science, it attempts to explore fringes by leveraging assumptions derived from "non-fringe" science.

I'm not doing anything drastically different in a scope of proposing that there's intelligent "cause" in context of what we do observe, predominantly because we observe and are able to observe.

So, the model of God is not conjured out of vacuum arbitrarily. At the core of it is the concept that our reality seems like it was arranged or driven to that arrangement by an intelligent causal factors.



I thought that it's fairly obvious philosophical concept to address. The only people who I see argue that it's really "nothing" are fundamentalists who didn't think through what that would imply, and how we even derive "nothing" as colloquial concept that we throw around.



I don't believe that you are ignorant-enough to think that forum participation is my full-time job. None of us here answer every proposed concept. We answer what we find interesting or important to carry the discussion along.

If you want something to be specifically answered, then ask it again :). I don't assume that you intentionally ignore my arguments that you choose not to focus on. I'm a CEO of a tech company and a father of two, so I certainly know what it's like not to have enough time. I do this on my mental breaks to keep my mind fresh and challenged. I can't address all of your points or answer all of your questions. I generally try to explore issues that I personally find interesting and challenging in context of any given scope of argument.

But, to address your issue above:

1) You assume that in any chaotic state of reality there are necessary preconditions for various patterns of reality, and that's simply not the case when you have limiting attributes that will never coalesce into anything other than chaos.

2) Even in a scope of your eternal reality, you can have a concept of a Boltzman brain in context of God. There's a short story by Aasimov that explores that idea:

The Last Question -- Isaac Asimov

In context of possibility, there's no limiting reason as to why we wouldn't get both. After all we create digital worlds, right?

Thus, I'm not sure that your assumption is valid. I think it's methodologically valid at the level of exploring our reality as something that we occupy. I'm on board with that. But I have my reasons to extend that view to something more in context of philosophical models that I personally hold. And that in no way limits science. Scientific methodology as we find it today is self-limiting, and sooner or later it will have to abandon reductionism. Again, falsifiability will likely go first.



I don't have time to dig around what I said on this thread a month ago. Again, you seem to think that you are some special case where I have to spend any considerable time attempting to convince that you are wrong. It's a rather ego-driven concept. I'm not here to convince you that you are wrong. I'm here to discuss and adjust my own thinking where such adjustment is necessary.

If you benefit from such process, I'm happy. If you don't, then fine too.

But, when I'm literally the last person on this thread willing to discuss these concepts with you by pointing out a few holes in your model of any given possibility, and you resort to demands as though it's my job to do that :)... come on. Let's get past that and be a bit more mature.

If you want to discuss this issue, then do, if you don't then don't. I tend to focus on specifics, because it's difficult to address everything without ignoring something. Let's not be William Craig here, and dump a whole lot of reasons and then claim victory when some of these were not addressed. That would be a dishonest debate or conversation tactics.

This is the last conversation remaining because the issue is resolved. You finally got around to saying that my main point in the OP was obvious all along; it certainly isn't, at least not to Christians, because it contradicts one of their foundational beliefs. Nevertheless the Christian and theist consensus here seems to be that they concede the point.

The purpose of the thread now is to be archived for future reference whenever a new Christian comes along promoting Genesis 1:1. Discussing logical axioms is off topic.
 
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